Help me not RETURN my Logos Platinum 4 - TERRIBLE download/design experience so far.

Page 2 of 4 (62 items) < Previous 1 2 3 4 Next >
This post has 61 Replies | 7 Followers

Posts 533
Jonathan Burke | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 27 2010 6:57 AM

Philip Spitzer:

Keep in mind these are my uninformed comments. I do not speak for Logos and the real reasons.


That was  very informative post, thanks. You made some excellent points about DVDs which I hadn't thought of, and you addressed comprehensively a number of questions I was considering.

Win 7 x64 | Core i7 3770K | 32GB RAM | GTX 750 Ti 2GB | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (system) | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (Logos) | WD Black 1.5 TB (storage) | WD Red 3 TB x 3 (storage) | HP w2408h 24" | First F301GD Live 30"

Posts 3768
Forum MVP
Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 27 2010 6:59 AM

nothing new to add, just my own experience.  On a slow DSL, it took me 24 hours to download about 9 GB.  I now probably have 12 or 13 (?) GB and I do it in about 2 or 3 hours on a fast cable connection.  Full indexing can take a few hours, but I sure love near instant search results on over 2600 resources.

Rest assure they listen to your comments and have pretty thick skins.  Several currently  "positive" L4ers were quite annoyed and semi-hostile sounding closer to the original launch--just a symptom of our frustrations and lack of insider knowledge and lack of attention to communicating with patience--but over time the L4 program and Logos company has won them over again.

All the best to you.  You have a great resource in your hands that keeps improving weekly/monthly!  And Logos does adjust their practices to adapt to real and relevant customer needs and requests. 

Welcome to the community!

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 1416
Wes Saad | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 27 2010 7:43 AM

Philip Spitzer:
In order for this to work they would have to burn people's libraries individually to disc or put the entire library in every mailing.

Just what you say. They could do what they did with Logos 3 - burn DVD's with the contents of specific libraries. If a user received a DVD with all the Platinum resources, that would save hours of download time. Even recognizing some resources will need updating and some resources purchased separately won't be on the DVD, it would still save time to have DVD's of the various libraries that are sold. This was done with L3, I'm not sure why it couldn't be done with L4. 

The download option has worked well for me. I prefer the download over a DVD since I have a fast connection and can leave it devoted to download for a while. I just recently reinstalled the Mac Alpha on my personal and office computers and the downloads completed in a matter of hours, almost 8 gig of resources, so the process is speedy enough for me, means I get the most up-to-date resources, and means I don't have to keep up with a DVD. But I recognize the download option doesn't work well for all people and a DVD option seems reasonable.

Posts 1646
SteveF | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 27 2010 7:53 AM

Philip Spitzer:

 

Ultralight:
6. You did not respond to the suggestion that you  provide some basic PAPER documentation with the DVDs.

Paper for which version? and how much information are you looking for the paperwork to contain?

 

Dear Philip:

Thank you for your many helpful responses. But I think this could be re-visited. Even if there was a "standard" piece of paper with an url to a "constantly-updated" WIKI page with the latest install information/issues.  Or a "read me" with some of the more common "issues" & "fixes."  [I am not aware of either of these being available]. Disclaimer: I still find it a challenge to find stuff on the WIKI, let alone, trying to search these Forums.

I realize many other new users do not bother checking out the documentation, but for those who do, something that was in large, colored, bright print might go a long way to helping this issue? If I had not had the experience of Libronix 3, plus its former news groups and this forum of beta testers, there would have been a number of things that might have stopped me in my tracks. But how many new users even know about these options?

 

Regards, SteveF

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 27 2010 7:58 AM

SteveF:
Thank you for your many helpful responses. But I think this could be re-visited. Even if there was a "standard" piece of paper with an url to a "constantly-updated" WIKI page with the latest install information/issues.  Or a "read me" with some of the more common "issues" & "fixes."  [I am not aware of either of these being available]. Disclaimer: I still find it a challenge to find stuff on the WIKI, let alone, trying to search these Forums.

I guess my recommendation would be a flier with the following...

Installation instructions....

Getting Started Instructructions...

How to use help instructions....

Additional helpful links (the wiki,forum, video support page, etc... with descriptions of each, for example)

Posts 1646
SteveF | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 27 2010 8:06 AM

Philip Spitzer:
I guess my recommendation would be a flier with the following.

As someone who "does" read the inclosures, I certainly could live with that suggestion.

Hopefully, it could also aid the OP of this thread?

 

Regards, SteveF

Posts 2934
Forum MVP
Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 27 2010 8:39 AM

In relation to downloading the resources versus installing from disc: 

I love the download mechanism for the resources...so too probably most everybody who used the old resource install method which involved popping multiple discs into your drive. I own over 100 cds/dvds of Logos resources purchased over the last 10 years. For me to install all my resources took hours of labor intensive disc popping. Now to install simply requires an overnight download (actually my 13 GB download on a recent install took about 3.5 hours over a cable connection) followed by a day-long indexing (which does not significantly slow down my computer, even on my netbook, but which I can always postpone and let complete overnight). 

