Terminology and basic overview of Logos

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Posts 8
Daniel | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, May 29 2019 7:19 PM

Hi ya,

  I've played with Logos a bit a while ago and once could spell layout and so on. Now looking again I have questions that I think a decent glossary or basic doc page would go a long way to answering. For example, what is a resource as distinct from a dataset ? How are the two related ? and so on.

  Could anyone point me to such ? I cannot find a doc link on the website anywhere. Perhaps it's in the product but .... see remarks above. :)

Thx

Daniel

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 29 2019 10:15 PM

I know of no such thing, however you can look up terminology on the Logos wiki, and there are some overview pages there. Getting Started, etc. And some training videos.

A resource is anything that shows up in your Library. Most resources are books (Bibles, Commentaries, Dictionaries, Monographs, etc.) or journals. But there are some other types of resources too: Interactives, Media Collections, Courseware Media Collections, Clause VIsualizations, etc.

Datasets are databases that are integral to the functioning of the software but are stored in separate files on your hard disk. You can't see them in your Library or open them like you would open a database in database software. You can't browse through them directly in the UI. They facilitate features. So you can see the results of these datasets in various search queries, or when you turn on certain visual filters such as Addressee Labels.

You can find documentation about the datasets in resources of type Manual with "Dataset Documentation" in their titles. These will show you in a very brief way how to gain access to the data that's in them through the Logos UI. For more detailed info, though, you should ask here on the forums, as there are knowledgeable people who can explain things better.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 30 2019 4:13 AM

Daniel:
I have questions that I think a decent glossary or basic doc page would go a long way to answering.

The built in Logos Help File seems to already provide that info:

Logos Help File:

Datasets

A collection of separate sets of information that have been grouped together into a single, searchable unit. Logos datasets are not resources to view from the library; rather, they power features within the application

For example, the Systematic Theology Cross References Dataset contains approximately 830,000 references that have been categorized according to denominational affiliation (Anglican, Medieval, Patristic, etc.) and theological category (Christology, Anthropology, Ecclesiology, etc.). This dataset is also accessible through the Systematic Theologies section of the Passage Guide.

Most Logos datasets come with a documentation file that is housed in the Library.


Logos Help (Bellingham, WA: Faithlife, 2018).

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Posts 8
Daniel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 30 2019 6:03 AM

Thanx Rosie, JT, I got to that basic info at one point. It leaves open the question how the two relate. It seems that datasets in a sense, at least sometimes, act as an overlay over resources. So for example the SBLGNT is a resource I believe. One might acquire the discourse dataset or the clause dataset and those would allow one to do discourse or clause based searches of the SBLGNT. Is that a correct understanding ?

Part of the reason for asking this is to understand how to figure out what pre-requisites or co-requisites exist for a dataset. The datasets themselves don't appear to list them directly.

Thx

D

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 30 2019 7:02 AM

You are making it too complicated. Datasets work “behind the scenes“ to make certain features work. You don’t interact with them directly at all. One example is the “reverse interlinears.” If you want to know what original language word was used to translate a certain English word, you need to have the RI for that translation. You acquire the dataset either through the purchase of a “feature set” or through a ”Faithlife Connect” subscription. 

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Posts 8
Daniel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 30 2019 7:36 AM

Ok I think I get it. Problem is I'm a computer programmer so I'm at least in part imagining how it actually might work. But I think I'm starting to get it.

Thx

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 30 2019 8:35 AM

Daniel:

Ok I think I get it. Problem is I'm a computer programmer so I'm at least in part imagining how it actually might work. But I think I'm starting to get it.

Thx

The issue goes back a long ways. Used to, if you wanted to use the hebrew/greek match functionality, you had to buy a specific resource (Tov I think). Then another resource too (Logos). Then, a dataset (Lexham).

When they 'tag' they bury it in the resource file .., ergo constant resource updates.  Discourse used to be resources (and still is, if you didn't get the dataset). Now, it can be both. 

Then, you have the issue of exactly what does a dataset do. That was a big problem, if you hadn't bought it.  They'd literally point to forum posts as documentation (L7). Don't know what happened in L8. 

Finally, you have the Connect-ers with familiarity with recent features, vs the the wait-ers who haven't a clue, and by the time it arrives, it's a yawn.

