Has Letter to Romans been studied at secular law schools?

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 25 2019 6:55 AM

J. Remington Bowling:
I don't think it would be considered a masterful presentation of logic by contemporary analytic standards
Neural-net-wise, Romans is a stack of sermon shorties, with a letter wrapper (apparently twice, judging from the MSS's).

It's 2,000 years later, now with 'seminary theology certification'. But analytically, looks exactly what it proposes ... need support for a new mission field ... here's what I teach (my sermon shorties).

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 1
Dan Levson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 15 2021 9:53 AM

Hi,

I was searching for an answer to the same question.  I graduated in engineering in 1974 and I was hearing this claim that Romans was used to train lawyers in law school around that time.  This was well before many of the lawyers commenting on your post had graduated. 

Regardless, there may be truth to the statement.  Yale, Princeton and Harvard Universities all started out as Divinity Schools with the major purpose of training ministers.  The Yale School of Law started around 1810 per Wikipedia (under a different name).   Yale itself was founded in 1701 as the Collegiate School, renamed to Yale College in 1718.

These Universities were heavily engaged in the faith communities of the time (e.g. Presbyterians, Congregationalists, etc.).  Using Romans as an instruction tool in a law school would be consistent with the roots of these colleges.  However, I doubt that would have been a practice much beyond the 1920s, if even that late. This is all speculation.  To get a definitive answer, a historian would need to go back to the 1700s and 1800s to review the curriculum in use in at least the better known law schools to find an answer.  Unfortunately, I'm still active in my career and don't have the time.  

Dan

Posts 1273
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 15 2021 1:07 PM

Sounds like an anecdotal thing that could have happened when Scripture and the classics were given higher priority than today. But as others have pointed out, being able to substantiate it is apparently a lot harder.

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 15 2021 5:20 PM

Given the Bible's own testimonty that Paulus's method of communication is obtuse, problematic, and given to getting people destroyed (not to mention prophecy's general sentiment), I find the premise of this thread to be confoundingly absurd. On the other hand, I am not even slightly surpriised to find evidence of people taking this proposal seriously, or even actively supporting or advocating it.

Paulus was an astoundingly bad exegete on many levels.

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Posts 162
Bob | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 15 2021 7:14 PM

David Paul:

Paulus was an astoundingly bad exegete on many levels.

Wasn‘t Paul under inspiration of the Holy Spirit?  Are you commenting on the Holy Spirit also?

Bob

Posts 5430
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 15 2021 7:49 PM

Bob:

David Paul:

Paulus was an astoundingly bad exegete on many levels.

Wasn‘t Paul under inspiration of the Holy Spirit? 

Bob

Acts 21:4, 14 ...so apparently not.

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Posts 162
Bob | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 15 2021 7:58 PM

David Paul:

Bob:

David Paul:

Paulus was an astoundingly bad exegete on many levels.

Wasn‘t Paul under inspiration of the Holy Spirit? 

Bob

Acts 21:4, 14 ...so apparently not.

Thanks,  I know where you stand now.

Bob

Posts 5430
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 15 2021 8:07 PM

Bob:

Thanks,  I know where you stand now.

Bob

Kinda sorta, I suppose, but not really. Care to explain how "being led by" and "openly defying" can share the same space? Keep it philosophical rather than theological if you like...if you can.

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Posts 162
Bob | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 15 2021 8:15 PM

David Paul:

Bob:

Thanks,  I know where you stand now.

Bob

Kinda sorta, I suppose, but not really. Care to explain how "being led by" and "openly defying" can share the same space? Keep it philosophical rather than theological if you like...if you can.

No thanks.  I know where you stand.  That‘s fine with me. 
Bob

Posts 1273
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 15 2021 8:38 PM

David Paul:

Bob:

David Paul:

Paulus was an astoundingly bad exegete on many levels.

Wasn‘t Paul under inspiration of the Holy Spirit? 

Bob

Acts 21:4, 14 ...so apparently not.

The prophets told him what would happen. It doesn’t necessarily follow he was disobeying God. Another possibility is that the prophets told him the what and let their human feelings led to their warnings not to go (Like Peter’s response to Jesus telling of His suffering and death). Based on Jesus’ encouragement to Paul in prison, that seems like a reasonable possibility.

But I think going further will turn this into a debate. So, I’ll just stop here with listing this counterpoint.

