Help me not RETURN my Logos Platinum 4 - TERRIBLE download/design experience so far.

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This post has 61 Replies | 7 Followers

Posts 182
Deborah Mickens | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 27 2010 3:49 PM

Todd Phillips:

Rosie Perera:
Maybe it could be considered a cost of supporting missionaries in the field that others would be willing to take upon themselves...

Someone with a good internet connection could run a copy of Logos under the missionary's ID to download the latest software and resources, then they could backup the Logos install directory to a DVD or two, and send it to the missionary who would then restore the directory over his current install.

Todd,

I'm sure you are aware of our License Agreement, but I want to make sure that everyone else is aware of what our License Agreement says. If someone does send the missionary their ID's, resources and software, whoever does that would have to make sure to remove the missionary's licenses from their computer as it is outside the grounds of our License Agreement to have more than one person use the licenses. Specifically, our license agreement says: "The license goes with the user. Every user must purchase their own package. If you have a work machine and a laptop and they are both yours for your personal use, you may load it on both for your personal use - because the license goes with the user." Can you purchase one package and have two people use it? No. The license goes with the user. The license is a single user license."

More about the license agreement can be found here.

Deborah Mickens
Logos Bible Software, Marketing
dmickens@logos.com

Deborah Mickens
Logos Bible Software, Marketing
dmickens@logos.com

Posts 5615
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 27 2010 5:19 PM

Deborah Mickens:
I'm sure you are aware of our License Agreement, but I want to make sure that everyone else is aware of what our License Agreement says. If someone does send the missionary their ID's, resources and software, whoever does that would have to make sure to remove the missionary's licenses from their computer as it is outside the grounds of our License Agreement to have more than one person use the licenses. Specifically, our license agreement says: "The license goes with the user. Every user must purchase their own package. If you have a work machine and a laptop and they are both yours for your personal use, you may load it on both for your personal use - because the license goes with the user." Can you purchase one package and have two people use it? No. The license goes with the user. The license is a single user license."

Sorry, I should have qualified my statement.  I'm not suggesting that the other person actually use the software on the machine with the network--they just generate an install for the purpose of shipping it off.  It might even be that that machine is the missionary's home computer, and the one he takes with him to the field is his laptop.

Wiki Links: Enabling Logging / Detailed Search Help - MacBook Pro (2014), ThinkPad E570

Posts 652
Jeremy | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 27 2010 7:41 PM

This brings up a question I have. If you aren't connected to the internet and only get L4 through CDs, how will Logos remember your preferences and settings? Does it store them on your computer somewhere?

Posts 5615
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 27 2010 7:55 PM

Jeremy:

This brings up a question I have. If you aren't connected to the internet and only get L4 through CDs, how will Logos remember your preferences and settings? Does it store them on your computer somewhere?

Of course.  The Logos server is only backup, not primary.

Wiki Links: Enabling Logging / Detailed Search Help - MacBook Pro (2014), ThinkPad E570

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 29 2010 6:08 PM

We host our files at Amazon.com's servers, which we don't control and which sometimes have dramatically different performance (time of day, other loads from other customers, etc.... ?? we don't really know why)

So, I hate to ask the obvious question--but if you can't control the user's experience, and this specific part of your service is so critical to your user's experience, then why are you outsourcing it? Is the money you're saving really worth the problems your users are experiencing?

:-)

Russ

Posts 27938
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 29 2010 6:22 PM

Russ White:
So, I hate to ask the obvious question--but if you can't control the user's experience, and this specific part of your service is so critical to your user's experience, then why are you outsourcing it? Is the money you're saving really worth the problems your users are experiencing?

I think that if you had experience running a server farm you might want to restate this question. I have assumed that Logos outsourced because they recognized running a server farm was beyond their expertise. My frame of reference - the Pacific Northwest internet hub after Boeing ceased to host it. I would be far more uncomfortable with the system architecture for Logos 4 if Logos ran their own servers.

 

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 29 2010 6:37 PM

I think that if you had experience running a server farm you might want to restate this question. I have assumed that Logos outsourced because they recognized running a server farm was beyond their expertise.

You're assuming I've not had that experience. Bad assumption. But you're diving in the wrong direction, IMHO. My line of reasoning would be:

1. My customers rely on something I must outsource.

2. Their experience is apparently horrible in this regard (based on the replies on this thread--some people taking days to install the software).

3. Hmmm... What can I do about this? I have three choices, it seems.

3a. Don't outsource this, even if that means hiring someone with the experience and expertise in running the solution in-house, or some other arrangement.

3b. Rethink whether or not I want to go in an architectural direction that forces me to outsource this.

3c. Find some way to avoid the problem. Here I think there are some suggestions on the thread that could be helpful.