Bottom line: Faithlife's well known communication disinterest (even the help file was limited for a long time). They're banned from producing a manual. Bits of documentation sprinkled around can get past the ban.


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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 30 2019 8:36 AM

Daniel:
Part of the reason for asking this is to understand how to figure out what pre-requisites or co-requisites exist for a dataset. The datasets themselves don't appear to list them directly.

The prerequisite for a dataset is the purchase of a Feature Set. But it means you may purchase items that you do not need, especially if what you want is only in the Full Feature Set. If new to Logos, a  Base Package will provide resources and an associated Feature Set to help you at your level of study. If you feel you have sufficient resources, then purchase an appropriate Feature Set (or subscribe to Faithlife Connect to get them all).

The description in the web pages (on hover) is somewhat misleading as datasets/features cannot, generally, be purchased individually.

Interlinears

The Reverse Interlinears are datasets, and you will need the corresponding bible/resource from a separate purchase. So, you will usually have some unused datasets!

The Interlinears are complete resources e.g. Lexham Hebrew-English Interlinear Bible (LHI) is a Hebrew bible with an English translation (and morphology) aligned to each Hebrew word/segment.

Datasets

hover description is available for most of these. They also need resources/books/tools, and some are provided in the Feature Set, so that their use can be demonstrated. Many provide data for use in the Search tool, which is part of the Logos software e.g. The Lexham Discourse Greek New Testament Dataset can be used to search many Greek bibles (and bibles with an English-Greek Reverse Interlinear)  for Discourse features. As you also get The Lexham Discourse Greek New Testament Dataset: SBL Edition with a Feature Set, results are expanded for SBL Greek bibles.

Features

These can be Tools, User Interface features, Visual Filters, Guide sections, Workflow features (individual Workflows are listed under Workflows)

Interactive Media

These appear in your Library under the Type Interactive. They provide information in a way that is not available to a book, as you can interact with it. Many use a dataset. Some use data from resources, whilst others are self-contained.

Dave
===

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Posts 8
Daniel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 30 2019 8:51 AM

Ok that actually helps a lot. Thanx Denise. Common too in old bodies of code to have such competing models that haven't fully been updated to the new way of looking at things. I tend to prefer standoff tagging rather than embedded to be honest but corrections require updates one way or the other. I'm guessing then that datasets were an attempt to disconnect resource and tagging in some sense or to make dataset tags work with multiple resources.

Not following you on Connect-ers vs wait-ers unless you a talking about the subscription vs non-sub model. Not interested in subscription based models really I have to say.

Pity about the manual situation. No substitute for a good ref guide I think.

Thx again

D

Posts 8
Daniel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 30 2019 8:56 AM

Thanx Dave. You strike a point I'm trying to get to. How can I get the function I want without unused resources. Strictly I want a reasonable Greek NT base text (SBL will do) and a few datasets (if that's the correct term - think it is) so that syntax and discourse queries are possible. I'm not sure this is actually possible and I get conflicting info on the point I'm afraid. It seems it should be possible but it's not clear it actually is, though the reasons might not be strictly technical.

D

Posts 10178
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 30 2019 9:27 AM

I'll shut up. But out of curiousity, I tried to do what you're describing.  First, I thought maybe the cheapest route might be a package. I tried academic starter, to get your mix of features. Nope. But then Safari (ios) doesn't do their popup menus, so I couldn't shift up a level (looking for discourse).  I decided to google the logos site. That allowed finding the discourse page, but only the hefty price tags. Dead end there. Ditto searching products in logos.com. I next attempted compare packages ... that delivered pages and pages of every individual volume in Collectors. And no datasets. Sigh.

I'm fully confident Dave could nail it in seconds. Syntax, I think you need syntax resources, not datasets. Ha.  Could be wrong.

Ok, I'm quiet.

Added: Almost. Dummy me looked at Academic Basic. It ended up in my cart and I couldn't see what was in it. And this, with a $30k Logos rig. Ok, lips sealed.


Posts 18672
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 30 2019 11:44 AM

Denise:
They're banned from producing a manual.

