KYLE? Odd missing link(s) for Denzinger

Page 1 of 1 (11 items)
This post has 10 Replies | 0 Followers

Posts 26755
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Aug 25 2019 10:34 PM


(Cited by DS numbers, except for Vatican II)

NICAEA I (325)

126                                      465
130                                      465
Creed                                  465


Catholic Church, Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2nd Ed. (Vatican City: Libreria Editrice Vaticana, 1997).

When I hover on 126 I get a preview of DS 126 ... as when I hover on 465 I get a preview of CCC 465 as I would expect. So the index is working as I would expect. But when I hover on 130 and Creed I get nothing on hover ... not even the change in the mouse pointer. I think I ran into another anomaly but I can't find it again.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1010
LogosEmployee
Kyle G. Anderson | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 26 2019 8:37 AM

This is because--to the best of my knowledge--DS 130 doesn't exist. It appears Denzinger jumps from 129 to 132 so there is no target location in our library.

Posts 10101
Forum MVP
NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 26 2019 10:10 AM

Kyle G. Anderson:
This is because--to the best of my knowledge--DS 130 doesn't exist. It appears Denzinger jumps from 129 to 132 so there is no target location in our library.

Not a big-c Catholic here, but I believe it's different: Original Denzinger (Sources of Catholic Dogma) is in Logos, is cited as SCD xxx and has a secondary reference to Denzinger-Schoenmetzer. Now when giving the decisions of the first council of Nicea, SCD 57 corresponds to DS 129 (=DH 129, the most recent edition, I read that Denzinger-Huenerman kept the DS numbering) . The next document in SCD, SCD 57a corresponds to DS 132. in between is a letter to the Egyptians, mentioned but not printed in SCD, which is part of the DS/DH collection and given the numbering DS 130ff there.

You can see this when comparing SCD 57 with the ToC of DH from 2005 which is online: https://d-nb.info/970984669/04     

It's time to get DS or DH into Logos.

And by the way, searching for Denzinger in the store I found that the great library https://www.logos.com/product/36325/catholic-answers-library states it does not have Dynamic Pricing - but it does. Would be great to pick up a number of interesting books at a great dynamic price - but for the fact that what it does not state is that it is not deliverable to my non-US country. I infer this is because it contains the US CCC  I think you had other products where you then automatically offer an "international version", which would be appropriate here. The algorithm hurts me unnecessarily: I already have the US CCC from looooooong ago.

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

Posts 955
Deacon Steve | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 30 2019 7:53 AM

Kyle G. Anderson:

This is because--to the best of my knowledge--DS 130 doesn't exist. It appears Denzinger jumps from 129 to 132 so there is no target location in our library.

Isn't there a mapping between the 1957 version of Denzinger (what we have) and post 1963 versions of Denzinger (what the universal Catechism uses)?

Posts 10101
Forum MVP
NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 30 2019 10:06 AM

Deacon Steve:

Kyle G. Anderson:

This is because--to the best of my knowledge--DS 130 doesn't exist. It appears Denzinger jumps from 129 to 132 so there is no target location in our library.

Isn't there a mapping between the 1957 version of Denzinger (what we have) and post 1963 versions of Denzinger (what the universal Catechism uses)?

Yes there is. But the 1957 Denzinger ("SCD") does not contain the document that is assigned numbers DS 130 and DS 131 in the post-1963 versions of Denzinger, DS and DH. I'm not sure if we have that in any other ECF collection or if it could be shared as a PB source.

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

Posts 955
Deacon Steve | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 31 2019 9:29 AM

I'm probably missing something obvious...  I went through your first post again and I'm missing something still.  I was looking at my hard copy (1957) and I'm only seeing one number that is printed in outside margin of the page for each historical reference throughout the book.  Here is what is looks like for 130 and what I see in Verbum for the same resource.  It seems that 130 is the same in both, but the Verbum resource has another DS number in brackets.  What's with the two numbers in Verbum? 

[not sure why this png file is loading sideways Tongue Tied

Posts 10101
Forum MVP
NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 31 2019 2:12 PM

Deacon Steve:
I'm probably missing something obvious... 

yep. At least I thought we are not discussing SCD 130, but DH 130 which is something like SCD 57

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

Posts 26755
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 31 2019 3:24 PM

This is my table of the Denzinger codings - the CCC index does not state the edition of Denzinger so far as I can see.

 

Dates

Editions

Editor

Coding

1854-1883[1]

1-5

Heinrich Denzinger

Denzinger

1888-1900

6-9

Ignaz Stahl

Denzinger

1908-1921

10-13

Clemens Bannwart, Johannes B. Umberg

Denzinger

1922-1951

14-27

Johannes B. Umberg

Denzinger

1952-1957

28-31

Karl Rahner

Denzinger

1963-1976

32-36

Adolf Schönmetzer

Denzinger-Schönmetzer

1991-2012

37-43

Peter Hunermann

Denzinger-Hünermann



[1] Date is of the death of Heinrich Denzinger rather than the publishing date of the fifth edition.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 955
Deacon Steve | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 2 2019 3:12 PM

Thanks for posting this MJ.  I had not seen this information before.

Here is some additional information I've beenable to pull together regarding your original question and some comments from others.  Hopefully is helps.

Yes, we are talking about The Sources of Catholic Dogma (SCD) that is in the Logos/Verbum catalog.  It’s just the popular title of the resource, the content of which is the Thirtieth Edition of Henry Denzinger’s Enchiridion Symbolorum (1957) and it includes Denzinger’s original numbering system.  At one time they were in most Logos Catholic (pre-Verbum) and Verbum base packages (US) – not sure now. 

Around 1963 (I believe) Adolf Schönmetzer updated and edited the Enchridion and changed the numbering to account for new information that had been added.  Hence, Denzinger- Schönmetzer (DS) was introduced. 

In a sense, and in a partial way, DS numbering was introduced in Logos’ edition of SCD some time ago.  Either Andrew or Louis had the resource coded with "DS" numbering (2nd screen shot above) from some source that I do not know.  SCD has the original Denzinger numbers (untagged) with the later DS numbering where it mapped to the older resource (tagged).  This is why 130 is not an active link as MJ is asking about at the top of this post.

Here is some information regarding the numbering from a blog post Louis had done some time ago:

https://blog.verbum.com/2012/06/sources-of-catholic-dogma-helpful-hints/

DS numbering does contain 130 but, unfortunately, the current edition of SCD we have in Logos/Verbum is dated and does not have that information.  It was added by Schönmetzer in the editions attributed to him.  We would need a more current version of the Enchiridion Symbolorum such as this one from Ignatius Press:

https://www.amazon.com/Enchiridion-Symbolorum-Compendium-Definitions-Declarations/dp/0898707463/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Enchiridion+Symbolorum+Denzinger&qid=1567461712&s=gateway&sr=8-1

As for the version of the Enchiridion Symbolorum used in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, here is the citation:

DS - Denzinger-Schönmetzer, Enchiridion Symbolorum, definitionum et declarationum de rebus fidei et morum (1965)

Here is some helpful information on Denzinger and the  Enchiridion Symbolorum:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Joseph_Dominicus_Denzinger

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enchiridion_symbolorum,_definitionum_et_declarationum_de_rebus_fidei_et_morum

 

Posts 26755
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 3 2019 2:39 AM

Thanks for doing the research ... we now have an answer to my question.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 3084
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 6 2019 7:02 AM

Now we just need the up-to-date edition of Denzinger. Vote for it here.

Page 1 of 1 (11 items) | RSS