I'm not trying to beat up on Logos here (I am, after all, a huge proponent of Logos at my Seminary and Church), but it does seem like one common problem people encounter is with the synchronization pieces on install.To state that you don't know why something isn't running the way it should--something that touches your customer base in such a major way--and that you can't necessarily fix it--well, it just doesn't sound good, no matter why it might be that way. To go back to the original quote:

We host our files at Amazon.com's servers, which we don't control...

:-)

Russ

Posts 322
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 29 2010 7:48 PM

Lol...welcome to the world of cutting edge, highly efficient, bible software. 

Posts 27938
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 29 2010 7:51 PM

Russ White:
You're assuming I've not had that experience. Bad assumption.

My apologies; you'd given no indication of experience so you are correct that I had simply assumed.

Russ White:

2. Their experience is apparently horrible in this regard (based on the replies on this thread--some people taking days to install the software).

3. Hmmm... What can I do about this? I have three choices, it seems.

I'd take a modified 3c approach:

3d. Some of my users,a small but significant number,  have a horrible experience. How do I identify the factors common to those users and correct or minimize the effects of those factors on their experience?

and add a 4th point:

4. Can I design performance and stability into the product earlier in the development cycle?

We need to remember that the group that we see on the forums is not an unbiased statistical sample

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 232
AndyTheGreek | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 30 2010 4:33 AM

MJ. Smith:

I'd take a modified 3c approach:

3d. Some of my users,a small but significant number,  have a horrible experience. How do I identify the factors common to those users and correct or minimize the effects of those factors on their experience?

and add a 4th point:

4. Can I design performance and stability into the product earlier in the development cycle?

We need to remember that the group that we see on the forums is not an unbiased statistical sample

In a sense, your final point casts a shadow on your point 3d - we, on these forums, don't know what the overall total of customers who had, at some point, a horrible experience with Logos4. We know that not a few of the forum users have reported serious difficulties - some, like myself, overcame them and now use Logos4 more and more (although some may still use Logos3 as well) and others have given up on Logos4 and gone back to Logos3.Only Logos' customer support know how many users have reported serious issues (assuming they identify such stats)... The fact that some still report 20 minute+ wait times when phoning for support suggests that the Logos support team is still handling more support calls than they can manage which, after 7 months(?) of Logos4 being available is a bit concerning...

 

Posts 533
Jonathan Burke | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 30 2010 5:45 AM

Andy Bell:
The fact that some still report 20 minute+ wait times when phoning for support suggests that the Logos support team is still handling more support calls than they can manage which, after 7 months(?) of Logos4 being available is a bit concerning...

I doubt that those calls are all from people who have owned Logos 4 for 7 months. The majority of them are most likely to be new or recent users.

Win 7 x64 | Core i7 3770K | 32GB RAM | GTX 750 Ti 2GB | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (system) | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (Logos) | WD Black 1.5 TB (storage) | WD Red 3 TB x 3 (storage) | HP w2408h 24" | First F301GD Live 30"

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 30 2010 8:07 AM

The main point here being that we are ignorant...ignorant of a lot of background on these issues.

We don't have the statistical data on tech support calls, disgruntaled users, happy users, nor any of the overview that Logos has...so we tend to view the issue from our own "forumite" perspective...if we are a bit disappointed...we notice that there are a lot  of other posts that are similar....so we get the "yellow volkswagen" syndrome..

And even after all that we continue to act like we have a well rounded picture of things... Embarrassed

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 232
AndyTheGreek | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 30 2010 8:36 AM

Jonathan Burke:

Andy Bell:
The fact that some still report 20 minute+ wait times when phoning for support suggests that the Logos support team is still handling more support calls than they can manage which, after 7 months(?) of Logos4 being available is a bit concerning...

I doubt that those calls are all from people who have owned Logos 4 for 7 months. The majority of them are most likely to be new or recent users.

Indeed, and that's part of the point I was trying to make - the issues may not have gone away so new customers may be running into similar problems to those that existed at the start.

Then again, managing customer expectation (or failing to do so) is a major factor in customer satisfaction. Being told upfront in unequivocal terms that buying package X will result in a download of Y gb followed  by an index lasting several hours would possibly increase customer satisfaction.I'm not saying this info is not available  but it should be very conspicuous so that the customer realises that buying today will, probably, not result in using the software today...

And I know I've said this before and will probably say it many more times - giving the customer the ability to control the download of resources, to limit the first download to the user's choice of 'favourites' for example, would help someone get up and running quickly. The less used resources can then be downloaded over night and the never used resources are never downloaded. (I have made this suggestion ('pre-hide' resources) on the user voice pages) and I think it would make a big difference...

 

Posts 18822
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 30 2010 9:01 AM

Andy Bell:

Jonathan Burke:

Andy Bell:
The fact that some still report 20 minute+ wait times when phoning for support suggests that the Logos support team is still handling more support calls than they can manage which, after 7 months(?) of Logos4 being available is a bit concerning...