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 15 2021 9:11 PM

Bob:

David Paul:

Bob:

Thanks,  I know where you stand now.

Bob

Kinda sorta, I suppose, but not really. Care to explain how "being led by" and "openly defying" can share the same space? Keep it philosophical rather than theological if you like...if you can.

No thanks.  I know where you stand.  That‘s fine with me. 
Bob

Well, I asked because I honestly don't get where you stand, so I thought an explanation might help. Oddly and ironically enough, though, I have now come to know where you stand, too.

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Posts 162
Bob | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 15 2021 9:31 PM

Good. We understand where each of of stands.  No problem.

Bob

Posts 162
Bob | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 15 2021 9:38 PM

I apologize for the  mis-pronunciation.  

Bob

Posts 609
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 16 2021 5:59 AM

David Paul:
Paulus was an astoundingly bad exegete on many levels.

I'm always surprised when we agree ... maybe statistically it's unavoidable. Being a member of the Literal Denomination (separate the Writings from 'stands'/later-doctrines), I think (?) I'm pretty opposite your takes, especially in the jewish Bible.

https://www.logos.com/product/168013/echoes-of-scripture-in-the-letters-of-paul 

I just found this one. It's (very) slow going ... the gentleman seems to select each word choice carefully, so demanding 'why'. But it starts out in the same opinion as yours ... that acceptance of bouncy Pauline exegesis demands a later theology(s). 

Ironically it's from Yale. Maybe the author is a theology-lawyer. Smiling.

Posts 211
scooter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 16 2021 6:53 AM

DMB:
I'm always surprised when we agree ... maybe statistically it's unavoidable.

This is funny!!  So very dry. [I am not referencing Mr. Paul, here.]. As a general statement on life, its great.  Akin to the Who's; 'The simple things you see are all complicated.'

Posts 1
David Thompson | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 28 2021 11:07 PM

Are you able to advise which Schaefer book this Udo Middleman quote was derived?

Posts 1289
Kiyah | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 29 2021 7:56 AM

David Paul:

Bob:

David Paul:

Paulus was an astoundingly bad exegete on many levels.

Wasn‘t Paul under inspiration of the Holy Spirit? 

Bob

Acts 21:4, 14 ...so apparently not.

I don't think Paul was a bad exegete. I think Paul (being Jewish and a Pharisee) took a more midrashic approach to interpreting and applying scripture, inspired by the Holy Spirit. Neither the ancient writers nor the Holy Spirit are obligated to abide by our modern and western standards of what constitutes good vs. bad interpretation. And there are different approaches to interpretation even in our context so why wouldn't there be in Paul's?

As for Acts, I do believe Paul was let by the Spirit to go to Jerusalem (Acts 20:22) and the prophets were warning him by the Spirit that he would face hardship there. The Spirit also warns Paul he would face hardship (Acts 20:23). We just had this discussion in a Bible study at my church. Is it possible that they were all hearing from the Spirit about Paul's impending imprisonment but had come to different conclusions about what Paul should do about it? The prophets heard rightly from the Spirit about imprisonment but they weren't privy to everything Paul had already heard from both the Spirit and Jesus himself.

Posts 609
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 29 2021 10:03 AM

Kiyah:
I don't think Paul was a bad exegete. I think Paul (being Jewish and a Pharisee) took a more midrashic approach to interpreting and applying scripture, inspired by the Holy Spirit. Neither the ancient writers nor the Holy Spirit are obligated to abide by our modern and western standards of what constitutes good vs. bad interpretation. And there are different approaches to interpretation even in our context so why wouldn't there be in Paul's?

From the above cited book ('Echos'), the author breaks the issues into 5 groups (you'd be in #3 and 5, I assume):

Posts 1289
Kiyah | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 29 2021 10:51 AM

DMB:

Kiyah:
I don't think Paul was a bad exegete. I think Paul (being Jewish and a Pharisee) took a more midrashic approach to interpreting and applying scripture, inspired by the Holy Spirit. Neither the ancient writers nor the Holy Spirit are obligated to abide by our modern and western standards of what constitutes good vs. bad interpretation. And there are different approaches to interpretation even in our context so why wouldn't there be in Paul's?

From the above cited book ('Echos'), the author breaks the issues into 5 groups (you'd be in #3 and 5, I assume):

Great discussion. I've added this book to my wishlish. Too bad it's not in a bundle or a base package <shakes fist at Faithlife>.

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