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Derek Browning | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Jul 21 2019 7:47 PM

Can someone educate me on the differences between a "faithlife e-books" resource and a logos resource?  I'm happy to buy either, but wonder what differences exist, and what happens if/when logos decides to transition a faithlife ebook to logos (or if that even happens).

*I'm sure this has been discussed on a dozen forum posts, but my searches were not finding them.

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 22 2019 1:15 AM

Derek Browning:
Can someone educate me on the differences between a "faithlife e-books" resource and a logos resource?

Faithlife eBooks are automatically produced from an ePub source, much like a PB is compiled. In course of this production process, bible references get detected and made active links. There's no further tagging (such as milestones, books referenced etc like you would expect for a Logos resource). The automated tagging may not pick up all bible references, or get it wrong in case of incomplete references. All eBooks are of type:monograph with no Logos index, no subject metadata and no page numbers. 

This all means that in many cases, you won't recognize the difference between Logos editions and eBook editions, whereas in others you might feel the frustration of reading a kindle-like ebook which just isn't the same. Daily calendar devotionals will not have a date index, bible commentaries won't scroll along your bible etc, because they are just monographs.

However, Faithlife typically does make sure that we don't have two editions to choose from, a book comes either into the eBook store or into Logos. Moreover, it often is not a decision of Faithlife. Some publishers (e.g. Abingdon) only want to sell through the eBook store, even if it's expensive scholarly books, others prefer this route for a number of books. The production capability to create the more elaborate Logos resources is limited, so we an be glad for all books in eBook format because they are part of our library like the Logos editions and otherwise simply wouldn't be there. In many cases it's also a chance to get great resources at a great price.  

 

Derek Browning:
what happens if/when logos decides to transition a faithlife ebook to logos (or if that even happens).
This happens, but very rarely. In this case the owners of the eBook edition get a free license to the Logos edition - this doesn't take away the eBook since you may have highlights and other notes associated to that. 

Hope this helps. 

Please come back in case something was not clear or you need aditional information.

Running Logos 9 latest (beta) version on Win 10

Posts 13411
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 22 2019 1:17 AM

Books are put through an automatic converter that takes a publisher's digital files (the one they use for Kindle editions, etc.), and creates Logos compatible version with no human input. The converter recognises most Bible references, but not any other references. There won't be links to other resources. There will likely be no page numbers and certainly no other milestones. The formatting might be a bit wonky (slightly large fonts, uneven line-spacing, etc.). Typos or incorrect metadata won't be corrected. There'll be a TOC, but probably only at one level. All books are monographs, and won't have any additional tagging to make them useful in other tools. Pricing will be controlled by the publisher.

Logos resources are hand-compiled from either scans or from publisher's digital files. Links and references to other resources will be added by the editor. Page numbers will be present. Formatting will be tidied up to properly match the print edition. Typos and other errors may be corrected in the future. The TOC should be complete. If appropriate, additional tagging or metadata will be added to make them integrate with (e.g.) Factbook, Guides, Systematic Theology tools, etc. Pricing will normally be controlled by Faithlife.

Where an eBook version are transitioned to Logos editions, Faithlife effectively start from scratch and produce a second edition. Owners of the eBook edition are then gifted a copy of the new edition and end up with both in their library. Notes/highlighting from the old edition won't get transferred.

Here's a screenshot of one book, the Logos edition on the left, and the eBook edition on the right:

The two resources aren't from the same print edition, but ignoring those differences, on the right, note the incomplete TOC, missing page numbers, the missing Bible verse link (because it's not explicit enough to be captured by the automatic converter), and the inferior typography.

Posts 2
Ray Call | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 13 2019 11:47 AM

Thanks for the great explanation! If the eBook version resource from Faithlife does not list page numbers, then is it impossible to find what page a quote or selection would be from? This would be helpful if someone were writing a term paper and needed to cite sources and page numbers. Kindle and Logos would have page numbers, but what about the eBooks on Faithlife?

Posts 13411
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 13 2019 12:07 PM

Ray Call:
Thanks for the great explanation! If the eBook version resource from Faithlife does not list page numbers, then is it impossible to find what page a quote or selection would be from? This would be helpful if someone were writing a term paper and needed to cite sources and page numbers. Kindle and Logos would have page numbers, but what about the eBooks on Faithlife?

If the eBook version does not list page numbers, it's impossible from within Logos to find what page a quote is from. It is sometimes possible – but a hassle – to paste the quote into google and find the answer in Google Books or on Amazon See Inside.

That said, nowadays, schools should have rules for citing electronic resources, so it should be still possible to cite the resource, even without a page number.

