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Christopher Grant | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Apr 3 2019 10:17 AM

Hello all.  I know that Logos is missing a lot of the liturgical books that we need as Orthodox, but I'm wondering if I am the only person that would really like to see the Orthodox packages support the Liturgical view in Verbum?

If you are Catholic you can click to the liturgical view and see the saints of the day, the daily readings, and the liturgical texts of the day.  If you're Orthodox, much of that material is missing (the week day Octoechos, Menaion, and Pentecostarion), but I would love to be able to see this.  I left a detailed criticism of the Orthodox base package based around a lot of these missing materials with my sales person, but he never got back to me (other than his initial note saying he'd be happy to sell me Logos 8).  What I'm not sure of is whether this is something that would be of value to most Orthodox Logos users, or if I'm just an outlier.

Do any of you miss this ability (and this content)?  

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 3 2019 1:09 PM

I agree it is important

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 3 2019 6:31 PM

Christopher Grant:

Hello all.  I know that Logos is missing a lot of the liturgical books that we need as Orthodox, but I'm wondering if I am the only person that would really like to see the Orthodox packages support the Liturgical view in Verbum?

My Question, some time back, was why is Orthodox on the Logos side of things instead of being on the Verbum side?

Some of the problem with not having the 'lot of the liturgical books that we need as Orthodox is the Faithlife business model.  All resources [books] have to pass the Community Pricing or the Pre-Pub process.  If the book can not find the needed number of current customers to pay for putting it into production then the book never gets into production.  That business model does keep Faithlife in business BUT there are some 260 Million Orthodox Christians and Faithlife is not selling well to them [as measured by the posts in this branch of the forum in the last year].  Why? Because most of the non Orthodox Christians have no use for an Orthodox liturgical book [[let alone more than one]] Three other 'groups' with 20 million, 15 million and 8 million also are not represented.  Current members are just not interested by buying resources aimed at those groups.  [[Except for books to try to talk those group members out of their current belief system and into the current members belief system]]

On the other hand Faithlife has made a start with Orthodox and some other 'groups'.  So there is hope.  But we do not have the sales numbers for those 'groups' including Orthodox so we have no idea if they will try again. [Are they making money on those 'experiments'.]  After all Verbum seems to be doing well and there was a time when many 'current customers' of back then would not buy anything that Verbum now sells.  But then there are 1.2 Billion Catholics.  

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 3 2019 7:11 PM

David Ames:
My Question, some time back, was why is Orthodox on the Logos side of things instead of being on the Verbum side?

I have one question and one answer. The question: why isn't the division liturgical/non-liturgical which would justify the two diverging? The answer: to your question and mine ...there are a significant number of people who have a view of Christianity that has only two parts: Protestant (good), Catholic (bad). A handful of them used to get very riled up in the forums if they saw the possibility of books labeled "canonical" that they personally did not use. Faithlife basically created Verbum to hide the Catholic materials from these people. This minority did not react to Orthodox because they did not know what canon they used, how they worshiped, what they believed so Orthodox didn't need "segregation". What followed was that the forums began to exhibit a broader range of beliefs, extending the knowledge of many people, and allowing Logos to develop features applicable to a subset of groups without riling people up. But FL recognized that there was sufficient differences in focus to require Verbum training and marketing separate from Logos training and marketing. Those in liturgical churches other than Catholic or those interested in Patristics simply mix and match according to their needs. I believe that if enough Orthodox users, especially clergy or seminaries, pushed to have Verbum expanded to include Orthodox because of the similarity of needs and training, they would be successful. But they need to prove there is a sufficient market. It is the other liturgical churches that I fear may get stranded needing features of both Logos and Verbum but having to run both to get them.

Mind you, this is strictly my personal take on the situation. And it does not address the subset of Catholics who would be unwilling to purchase something like Logos which is perceived as Evangelical ... but will purchase it branded with the name Verbum. Nor does it address the subset of Orthodox who would prefer the Evangelical Logos to the hated Catholic Verbum ... I think you get the picture of the tight ropes FL tries to tred.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 3 2019 7:30 PM

David Ames:
Why? Because most of the non Orthodox Christians have no use for an Orthodox liturgical book [[let alone more than one]]

Actually, they have no use because they have not learned how the use of Scripture by the Church is itself a source of understanding how the scripture was interpreted in the church. As long as Scripture is interpreted solely outside its use within the Church, the fullness of scripture will be missed.  Bishop Kallistos Ware: How to Read the Bible

Yes, this is a post that is strictly theological in violation of the guidelines so I'll toss out some relevant titles:

  • George, Timothy. Reading Scripture with the Reformers. Downers Grove, IL: IVP Academic: An Imprint of InterVarsity Press, 2011.
  • Peck, John A. Reading the Bible the Orthodox Way. Preachers Institute, 2014.
  • Adam, A. K. M., Stephen E. Fowl, Kevin J. Vanhoozer, and Francis Watson. Reading Scripture with the Church: Toward a Hermeneutic for Theological Interpretation. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Academic, 2006.
  • Hall, Christopher A. Reading Scripture with the Church Fathers. Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 1998.
  • Wilken, Robert Louis, Angela Russell Christman, and Michael J. Hollerich, eds. Isaiah: Interpreted by Early Christian and Medieval Commentators. Translated by Robert Louis Wilken, Angela Russell Christman, and Michael J. Hollerich. The Church’s Bible. Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, UK: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2007. (entire series)

There, I'm almost within the guidelines.

