Best books on OEC/EC/TE?

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Posts 506
Liam & Abi Maguire | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 9 2019 10:14 AM

Rosie Perera:

I have a good friend in England, an evangelical, who is a historian of Christianity, a professor at Oxford and Regent College. She tells me the whole "creation vs. evolution" thing is a uniquely U.S. phenomenon. At least among evangelicals in England, the science of evolution is not viewed as incompatible with belief in a Creator God and taking the Bible seriously as God's Word. They don't have all the baggage of the Scopes Trial and the years of entrenchment of the YEC mindset and find that battle between faith and science to be quite puzzling.

Hi Rosie. I'm from the Uk myself, and, yes I imagine that is the case in the main of church circles. Certainly, NT Wright, who is a prominent and influential evangelical Anglican Bishop, sees no issue with Evolution per se. 

However, UK Conservative Evangelical Christianity is increasingly being influenced by its US counterpart, AiG, YEC, etc. Among conservative evangelical church leaders (or at the least those I've known) YEC is thought of as /the/ biblically faithful reading of Genesis 1-2. This was also the accepted view of many of the charismatic folk and Pentecostals I new in seminary (7 years ago). Whilst not to the extent where is a test of orthodoxy, some might still suggest that not having a YEC position is a failure to 'take God at his Word.'

That said our church's young people (especially those 15+) almost exclusively believe that evolution is scientifically true and think YEC is totally bizarre. I also imagine that the vast majority of their parents wonder what all the fuss is about.

I say all that not to disagree with your learned friend, simply wanted to offer another perspective on the lay of the land :-)

Carpe verbum.

Posts 18876
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 9 2019 1:15 PM

Liam Maguire:

Rosie Perera:

I have a good friend in England, an evangelical, who is a historian of Christianity, a professor at Oxford and Regent College. She tells me the whole "creation vs. evolution" thing is a uniquely U.S. phenomenon. At least among evangelicals in England, the science of evolution is not viewed as incompatible with belief in a Creator God and taking the Bible seriously as God's Word. They don't have all the baggage of the Scopes Trial and the years of entrenchment of the YEC mindset and find that battle between faith and science to be quite puzzling.

Hi Rosie. I'm from the Uk myself, and, yes I imagine that is the case in the main of church circles. Certainly, NT Wright, who is a prominent and influential evangelical Anglican Bishop, sees no issue with Evolution per se. 

However, UK Conservative Evangelical Christianity is increasingly being influenced by its US counterpart, AiG, YEC, etc. Among conservative evangelical church leaders (or at the least those I've known) YEC is thought of as /the/ biblically faithful reading of Genesis 1-2. This was also the accepted view of many of the charismatic folk and Pentecostals I new in seminary (7 years ago). Whilst not to the extent where is a test of orthodoxy, some might still suggest that not having a YEC position is a failure to 'take God at his Word.'

That said our church's young people (especially those 15+) almost exclusively believe that evolution is scientifically true and think YEC is totally bizarre. I also imagine that the vast majority of their parents wonder what all the fuss is about.

I say all that not to disagree with your learned friend, simply wanted to offer another perspective on the lay of the land :-)

Thanks for that other perspective! Things are often more complex than they appear to be at a surface glance.

Posts 23
Nicholas Roland | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 10 2019 10:38 AM

Paul:

Hands down the most comprehensive up to date EC/TE book out there is "Understanding Scientific Theories of Origins:  Cosmology, geology, and biology in Christian Perspective.  The book was developed for an integrative course taught at Wheaton College.  John Walton's chiefly responsible for the theological perspectives.  I am very glad to see that Logos is publishing this.  One warning though:  it very much reads like the textbook it is designed to be.  But on the positive side, there is no other book that combines (and accepts) the latest standard scientific theories in cosmology, geology and biology and then asks what do we make of this theologically.  https://www.logos.com/product/168948/understanding-scientific-theories-of-origins-cosmology-geology-and-biology-in-christian-perspective There are reviews of the book on Amazon and I am sure you can find other reviews as well.  This is really the best resource on EC/TE that has been sponsored by Biologos in my opinion. 

As far as OEC, I echo the comments about Hugh Ross and Reasons to Believe.  Just as Biologos is the key organization for TE, Reasons to Believe is the key one for OEC.

I just want to second the recommendation of this resource. I'm only a little ways through it, but already it strikes me as a remarkably helpful resource, with John Walton contributing the biblical/theological comments in conversation with 4 scientific disciplines. Really very good. Glad it's coming to Logos!

