Any Fruchtenbaum lovers out there?

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Posts 3073
Mattillo | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, May 7 2019 4:07 PM

If so, thoughts on this resource? I really like what he has to say and have seen him in person once or twice but I'm not quite sure what this resource is exactly. 

https://www.logos.com/product/3904/the-messianic-bible-study-collection 

Posts 18634
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 7 2019 6:01 PM

This is multiple (191) bible studies in one resource. Some are as few as 10 pages, others as many as 44. Most somewhere in between.

Here's an example of the TOC of one of the studies:

It's kind of more of a commentary than a bible study per se. Here's one section of the above study:

1.   The Content and Consequences of Satan’s Deeds—Ezekiel 28:16

Ezekiel spelled out the content of Satan’s deeds in three statements in verse 16a: By the abundance of your traffic they filled the midst of you with violence, and you have sinned.

The first statement is: By the abundance of your traffic. This same figure was used of the human prince of Tyre in verses 1–10. For the prince of Tyre, it meant going from port to port gathering wealth (v. 5). But for the king of Tyre, Satan, this meant going from angel to angel slandering God in order to win their allegiance. Eventually, he convinced one third of all the angels that God was in the wrong (Rev. 12:4). Because he originated lying, Satan became the father of lies (Jn. 8:44). The corruption of his being led to his wrong deeds, which was lying about God.

The second statement is: they filled the midst of you with violence. The words they filled refer to the trafficking from angel to angel, bad-mouthing God. This led to violence, because he led a revolt against God’s authority in Heaven. Furthermore, this began an angelic conflict between good angels and bad angels that continues to this day and will continue until the middle of the Tribulation, at which point, Satan will be cast out of Heaven to his fourth abode, the earth (Rev. 12:7–12).

The third statement is: and you have sinned. The Hebrew word for sinned means that he missed the mark. As a result of his actions, he missed the mark of his high calling. Thus, Satan became the first sinner in the angelic realm. While Eve was the first sinner in the human sphere, Satan’s sin preceded Eve’s sin.

As a consequence of Satan’s wrongdoings, God pronounces two aspects of judgment in verse 16b: therefore have I cast you as profane out of the mountain of God; and I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

The first aspect is that the perfect cherub became the profane cherub. God states: therefore have I cast you as profane out of the mountain of God. Because of Satan’s wrongdoings, he lost the high position of his first abode the mountain of God; He was no longer the guardian of God’s throne.

In the second aspect, God states: I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. This refers to the loss of his position in his second abode, when he lost all his authority over planet earth. The word destroyed does not mean he was destroyed in his being, but that he was destroyed from his position in Eden, the garden of God. Through man’s fall, Satan was able to usurp man’s authority over the earth and he remains “the prince of this world” (Jn. 12:3) and “the god of this age” (2 Cor. 4:4). However, Satan’s rightful authority ceased when he was destroyed from the midst of the stones of fire. The phrase O covering cherub points out the loss of his position and priestly worship functions.

The "Recommended Reading" section at the end is a list (linked) of other studies in this resource that are related.

There's a "Topical Guide" at the very end, which is a topical index (by Bible book) of all the studies. Here's the beginning of that.

I don't have any thoughts about it, other than being able to share excerpts, as I haven't spent any time working through any of these studies.

Posts 3073
Mattillo | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 7 2019 6:44 PM

Thank you Rosie! I'll give it the 'ole 30-day try

Posts 211
Jim Erwin | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 7 2019 8:12 PM

I treat it like a commentary set. So I have it set in my Passage Guide. When a passage comes up that Fruchtenbuam addresses, I look into it. He gives a great Messianic perspective to Scripture.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jimerwin/ - a postmodern pastor in a digital world

Posts 3645
Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 8 2019 1:30 AM

Does this resource endorse the popular (yet badly erroneous) traditional view that Ezekiel 28 refers to the demise of Satan?

Posts 6158
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 8 2019 2:44 AM

Francis:

Does this resource endorse the popular (yet badly erroneous) traditional view that Ezekiel 28 refers to the demise of Satan?

It could have a double application in some sense, like some scholars suggest for Isaiah 7:14 about the child born from a virgin.

DAL

Posts 681
Kevin A Lewis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 8 2019 3:16 AM

On what basis do you say it is "badly erroneous"

Shalom

Posts 6158
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 8 2019 5:48 AM

Kevin A Lewis:

On what basis do you say it is "badly erroneous"

Shalom

No, please, don’t get him started 😂😂😂

DAL

Posts 3645
Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 8 2019 6:49 AM

Kevin A Lewis:

On what basis do you say it is "badly erroneous"

Shalom

My question was about the resource. If you'd like me to answer your question, best you contact me by pm, since we are not supposed to engage in such conversations here. Same goes for DAL's sensus plenior objection, which is a common yet not applicable one in this case. 