I doubt that those calls are all from people who have owned Logos 4 for 7 months. The majority of them are most likely to be new or recent users.

Indeed, and that's part of the point I was trying to make - the issues may not have gone away so new customers may be running into similar problems to those that existed at the start.

Then again, managing customer expectation (or failing to do so) is a major factor in customer satisfaction. Being told upfront in unequivocal terms that buying package X will result in a download of Y gb followed  by an index lasting several hours would possibly increase customer satisfaction.I'm not saying this info is not available  but it should be very conspicuous so that the customer realises that buying today will, probably, not result in using the software today...

 

Managing customer expectation would probably take care of a large percentage of the calls and dissatisfaction, but what troubles me more is that there still remain serious problems that some number of users are running into where they cannot even succesfully install. That should almost never happen on brand new software, unless the user hasn't got the computer specs that are required for the product or there is something faulty with their hard disk or something. That there are workarounds (if one calls Customer Service) is hardly consolation. If a person spends a couple hundred dollars (minimum) on some software, it should work right out of the box, and the installation process should be relatively easy and mostly hands-off, even if it involves a lot of waiting.

Posts 232
AndyTheGreek | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 30 2010 11:10 AM

Rosie Perera:

Managing customer expectation would probably take care of a large percentage of the calls and dissatisfaction, but what troubles me more is that there still remain serious problems that some number of users are running into where they cannot even succesfully install. That should almost never happen on brand new software, unless the user hasn't got the computer specs that are required for the product or there is something faulty with their hard disk or something. That there are workarounds (if one calls Customer Service) is hardly consolation. If a person spends a couple hundred dollars (minimum) on some software, it should work right out of the box, and the installation process should be relatively easy and mostly hands-off, even if it involves a lot of waiting.

I couldn't agree more - the actual installation should be a breeze. I've never had as much trouble installing a program as I did with Logos 4 and, as an IT professional, I install a lot of software.

As Logos provides many gb of resources, the large download is inevitable. However, a plain vanilla base package install (with no other resources involved) could provide a pre-built index, with a quick check post download to check that this index matches the installed resources. And there ought to be a way of adding extra resources to the index without needing a total reindex (although such functionality may exist?)

Posts 533
Jonathan Burke | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 30 2010 11:48 AM

Andy Bell:
Indeed, and that's part of the point I was trying to make - the issues may not have gone away so new customers may be running into similar problems to those that existed at the start.

I was thinking more about the fact that new users of any software typically have a learning curve to go through as they become accustomed to the product. From the many threads I've seen on this forum, the most common issues new users have are a result of unfamiliarity with the product rather than issues with the software. I had the same experience myself. Hardware issues are also not uncommon on this forum. I don't think it's about still outstanding problems with the actual software.

Win 7 x64 | Core i7 3770K | 32GB RAM | GTX 750 Ti 2GB | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (system) | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (Logos) | WD Black 1.5 TB (storage) | WD Red 3 TB x 3 (storage) | HP w2408h 24" | First F301GD Live 30"

Posts 1374
nicky crane | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 30 2010 12:14 PM

I had no problem installing Logos4, except the shock of seeing I had about 7 gigs to download, so 4 days to wait before I could use it!  It did refuse to open at one stage, but customer support mailed me how to sort that one out.  At the moment it's being very slow loading my 2 layouts: Reading, with lots of books open in separate tabs in one window, and Bible study, with 2 windows and various tabs.  They take a minute or 2 to open sometimes.  It sometimes announces that Logos 4 has stopped responding, but that's a lie - it's just like my dog - takes its time to decide to  obey!  

I keep discovering exciting new features of Logos 4.  Were I in America I should probably try to get to a camp, but I'm not, so choose to manage without.

Incidentally, Moe, what about putting your Logos 4 manuals into Logos format to save us foreigners the expense of postage.  I'd probably buy them if I could download them!

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 30 2010 12:48 PM

I just re-installed L4 from scratch after a format.

it was a breeze. i worked on my laptop while it downloaded all of the resources that I accidentally zapped...

That took about 6 hours...then It indexed for about 3 hours...I was still able to use my laptop....

 

all is well...

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 2934
Forum MVP
Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 30 2010 1:22 PM

In about 10 installs that I can count of Logos 4, I have not had any problems

Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org

Posts 18822
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 31 2010 7:33 PM

I am having my very first experience of indexing taking more than just a few hours (4 or thereabouts on my laptop). It ran overnight last night and by this morning still said it had 64 hours left (earlier yesterday it had said it was "only" 19 hours or something). I'm in transit in airports today and running on battery a lot, so I've had to pause it to avoid draining my battery. I don't know why it's taking so long this time. Nothing else has changed with my installation other than updating to 4.0d Beta 1.

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