I admit that it is cumbersome, but considering what is going on, I don't think it's that bad, especially compared to the alternative of DVD packaging, which inevitably requires a ton of downloading anyway because Logos is so good to us by constantly updating its resources.

Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org

Posts 533
Jonathan Burke | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 27 2010 9:37 AM

Chris Roberts:

Philip Spitzer:
In order for this to work they would have to burn people's libraries individually to disc or put the entire library in every mailing.

Just what you say. They could do what they did with Logos 3 - burn DVD's with the contents of specific libraries. If a user received a DVD with all the Platinum resources, that would save hours of download time. Even recognizing some resources will need updating and some resources purchased separately won't be on the DVD, it would still save time to have DVD's of the various libraries that are sold. This was done with L3, I'm not sure why it couldn't be done with L4.


I thought that was done with L4. I purchased the Portfolio Edition, and it came complete on a DVD. Of course by that time I had already downloaded, installed, and indexed it, but if I hadn't wanted to wait for that, I could have just installed the whole thing off the DVD.

Win 7 x64 | Core i7 3770K | 32GB RAM | GTX 750 Ti 2GB | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (system) | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (Logos) | WD Black 1.5 TB (storage) | WD Red 3 TB x 3 (storage) | HP w2408h 24" | First F301GD Live 30"

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 27 2010 9:41 AM

Jonathan Burke:
Of course by that time I had already downloaded, installed, and indexed it

I have a feeling this is the case for most people. While the process of downloading it and installing does take a while, its less time the the total time of waiting for a DVD in the mail and then installing it, as well as running updates to get it current. However I recognize that for many DVD may be the only option either for download limits, connection speed/stability, or maybe for those outside the US.

 

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 27 2010 9:51 AM

And having found an L3 disk hiding on a shelf a month after a re-install, and realizing that I'd never installed a resource that I forgot I had purchased....

I like the download design.

It takes me about 3 or 4 hours to index, maybe a few hours more for download of resources...for me, it's a worthwhile tradeoff..the peace of mind knowing that I haven't forgotten to load something I paid for...for the inconvience of leaving my laptop on over night.

 

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 706
Jerry Bush | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 27 2010 10:43 AM

Ditto to Edwin above.

Jerry

iMac (2019 model), 3Ghz 6 Core Intel i5, 16gb Ram, Radeon Pro Graphics. 500GB SSD.

Posts 1931
Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 27 2010 11:49 AM

Jeremy:
A missionary on the mission field doesn't need a fast internet connection to run Logos, but one is probably needed to install Logos. Remember this process only needs to be done once.

Speaking as a missionary on the field, this is true. However, there are a few big problems:

1. The last media disk is based on 4.0a which is seven months old. 4.0a was argueably missing many core features and has had many bugs fixed since then.  The updates are multiple gigabytes and in many missions locations, this is a physical impossibility. 

2. Even if you decide you are happy to run an old version of Logos 4, let's say you want to add a small book to your library that you need for your work in the field. By small, I mean many of the titles that are 10mb or so, using dialup internet (albeit slow).  The current architecture makes this impossible because you cannot download any new purchases until you download all the updates first which are gigabytes large if you are still at media DVD version 4.0a.

3. Even if there was a current media DVD disk with 4.0c, keep in mind that the resources that are on this disk are what comes standard in the Platinum edition (at least that is what I have been told).  That means if you buy any of the other download only stuff like the new Zondervan materials, the only way you can get them is downloading gigabytes of information.

This is a very big problem and creates a large digital divide for missions workers.

Posts 1931
Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 27 2010 12:00 PM

Philip Spitzer:
I can think of several reasons for this. First, Logos has over 10,000 books. My library of 2,200ish is about 10 gigs or so I think. In order for this to work they would have to burn people's libraries individually to disc or put the entire library in every mailing.

The entire resource library of 10 gigs will fit on three DVDs. Do a fresh burn every four months and offer a subscription/one off purchase service.  I guarantee you people in the field will gladly pay for these if this is the only way they can stay current.  The software industry has been doing stuff like this for years.

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 27 2010 12:26 PM

Donovan R. Palmer:
The entire resource library of 10 gigs will fit on three DVDs. Do a fresh burn every four months and offer a subscription/one off purchase service.  I guarantee you people in the field will gladly pay for these if this is the only way they can stay current.  The software industry has been doing stuff like this for years.

My library of 2200 resources is 10 gigs. With over 10,000 titles total that would be 15 dvds, assuming what I don't have is comparable size wise to what I do have. Loading each of those resources, and then the computer figuring out which ones it needs to transfer and which it does not, would be a very tedious experience.

the other option is to have a DVD or two with the most used resources on it to alleviate some of the downloading, but that doesn't seem like a good solution to me.

Posts 16
Ultralight | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 27 2010 12:53 PM

Quick notes.  I'm surprised by how many responses this thread has generated.  I do appreciate all the responses - including one from Bob.  Not often does  the president of a company respond in a forum.   Thanks also for all who encouraged me to stay the course.