Posts 3568
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 13 2019 10:07 AM

Liam, you may find https://www.thomisticevolution.org/ and related resources quite helpful. It's led by a Dominican priest (i.e., a Catholic priest of the religious order of St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Albert the Great, and of course St. Dominic) who earned his PhD in biology at MIT before becoming a Dominican; he has since acquired a doctorate in moral theology from Fribourg in Switzerland. His three principal coworkers also hold relevant doctorates--philosophy (St. Louis), physics (Stanford), and theology (Fribourg). The four of them jointly wrote https://www.clunymedia.com/product/thomistic-evolution/. Their position on the historicity of Adam and Eve may be found here. The Thomistic Institute podcast also has relevant and enlightening talks by the above and others on evolution, Darwinism, Adam and Eve, etc.

You will find that some of the starting points of these folks differ in very real ways than your own; their argumentation may also differ from what you're used to. I expect that some of these differences will help you strengthen your own understanding of matters connected to evolution and creation in ways you will in time find valuable.

Posts 506
Liam & Abi Maguire | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 17 2019 10:57 PM

SineNomine:

You will find that some of the starting points of these folks differ in very real ways than your own; their argumentation may also differ from what you're used to. I expect that some of these differences will help you strengthen your own understanding of matters connected to evolution and creation in ways you will in time find valuable.

Hi SineNomine, thank you for sharing this. You are correct that they are coming from a different starting point. Surprisingly, one thing I've noticed listening to and reading some of the content is that I've been influenced by post-enlightenment materialism than I ever would have imagined. 

The Thomistic approach is something that is also very different from what I am used to and I'm very much looking forward to engaging with their material some more. I'm certain there is much to learn here.

Thanks again, Liam

Carpe verbum.

Posts 2648
Beloved Amodeo | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 18 2019 3:43 PM

I recommend a work by William A. Dembski as a seminal addition to the Intelligent Design conversation that argues very persuasively that information is the "primary stuff of the world" and not matter. I encourage you to peruse professor Dembski's Wikipedia page to learn a bit about him and where he fits in the discussion. The work is not in Logos and is a costly, but not out of reach Kindle book; Being as Communion: A Metaphysics of Information https://www.amazon.com/Being-Communion-Metaphysics-Information-Religion-ebook/dp/B00NMNY0CQ/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=Dembski&qid=1560895326&s=digital-text&sr=1-5 

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

Posts 729
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 10 2019 7:26 PM

Interesting article and it has reference to resources:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/creation.cfm

After your studies can you share what you think is the most plausible view in your opinion?

Thanks.

Posts 506
Liam & Abi Maguire | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 1 2019 5:32 PM

Hi everyone,

So it has been five months since I first asked the lovely people of Logos Forum for book recommendations. A lot has happened in that time, not least being asked by BioLogos to write my journey and some reflections into a Reformation Day article. If you‘d like to, you can read it here: 

https://biologos.org/personal-stories/why-im-reforming-my-views-on-evolution

Blessings, Liam 

 ps. There is even a sneaky reference to this thread!

Carpe verbum.

Posts 567
J. Remington Bowling | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 2 2019 9:14 AM

Edit: Realized I was responding to a post that was several months old... Deleting comment to not dredge up an old conversation.

Potato resting atop 2020 Mac Pro stand.

Posts 3568
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 2 2019 11:44 AM

Thank you for sharing your article, Liam. I'm glad that this thread was helpful to you in your studies.

Posts 1276
Paul Caneparo | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 5 2020 3:56 AM

There are some interesting books on sale with big discounts at present looking at issues raised in this post.

This book is reduced from around $60 to $20.

https://www.logos.com/product/148114/theistic-evolution-a-scientific-philosophical-and-theological-critique

This is only $1.99 at present - normally $32.

https://www.logos.com/product/49131/adam-the-fall-and-original-sin-theological-biblical-and-scientific-perspectives

And this is reduced from around $30 to $10:

https://www.logos.com/product/149901/science-and-faith-friends-or-foes

The first one has been on my wishlist since publication but I couldn't justify the cost. 

The two more expensive books are on sale until June 15th I understand.

Posts 1469
Rick Ausdahl | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 5 2020 4:42 AM

Thanks for the updates Paul.

Posts 1059
JohnB | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 5 2020 12:34 PM

Jan Krohn:
On the YEC side, I've found Leonard Brand's book to be very honest. One of the few YEC authors who is not ashamed to also present the evidence that contradict their view. https://www.logos.com/product/30992/faith-reason-and-earth-history-2nd-ed (hint: a big monopolistic bully that starts with a has this ebook for free). 


The bully one is the 3rd edition whereas Logos appears to be the 2nd edition. I was interested to note that one of the writers was :-

"• To encourage creationists to respect scientists and to see the value of scientific data, even though we may disagree with significant parts of science’s interpretation of earth history"   Sarcastic creationists really wind me up and is often counter productive. 

Posts 506
Liam & Abi Maguire | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 5 2020 3:46 PM

Paul Caneparo:

There are some interesting books on sale with big discounts at present looking at issues raised in this post.