(PS Kindle books often don't have page numbers. If not you have to cite the 'location' instead, or simply omit the page number.)

Posts 2
Ray Call | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 13 2019 12:10 PM

Thanks. Good answer.

Posts 1318
Myke Harbuck | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 13 2019 12:13 PM

Mark Barnes:
That said, nowadays, schools should have rules for citing electronic resources, so it should be still possible to cite the resource, even without a page number.

Correct. Most citation standards (Chicago, MLA, etc) permit citing of electronic sources without a page number, and permit the use of n.p. (need page) when the author still desires to include the page detail in the citation.

Myke Harbuck
Lead Pastor, www.ByronCity.Church
Adjunct Professor, Georgia Military College

Posts 41
Todd Beall | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 26 2020 10:50 PM

Hi Mark,

I'm reading this post 10 months later, but it's quite helpful.

I just bought a faithlife ebook (Walter Kaiser's Coping with Change) and opened it in Logos. But when I use copy/paste or try to print a section, the footnotes don't show up anywhere. Is this another difference between faithlife ebooks and Logos books (no footnotes, or improperly copied footnotes), or am I doing something wrong? I can see the footnote numbers in Logos, and when I click on the number, it does give me the footnote (as one of a number of footnotes!), and the footnotes also appear separately at the end of each book chapter. But I can't get them to appear if I use copy/paste or if I print a section.

So...another difference seems to be how footnotes are handled (unless I am doing something wrong, which is quite possible!).

Thanks for any thoughts you might have.

Todd

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 27 2020 1:25 AM

Todd Beall:
I just bought a faithlife ebook (Walter Kaiser's Coping with Change)

Thanks for finding and telling! Just bought it.

Todd Beall:
when I use copy/paste or try to print a section, the footnotes don't show up anywhere. Is this another difference between faithlife ebooks and Logos books (no footnotes, or improperly copied footnotes)

I think, yes. I'm not sure whether this is happening in all eBooks or not, but I've seen this in a number of eBooks: the automated production process doesn't generate "proper" Logos footnotes, but puts the footnotes like resource text at the end of the chapter, and the footnote marker is like a link to this section of text (or to the respective footnote in this section), which means they are most often showing up when reading the main text and looking for the footnote, sometimes one needs to go there to locate the FN text. It's a bit like on Kindle. This may often mean that when copy/pastig text, the footnotes don't come along come with the main text. When printing the whole chapter, the footnotes come along as chapter endnotes for me, otherwise one would need to copy them over separately.

Those non-footnotes have one aspect that's better than normal Logos footnotes: you may use highlights and notes in them.

Running Logos 9 latest (beta) version on Win 10

Posts 2239
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 27 2020 8:32 AM

Todd Beall:
I'm reading this post 10 months later, but it's quite helpful.

also note that in the last 10 months Logos has now created a "Logos e-reader" format that is manually tagged but not to the full extent as a traditional Logos edition. This is being done to make some resources available same day as the print editions is released.

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

Posts 41
Todd Beall | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 27 2020 6:44 PM

Thanks! Kaiser's work is an expansion of his small commentary Total Life published by Moody. I think it is quite good (for its size).

Thanks for the comments on the footnotes--that does seem to be the case! I was a bit surprised, but I'm still glad that I got the book.

Posts 41
Todd Beall | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 27 2020 6:47 PM

Thanks, David. It's a bit confusing, but it does make some sense.

I had thought that the Faithlife ebooks simply lagged the more sophisticated tagging--hadn't realized that copying/printing portions would not be the same as with a regular Logos resource (in which you also can get the footnote reference if you desire).

Thanks again.

Posts 14
George Hull | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 28 2020 2:42 PM

While it is true that standard style manuals permit alternative citation methods when page numbers are not present, in much of the academic work I have been involved in, that is not preferred. Faithlife should clearly state that theses electronic books have no page numbers on the page that advertises the books.  I bought several Faithlife ebooks for research purposes only to discover the page number issue. Multiple rounds of inquiry with Customer Support could not provide a definitive answer, only the offer of a refund.  This thread is as close to a definitive answer as I have seen.  I just made a rule not to buy Faithlife ebooks when they show up in my resource searches on Logos' web site. If I cannot find an alternate electronic resource with page numbers I resort unfortunately to paper.

George

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 28 2020 5:34 PM

George Hull:
I bought several Faithlife ebooks for research purposes only to discover the page number issue. Multiple rounds of inquiry with Customer Support could not provide a definitive answer

I am not sure what you are wanting a "definitive answer" to. If you mean page numbers in FLEB titles, you should count on them not being present. 

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