Banned? Really? I know they never had much interest in producing a good user's manual. They outsourced a lame one in the early days of Logos 1.0. When Morris Proctor came along and started making excellent training materials, they pretty much rejoiced that someone else was capable and willing to document the product that they never had wanted to adequately document themselves. Maybe they have a contract with him that forbids them from doing it now, but believe me, they wouldn't need to be banned from doing it. They never wanted to anyway.

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Philana R. Crouch | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 30 2019 12:07 PM

Dave Hooton:

Interlinears

These are datasets, and you will need the corresponding bible/resource from a separate purchase. So, you will usually have some unused datasets!

Just to clarify Reverse Interlinears are datasets that are used with an English (or other languages like Spanish) Bible, but you can also purchase Interlinears that are resources. Here are some examples:

https://www.logos.com/product/2056/lexham-hebrew-english-interlinear-bible

https://www.logos.com/product/8569/lexham-greek-english-interlinear-new-testament-collection

I hope this helps.

Posts 8
Daniel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 30 2019 12:25 PM

Interesting Philana and that raises the question again of how they differ and in particular how one would decide to use one over the other. The latter point though is likely decided by what the I/L as I suspect Logos doesn't provide the same I/L implemented in both ways. But perhaps I'm wrong. That said, not really an I/L fan myself, so at least in that case the point is likely moot.

Thx

D

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Forum MVP
JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 30 2019 1:23 PM

Daniel:
that raises the question again of how they differ and in particular how one would decide to use one over the other.

I don’t think that was explained well. An “interlinear” provides the original language text, in its original order, with other information below each word (including an English translation of the original language word). In Logos, this is presented as any other digital book, which can be read “cover to cover.” Its intended audience would be those with advanced language skills. 

A “reverse interlinear” dataset, on the other hand, is NOT a book you can read “cover to cover. The RI is useless without the corresponding resource. For example: I owned the RI for the NIV84 for years before I acquired the actual NIV84 text through the purchase of someone else’s library. If you have both, you can ”right click” on an English word and discover the original language word. Its intended audience is primarily for those with beginner to intermediate language skills. 

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Posts 8
Daniel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 30 2019 1:51 PM

Ah ok - yeah that makes more sense.

So to take an example from my case of interest, if I had the Discourse NT Dataset: SBLGNT Edition, I would need the SBLGNT resource to make any real use of it ?

Thx

D

Posts 10178
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 30 2019 2:26 PM

Rosie Perera:
Banned? Really?

Years back, they accidentally distributed the employee operating guidance on shipped CDs, right before Libby-g came out.

But you're right. Smiling. I'd like to think it was because manuals invite dense interfaces, hard to keep updated, and used as a last resort. 

Corporately, I think it's sad ... my observation, a lot of really good work never gets explained, customers miss the value, and new employees get hired. Beauty long forgotten. Sometimes the hebrew guy chats (Vince?) and it's really quite amazing what they've done.


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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 30 2019 4:11 PM

Denise:

I'd like to think it was because manuals invite dense interfaces, hard to keep updated, and used as a last resort. 

Corporately, I think it's sad ... my observation, a lot of really good work never gets explained, customers miss the value, and new employees get hired. Beauty long forgotten. Sometimes the hebrew guy chats (Vince?) and it's really quite amazing what they've done.

Makes sense. But yes, I concur that it's too bad so much depth in this program goes unused because it's not understood.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 30 2019 6:00 PM

Daniel:
So to take an example from my case of interest, if I had the Discourse NT Dataset: SBLGNT Edition, I would need the SBLGNT resource to make any real use of it ?

I expanded my original response to clarify the Interlinears provided with Feature Sets, and also touched upon this point. Basically, you would need the SBLGNT to make complete use of that dataset, as it allows for Greek phrases that are unique to the SBL version. The SBL Edition  is also useful for an English-Greek Reverse Interlinear that is based on SBLGNT.

But note that you would also have The Lexham Discourse Greek New Testament Dataset from the Discourse Bible, a Feature Set, or a Connect subscription, so that Discourse features are discoverable in many Greek NT versions.

Dave
===

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Posts 8
Daniel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 31 2019 6:11 AM

Thanx Dave. I am slowing getting a picture of how it hangs together.

Thx

D

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