This book is reduced from around $60 to $20.

https://www.logos.com/product/148114/theistic-evolution-a-scientific-philosophical-and-theological-critique

This is only $1.99 at present - normally $32.

https://www.logos.com/product/49131/adam-the-fall-and-original-sin-theological-biblical-and-scientific-perspectives

And this is reduced from around $30 to $10:

https://www.logos.com/product/149901/science-and-faith-friends-or-foes

The first one has been on my wishlist since publication but I couldn't justify the cost. 

The two more expensive books are on sale until June 15th I understand.

Thanks for posting these Paul. I picked up the second title  myself And looking into the third. 

As for the first book, many in the YEC and ID camps have hailed it as a bit of a home run, but as Deb Haarsma has pointed out, the authors fall at the first hurdle (accurately define TE). As a result the authors are kind of responding to a form of TE that probably doesn’t even exist among Christians who hold to TE/YEC. I say all that not to start a discussion about theology, but to flag up the review: https://biologos.org/articles/a-flawed-mirror-a-response-to-the-book-theistic-evolution

Hope you find it useful. Thanks again for sharing.

Carpe verbum.

Posts 1276
Paul Caneparo | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 5 2020 9:31 PM

Liam & Abi Maguire:

Paul Caneparo:

There are some interesting books on sale with big discounts at present looking at issues raised in this post.

This book is reduced from around $60 to $20.

https://www.logos.com/product/148114/theistic-evolution-a-scientific-philosophical-and-theological-critique

This is only $1.99 at present - normally $32.

https://www.logos.com/product/49131/adam-the-fall-and-original-sin-theological-biblical-and-scientific-perspectives

And this is reduced from around $30 to $10:

https://www.logos.com/product/149901/science-and-faith-friends-or-foes

The first one has been on my wishlist since publication but I couldn't justify the cost. 

The two more expensive books are on sale until June 15th I understand.

Thanks for posting these Paul. I picked up the second title  myself And looking into the third. 

As for the first book, many in the YEC and ID camps have hailed it as a bit of a home run, but as Deb Haarsma has pointed out, the authors fall at the first hurdle (accurately define TE). As a result the authors are kind of responding to a form of TE that probably doesn’t even exist among Christians who hold to TE/YEC. I say all that not to start a discussion about theology, but to flag up the review: https://biologos.org/articles/a-flawed-mirror-a-response-to-the-book-theistic-evolution

Hope you find it useful. Thanks again for sharing.

Thanks Liam

That's helpful. I've started reading the first one and my interest is more the authors views of the science.

Posts 3889
Mattillo | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 6 2020 4:50 AM

JohnB:

Jan Krohn:
On the YEC side, I've found Leonard Brand's book to be very honest. One of the few YEC authors who is not ashamed to also present the evidence that contradict their view. https://www.logos.com/product/30992/faith-reason-and-earth-history-2nd-ed (hint: a big monopolistic bully that starts with a has this ebook for free). 


The bully one is the 3rd edition whereas Logos appears to be the 2nd edition. I was interested to note that one of the writers was :-

"• To encourage creationists to respect scientists and to see the value of scientific data, even though we may disagree with significant parts of science’s interpretation of earth history"   Sarcastic creationists really wind me up and is often counter productive. 

 You can get this  book for free in multiple formats here; nothing illegal

https://www.grisda.org/faith-reason-and-earth-history 

https://www.adventistlearningcommunity.com/faith-reason-earth-history 

Posts 1276
Paul Caneparo | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 6 2020 5:17 AM

Mattillo:

JohnB:

Jan Krohn:
On the YEC side, I've found Leonard Brand's book to be very honest. One of the few YEC authors who is not ashamed to also present the evidence that contradict their view. https://www.logos.com/product/30992/faith-reason-and-earth-history-2nd-ed (hint: a big monopolistic bully that starts with a has this ebook for free). 


The bully one is the 3rd edition whereas Logos appears to be the 2nd edition. I was interested to note that one of the writers was :-

"• To encourage creationists to respect scientists and to see the value of scientific data, even though we may disagree with significant parts of science’s interpretation of earth history"   Sarcastic creationists really wind me up and is often counter productive. 

 You can get this  book for free in multiple formats here; nothing illegal

https://www.grisda.org/faith-reason-and-earth-history 

https://www.adventistlearningcommunity.com/faith-reason-earth-history 

Thanks for that. 

Posts 3889
Mattillo | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 6 2020 6:49 AM

You’re welcome! One of these days I’ll throw it through Calibre and make a PBB of it

Posts 1276
Paul Caneparo | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 6 2020 9:42 AM

Another book on sale at present (within the USA only I guess) is this at $1.99. 

https://ebooks.faithlife.com/product/151654/the-case-for-a-creator-a-journalist-investigates-scientific-evidence-that-points-toward-god

As is usual with Lee Strobel it's written in a very engaging style.

Posts 1059
JohnB | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 6 2020 3:30 PM

Mattillo:

You’re welcome! One of these days I’ll throw it through Calibre and make a PBB of it

It slid though yesterday very nicely! 

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