A final notes and then I'll just read any further responses:

1. Dan from Logos did call this morning to check up on how the install went.  Appreciate the quick response. 

In our conversation, Dan did address most of my concerns.  One of the challenges he noted about DVD updates is that sometimes, with upgraded editions of 4, the content of the library also need to be updated . This precludes sending out just the DATA on a DVD because even the data is not static as the software changes.  Though I have a technical background, I admit that I am not aware of this necessity.  So there are some technical difficulties to sending out even the content on DVD. 

He also noted that burning in house on double density DVDS (8 + gigs per DVD if I remember corrrectly) took too long which is why they press the DVDs.

2. The indexing of my Platinum plus a few resources finished in less than two hours so I was surprised at how fast it went  given that some reported overnight indexing.  I'm not sure if everything in my resource loaded but I assume so .

This shows me that there is a considerable RANGE of download and indexing time depending on connect speed and equipment.  Thus, per my earlier note - if Logos can give a more accurate up front information, that will prevent in accurate expectations which is what caused my initial concerns.

3. The digital divide for those overseas with slow connections then becomes an issue which I'd still love to see a physical solution.

4.  Finally, in rereading my posting, I realized that I was very pointed in my observation.  I hope that I was not unduly harsh in my tone.  I stand by the issues I raised but also ask anyone who think that I was unduly harsh in tone to let me know.

Blessings,

UL

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 27 2010 1:16 PM

Ultralight:
4.  Finally, in rereading my posting, I realized that I was very pointed in my observation.  I hope that I was not unduly harsh in my tone.  I stand by the issues I raised but also ask anyone who think that I was unduly harsh in tone to let me know.

I admit I haven't reread it, but I remember thinking it came across more passionate then harsh. I had no problem with it.

Posts 1374
nicky crane | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 27 2010 1:25 PM

It took me 4 days and 4 nights to download Logos4 Leaders  Library. Slow internet  connection in Albania.  I just bore with it till it was done.  I do appreciate that you don't lose everything if your internet connection fails or you need to reboot.  It would be helpful if the button said Pause download rather than cancel download.

I have, I think, a 3 gig memory on Windows Vista.  Logos 4 is a bit slow, but that's OK.

I didn't find the info until after I had ordered it that it needs lots of memory and a fast processor - i.e. I can't use L4 on my older computers.  That could have been a problem if I didn't have a new computer.  Also I had no idea about the size of the download till I started downloading.  I think the info should be put somewhere very clear, so that it would be impossible to order L4 without seeing it.  

Now I'm very happy with L4, despite minor irritations with slow response and notices that it has stopped responding.  It responds again if you give it a minute or so.  Tech support has been helpful when I have needed it, as have forums.  And I still have L3 on my old mini laptop for travelling.

I would like to know what I am  downloading in updates, and maybe be able to choose to download a resource but leave an update till later.  At the moment I have an internet limit of 2 GB a month, and am trying to decide whether to pay to increase that.  Main concern being Logos mega downloads!

Posts 18822
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 27 2010 1:29 PM

Donovan R. Palmer:

The software industry has been doing stuff like this for years.

Yes, but a lot of things the software industry has been doing for years are becoming obsolete. I think all the issues on both sides have been well discussed in this thread. The current situation is not good for those in the field without ready fast Internet access, but an alternative solution (essentially going back to the "unlock" method that was used in 3.0 and ditched for a variety of reasons -- mainly complexity for users and support costs) would not be good for most everyone else. Perhaps some hybrid solution could be cooked up, but it would take development time away from stabilizing the existing code and continuing to bring the 4.0 feature set up to the level many users expected it to be at when it first shipped. And it would probably cause Logos to cost more all around. If those who want the DVD option are willing to shoulder the increased cost by themselves, maybe it could work. But unfortunately those tend to be the folks with the least amount of disposable income (missionaries). Maybe it could be considered a cost of supporting missionaries in the field that others would be willing to take upon themselves...

Posts 5615
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 27 2010 1:47 PM

Rosie Perera:
Maybe it could be considered a cost of supporting missionaries in the field that others would be willing to take upon themselves...

Someone with a good internet connection could run a copy of Logos under the missionary's ID to download the latest software and resources, then they could backup the Logos install directory to a DVD or two, and send it to the missionary who would then restore the directory over his current install.

Wiki Links: Enabling Logging / Detailed Search Help - MacBook Pro (2014), ThinkPad E570

Posts 1931
Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 27 2010 2:09 PM

Rosie Perera:
Yes, but a lot of things the software industry has been doing for years are becoming obsolete.

It is only obsolete where downloading Logos 4 isn't a problem. There are parts of the world still using older, but reliable technologies for now.

But I also appreciate that the world where good access is does need to move on. In no way would I suggest that L4 needs to go back to the L3 architecture.

If those who want the DVD option are willing to shoulder the increased cost by themselves, maybe it could work.

It will cost and what has been voiced on here by others (including myself) is that we are willing to pay as this is the only way to use L4 where high speed connectivity is a problem.

 

Page 2 of 4 (62 items) < Previous 1 2 3 4 Next > | RSS