Posts 3073
Mattillo | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 8 2019 7:07 AM

Francis:

Does this resource endorse the popular (yet badly erroneous) traditional view that Ezekiel 28 refers to the demise of Satan?

Yes it does Francis though you and I would disagree as to its interpretation Big Smile I posted just part A but he does offer a little more... not the most in-depth resource I've seen but it does have some interesting points here and there.  Cheapest I've seen it at this point.

---

MBS156

THE FALL OF SATAN ACCORDING TO EZEKIEL 28:11–19
By Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum




TABLE OF CONTENTS


            I.      THE PRINCE OF TYRE AND THE KING OF TYRE—EZEKIEL 28:11–19
         A.      The Relationship Between the Prince of Tyre and the King of Tyre
         B.      The Command to Lament the King of Tyre—Ezekiel 28:11–12a
         C.      The Description of the King of Tyre—Ezekiel 28:12b–13
         D.      The Position of the King of Tyre—Ezekiel 28:14
         E.      The Perfection of the King of Tyre—Ezekiel 28:15
            II.      THE FALL OF THE KING OF TYRE—EZEKIEL 28:16–19
         A.      The Corruption and Judgment of Satan—Ezekiel 28:16–18
           1.      The Content and Consequences of Satan’s Deeds—Ezekiel 28:16
           2.      The Corruption and Consequences of Satan’s Being—Ezekiel 28:17
           3.      The Description and Consequence of Satan’s Deeds—Ezekiel 28:18
         B.      The Results of Satan’s Fall—Ezekiel 28:19




         You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you.
         Ezekiel 28:15


In one of the few passages that mentions it, Ezekiel details the fall of Satan in this section of his large book, where he addressed Satan by one of his many titles, king of Tyre.

This study will be a phrase by phrase exposition of this passage and will be divided into two sections: the prince of Tyre and the King of Tyre and the fall of the King of Tyre.


   I.      THE PRINCE OF TYRE AND THE KING OF TYRE—EZEKIEL 28:11–19

  A.      The Relationship Between the Prince of Tyre and the King of Tyre

By way of introduction, there is a relationship to the previous prophecy of verses 1–10. In verse 2a, God said to Ezekiel: Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyre, thus says the Lord Jehovah

In verses 1–10, Ezekiel had been addressing an individual he called the prince of Tyre. From the human perspective, he is the “king,” but from the divine perspective, he is given the lesser title of prince. However, in verses 11–19, Ezekiel is dealing with a superior, angelic being, Satan, and addresses him as the king of Tyre.

What is the connection? What is the relationship? The human prince of Tyre, Ithobaal II, was able to control the sea lane traffic of the Mediterranean by virtue of his position. Because of that control, he had gained a great deal of wealth and, with that wealth, came power and authority. Verse 2b states: Because your heart is lifted up, and you have said, I am a god, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet you are man, and not God, though you did set your heart as the heart of God.

A day came in this man’s life that, as he meditated in a wrongful manner upon his wealth, his power, and his authority, he was filled with pride, and this pride led to his self-declaration of deity. For this pride, he was condemned by God through Ezekiel. While the world called this individual the “king of Tyre,” the real king of Tyre was not the visible person sitting on the throne, but an invisible being, Satan, who was controlling the visible one. The invisible being was the true king of Tyre, who once fell for the same reason: the problem of pride that led to a self declaration of deity. Although verses 11–19 do not state that Satan also claimed to be god, there is a parallel passage in Isaiah 14:12–14 in which Satan’s fifth “I will” declares: I will make myself like the Most High.

So the connection between the visible king, Ithobaal II, and the invisible king, Satan, was the problem of pride.


Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum, The Messianic Bible Study Collection, vol. 156 (Tustin, CA: Ariel Ministries, 1983), 1–4.

Posts 681
Kevin A Lewis | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 9 2019 1:28 AM

Okay how do I PM (Private Message) here - not done that before.

Shalom

Posts 3645
Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 9 2019 1:39 AM

DAL:

It could have a double application in some sense, like some scholars suggest for Isaiah 7:14 about the child born from a virgin.