Addendum:

As D. Farkasfalvy points out, for Bernard “the liturgical use of a text offers a sort of interpretation approved by the church” (Farkasfalvy, 6).

Dennis E. Tamburello, “Bernard of Clairvaux (1090–1153),” ed. Donald K. McKim, Dictionary of Major Biblical Interpreters (Downers Grove, IL; Nottingham, England: InterVarsity Press, 2007), 190.

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The author, however, does not feel that the Alexandrian allegorizing is required for this end. On the contrary. He believes that the intelligent liturgical use of the psalms comes from the literal interpretation.

Martin McNamara, The Psalms in the Early Irish Church, vol. 165, Journal for the Study of the Old Testament Supplement Series (Sheffield: Sheffield Academic Press, 2000), 383.

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The feast originated in the Pentateuch as an offering of firstfruits, decreed for Israel on Mount Sinai. The liturgy as it developed drew its texts from the Bible; and the liturgical use in its turn gave a new interpretation to the biblical text and an added meaning to the feast. The new, commemorative, meaning was derived from the Giving of the law lesson (Exodus 19–20); it was, of course, compatible with the Bible, but not expressed therein.

William Sailer et al., Religious and Theological Abstracts (Myerstown, PA: Religious and Theological Abstracts, 2012).

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This interpretation is supported by the liturgical use of describing the angels, taken together, as “virtutes caelorum” (cf. Roman Missal, Preface of Martyrs).

Saint Mark’s Gospel, The Navarre Bible (Dublin; New York: Four Courts Press; Scepter Publishers, 2005), 126.

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This third view is especially applicable to Ps. 45, which was originally composed on the occasion of the marriage of an Israelite king, perhaps Solomon, with the daughter of the Egyptian king, but which certainly acquired, by allegorical interpretation, a Messianic signification in its liturgical use by the church and in the older Jewish theology (5), so far as we can trace it back.

Gustav Friedrich Oehler and George E. Day, Theology of the Old Testament (New York; London: Funk & Wagnalls, 1883), 524.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 3 2019 7:33 PM

Christopher Grant:
Do any of you miss this ability (and this content)?  


Please note that Catholics lack the Breviary/Liturgy of the Hours. And while Anglicans and Lutherans (of some flavors) have the resources, they are not keyed in a usable manner ... The moral of the story is that people have to push, push, push,  to illustrate the need and the market.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 18
Christopher Grant | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 3 2019 9:22 PM

Well I would like to point out that there are Byzantine Catholics who would use these materials too, so maybe we can sneak in the back door with Verbum.

I'm just amazed at what Faithlife thinks I would be interested in as an Orthodox Christian.  

On the other hand, I'm also amazed that they don't have the Breviary. 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 3 2019 9:39 PM

Christopher Grant:
I'm just amazed at what Faithlife thinks I would be interested in as an Orthodox Christian.  

The employee who was in charge of the Orthodox offerings was a two step convert: from (I don't recall) to Lutheran (of some variety) to Russian Orthodox. I did my best to keep suggesting non-Slavic Orthodoxy Big Smile and I do keep pushing Eastern Rite titles without success e.g. Anthony J. Salim's Captivated by Your Teachings: A Resource Book for Adult Maronite Catholics.

What you need to do is put together a list of what you are interested in and see what response it gets from others within the Byzantine Rite.  Then one can start formulating a plan as to how to get FL to see the market. Note it does take a positive response from the publishers first and sometimes they have to be approached first. I did that with St. Vladimir's 

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 2341
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 4 2019 7:45 AM

MJ. Smith:

Mind you, this is strictly my personal take on the situation. 

Thanks for the clarification of the issue and the list of books.  [[Have several]] 

Your comments are eye opening and seem to be right on the mark. [[And your comments might be needed for other denominational groups that are going nowhere fast]]

Too much hate.  If I remember correctly someone once told us to love one another.  Will look into ways to spread that message.  We still see 'others' as 'heretics' rather than 'separated brethren'. [[We yell at them that they are wrong and fail to deeply review our own stands]] 

And WOW! Thanks for the reading By Bishop Kallistos Ware!!

“”Have I gained the boldness of Saint Mary Magdalene, her constancy and loyalty, when she went out to anoint the body of Christ in the tomb (John 20:1)? Do I hear the Risen Savior call me by name, as He called her, and do I respond Rabboni (Teacher) with her simplicity and completeness (John 20:16)?””

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 4 2019 5:34 PM

Christopher Grant:
Well I would like to point out that there are Byzantine Catholics who would use these materials too, so maybe we can sneak in the back door with Verbum.

Even as a member of the Latin Church, I'm interested in the materials. Latin Catholic interest in Byzantine Catholic practices could help sell books.

Posts 134
Manuel Maria | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 5 2019 4:36 AM

MJ. Smith:

Please note that Catholics lack the Breviary/Liturgy of the Hours. And while Anglicans and Lutherans (of some flavors) have the resources, they are not keyed in a usable manner ... The moral of the story is that people have to push, push, push,  to illustrate the need and the market.

I push!! I wish to have the Liturgy of the Hours available in Logos/Verbum.

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