DAL

The reason we know that Isaiah 7:14 or the reference to the son of David in 2 Sam 7:12-13 have a double sense is because the NT says so. Otherwise we can find double senses wherever there are resemblances or even where there are none. A certain cult member told me at some point concerning their interpretation of Ezekiel 37:15–23 as referring to a Bible revelation (the stick of Judah) and another source of revelation (the book written by their founding "prophet" claiming to be the stick of Joseph). When I pointed out that there is no objective basis for this interpretation in the Bible, he said "yes but some passages can have a double sense". 

To find out whether there is objective warrant for a double sense interpretation:

(1) Use the OT in NT interactive and/or other similar resources to check whether Ezekiel 28 is quoted or alluded to in this way.

(2) It can also be helpful to check for intertestamental Jewish interpretations in the Ancient Lit Guide:

(3) You can check also the church fathers or later rabbinical interpretations (some of which, the Tannaitic ones, could be contemporary with the NT) to seek to find when such an interpretation may have developed extra-biblically.

Posts 3645
Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 9 2019 1:50 AM

Kevin A Lewis:

Okay how do I PM (Private Message) here - not done that before.

Shalom

https://support.faithlife.com/hc/en-us/articles/360012919211-Sending-Messages

Posts 9862
Forum MVP
NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 9 2019 2:52 AM

Francis:

Kevin A Lewis:

Okay how do I PM (Private Message) here - not done that before.

Shalom

https://support.faithlife.com/hc/en-us/articles/360012919211-Sending-Messages

The most relevant passage from this page is probably: "You can send a message to any individual on Faithlife with whom you share a group." which means, unless you are members together in a FL group with the recipient of your message, you can't PM them.  

The obvious solution in this case is to either both join a group (possibly one that is related to the topic), or to quickly create a group and tell the respective individual(s) to join it.  

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

Posts 3645
Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 9 2019 4:28 AM

An easy way to work with this: if you want to start a conversation with someone or more people on a topic arising in forums:

1) Create a "special interest" group on faithlife.com. Alternatively head to faithlife.com, look at the groups section (on the left), click on the + sign to add one. Choose private or public as you wish. Make it time-limited or indefinite.

2) Invite any faithlife member you wish. If they accept and join, the conversation is on! You can then choose to pm (look for a conversation bubble icon top right of the screen) or via posts in the group.

Example, took me 2 mins to create a public group called on Ezekiel 28 and Satan and invited a certain Kevin A. Lewis. Whether or not you or others want to join, this is how it's done.

Posts 9862
Forum MVP
NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 9 2019 5:21 AM

Yes

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

Posts 6158
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 10 2019 4:37 AM

 Could anybody post like the first chapter of first Peter on his studies?  I’m between yes and no; even though it looks like a great resource to have .

DAL

Posts 70
Thomas Pape | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 10 2019 4:48 AM

Table of Contents

Introduction—1 Peter 1:1–2

A.    The Author, the Recipients, and the Location—1 Peter 1:1

1.    The Author

2.    The Recipients

3.    The Location

B.    The Occasion

C.    The Themes

D.    The Salutation—1 Peter 1:2

1.    The Work of the Trinity

2.    The Greeting

                 I.    The Status of Believers—1 Peter 1:3–2:10

A.    The Character of the Believer’s Salvation—1 Peter 1:3–12

1.    The Future Aspect—1 Peter 1:3–5

a.    A Living Hope—1 Peter 1:3

b.    An Inheritance—1 Peter 1:4

c.     The Power of God—1 Peter 1:5

2.    The Present Aspect—1 Peter 1:6–9

a.    Rejoicing in Trials—1 Peter 1:6

b.    The Purpose of Suffering—1 Peter 1:7

c.     The Object of Faith—1 Peter 1:8

d.    The Goal of Faith—1 Peter 1:9

3.    The Past Aspect—1 Peter 1:10–12

a.    The Fruition of the Prophecies—1 Peter 1:10

b.    The Content of the Prophecies—1 Peter 1:11

c.     The Revelation to the Prophets—1 Peter 1:12

B.    The Character of the Believer—1 Peter 1:13–25

1.    Conformity to God the Father—1 Peter 1:13–16

2.    Conformity to Redemption—1 Peter 1:17–21

3.    Conformity to Love—1 Peter 1:22–25

C.    The Remnant and the Non Remnant—1 Peter 2:1–10

1.    The Spiritual State of the Remnant—1 Peter 2:1–3

2.    The Stone of Stumbling and the Rock of Offence—1 Peter 2:4–10

a.    Jesus as a Living Stone—1 Peter 2:4

b.    Believers as Living Stones: 1 Peter 1:2–5a

c.     Believers as a Holy Priesthood—1 Peter 2:5b

d.    Distinction Between the Remnant and the Non Remnant—1 Peter 2:6–8

e.    The Position of the Remnant—1 Peter 2:9–10

                II.    The Conduct of Jewish Believers—1 Peter 2:11–4:11

A.    Conduct in Relation to Daily Living—1 Peter 2:11–12

1.    Regarding Abstention from Fleshly Lusts—1 Peter 2:11

2.    Regarding Behavior Among Unbelieving Gentiles—1 Peter 2:12

B.    Conduct in Relation to Government—1 Peter 2:13–17

1.    The Principle of Subjection—1 Peter 2:13–14

2.    The Reasons for Subjection—1 Peter 2:15–16

3.    Summary—1 Peter 2:17

C.    Conduct in Relation to Masters and Believing Servants—1 Peter 2:18–25

1.    The Obligations—1 Peter 2:18–20

2.    The Example of Wrongful Suffering—1 Peter 2:21–24

3.    Their Position—1 Peter 2:25

D.    Conduct in Relation to Wives and Husbands—1 Peter 3:1–7

1.    Wives—1 Peter 3:1–6

a.    The Obligation of Wives—1 Peter 3:1a

b.    The Purpose of Subjection—1 Peter 3:1b–2

c.     Outward and Inward Adornment—1 Peter 3:3–4

d.    An Example from the Old Testament—1 Peter 3:5–6

2.    Husbands—1 Peter 3:7

E.    Summary Conclusions—1 Peter 3:8–12

F.    Conduct in Suffering—1 Peter 3:13–4:11

1.    Suffering for Righteousness’ Sake—1 Peter 3:13–22

a.    Suffering for the Sake of a Good Conscience—1 Peter 3:13–17

b.    The Example of the Messiah—1 Peter 3:18–22

(1)  His Sufferings and Death—1 Peter 3:18

(2)  His Ministry in Sheol—1 Peter 3:19–20

(3)  The Application to Jewish Believers—1 Peter 3:21

(4)  His Glorification—1 Peter 3:22

2.    The Responsibilities of the Believer—1 Peter 4:1–6

a.    Regarding Suffering—1 Peter 4:1

b.    Regarding the Work of God—1 Peter 4:2

c.     Regarding Righteous Living: 1 Peter 4:3–6

3.    Conduct in Light of Coming Judgment—1 Peter 4:7–11

a.    The End is Near—1 Peter 4:7a

b.    Characterized by a Life of Prayer—1 Peter 4:7b

c.     Characterized by Love—1 Peter 4:8

d.    Characterized by Hospitality—1 Peter 4:9

e.    Characterized by the Use of Spiritual Gifts—1 Peter 4:10–11

               III.    Partakers of the Glory to Come—1 Peter 4:12–5:11

A.    Sufferings as a Cause for Rejoicing—1 Peter 4:12–19

1.    The Inevitability of Trials—1 Peter 4:12

2.    Partakers of the Messiah’s Sufferings—1 Peter 4:13

3.    Bearing Reproach—1 Peter 4:14

4.    Suffering for Wrong Doing—1 Peter 4:15

5.    Suffering as a Christian—1 Peter 4:16

6.    The Principle of Divine Discipline—1 Peter 4:17–18

7.    The Believer’s Commitment—1 Peter 4:19

B.    Concluding Exhortations—1 Peter 5:1–11

1.    Exhortations to the Elders—1 Peter 5:1–4

a.    The Basis of the Exhortations—1 Peter 5:1

b.    The Exhortation Itself—1 Peter 5:2a

c.     The Elder’s Response—1 Peter 5:2b–3

d.    The Elder’s Future Reward—1 Peter 5:4

2.    Exhortations to the Flock—1 Peter 5:5–11

a.    Be in subjection—1 Peter 5:5a

b.    Be Humble—1 Peter 5:5b–6

c.     Cast Anxiety on God—1 Peter 5:7

d.    Resist Satan—1 Peter 5:8–9

e.    Recognize God’s Purpose—1 Peter 5:10

3.    Doxology—1 Peter 5:11

              IV.    Concluding Salutations—1 Peter 5:12–14a

                V.    The Benediction—1 Peter 5:14b

Posts 6158
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 10 2019 10:23 AM

Thank you, Thomas P.!

How about copy and paste a short section of the content. I’ve seen the outline.  Thanks!

DAL

Posts 6158
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 10 2019 1:55 PM

Nevermind! I’m giving it a 30 day test drive 👍😁👌 I like what I see so far.

DAL

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