What's mine isn't mine

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Clint Cozier | Forum Activity | Posted: Sat, Aug 31 2019 6:29 AM

A year or so ago, I started to do my primary sermon prep work in a competing program. I've used crossgrades to move most of my major commentary and reference series over there during the last year. The last of my major critical series is the WBC. With both companies offering a $399 price point over the Labor Day weekend, I thought it was my best opportunity to do this transition. I originally purchased WBC in Logos as part of a larger Nelson Bible Reference Bundle in 2012. That bundle contained something like 200 books. I decided to sell that whole bundle and use the funds to purchase the series on the other platform. I located a buyer then called Faithlife customer service to make sure I understood the transfer process. I've now called in twice and was told the same thing both times: every time I made an upgrade that included WBC (for example, my upgrade from Logos 5 Platinum to Logos 6 Platinum), I "connected" WBC to an ever larger web of titles. I was told this happened at least three times in addition to my original purchase. I was told that there was simply no way to separate the original 2012 purchase from my entire library, no way to sell that original collection outside of my entire library. I was close to this same sell and purchase routine last winter, and at that time Faithlife raised no issues like this. As a very longstanding customer, I'm surprised to realize  that I cannot manage my Logos resources in a manner I think best for my current workflow. Apparently, my tendency to upgrade worked against my ability to manage the assets in that library at a level of granularity of my choosing. To say that I am profoundly disappointed would be an understatement.

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 31 2019 6:56 AM

Plus, they absolutely refuse to document (for you), how a volume arrived in your library ... so you can follow their Byzantine rules. Supporting the church is selling stuff, not sharing it. Hello.

Libby was so much nicer ... she showed how you purchased the volumes. Each purchase a fond memory.


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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 31 2019 11:13 AM

Clint Cozier:
I'm surprised to realize  that I cannot manage my Logos resources in a manner I think best for my current workflow.

Two thoughts:

  1. What other eBook store allows you to "sell" your licenses? Certainly not Amazon! 
  2. Would you rather have dynamic pricing or the ability to sell whatever you wanted, whenever you wanted? NOTE: This would require that you purchase multiple copies of the same resource when, for example, you purchase the WBC on sale after having previously owned several titles. 

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DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 31 2019 11:17 AM

The blessing and the curse of dynamic pricing! I love it, but I hate it at the same time.  You just gotta learn how to live with it 👍😁👌

DAL

Posts 375
Clint Cozier | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 31 2019 12:34 PM

Ah, but Faithlife doesn't sell e-books....they sell digital libraries. I wouldn't invest what I've got into Logos into a "normal" e-book seller, but a digital library is a different thing. . . or perhaps not? I would rather be able to break apart my library if needed in roughly the same iterations in which it was built. With respect to dynamic pricing, I'm in total agreement with Faithlife.....I should only buy a book once. How does that mean they loose anything if I opt to sell the book thus removing it from all the various collections in my library that comprise my license? My guess is that it's a licensing management problem on the backend that is driving this. It does seem to fall particularly hard on people who have multiple upgrades over a long period of time. Caveat emptor!

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 31 2019 1:35 PM

An unforeseen consequence of dynamic pricing! Since FL used your WBC as the basis for discounting your L5 and L6 purchases they'd need to be able to go back and back out your discount and charge you that in addition to the transfer fee. I am sure they don't have a way to do that at this point, (and you might not like how much they'd need to charge). Licensing issues might also apply, but it may simply be the inability at this point to back-out your WBC from your L5 and L6 packages.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 31 2019 1:49 PM

Mark Smith:

An unforeseen consequence of dynamic pricing! Since FL used your WBC as the basis for discounting your L5 and L6 purchases they'd need to be able to go back and back out your discount and charge you that in addition to the transfer fee. I am sure they don't have a way to do that at this point, (and you might not like how much they'd need to charge). Licensing issues might also apply, but it may simply be the inability at this point to back-out your WBC from your L5 and L6 packages.

I wouldn't say 'need'; absent sloppy contracting, the verb is 'want'. And I've no financial need to 'sell' volumes, but I'd hate to try and 'give' to less well off Christians.


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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 31 2019 1:59 PM

The thing I’m confused about is I don’t remember WBC being included in base packages. Am I mistaken?

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 31 2019 3:52 PM

Graham Criddle:

The thing I’m confused about is I don’t remember WBC being included in base packages. Am I mistaken?

I don't either.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 375
Clint Cozier | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 31 2019 5:03 PM

It may be that remnants of the 140 or so other books originally in the 2012 purchase were a part of those upgrades (since I don't remember WBC in the Platinum package either), but the C.S. reps both cited those upgrades as reasons why WBC could not be separated out from the library. 

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Ronald Quick | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 31 2019 5:04 PM

Aside from the individual resources or small collections, it would be difficult for me to sell any portion of my library with all the different upgrades I've purchased over the years. I have no desire to get rid of my library and realize that this will probably only occur when I pass it along in my will.

As someone else said, this is the downside of dynamic pricing.  On the other hand, I also remember customers advocating for dynamic pricing because they didn't think it was right to pay full price to purchase an upgrade that contained many resources they already owned.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 1 2019 8:45 AM

Clint Cozier:
Ah, but Faithlife doesn't sell e-books....they sell digital libraries. I wouldn't invest what I've got into Logos into a "normal" e-book seller, but a digital library is a different thing. . . or perhaps not? I would rather be able to break apart my library if needed in roughly the same iterations in which it was built.

Well, no, they sell both. You can pick up a book, a bundle, a collection, or a library. Dynamic pricing works across the field. 

Clint Cozier:
How does that mean they loose anything if I opt to sell the book thus removing it from all the various collections in my library that comprise my license?

I can't speak for this specific instance, but to speak of it in general: 

If you owned 5 books and then purchased a collection which also held those 5 books, there would be two choices on FL's part:

  1. Sell you the collection at the full "collection price" offered
  2. Sell you the collection at a discounted price based upon your previous ownership.

You agree that #2 is preferable. However, you no longer own a license for the single books, you own a license for the collection. The "collection" price is for the entire collection. You can't pick and choose which volumes you want and still get the "collection price" discount. 

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 1 2019 9:14 AM

Clint Cozier:
How does that mean they loose anything if I opt to sell the book thus removing it from all the various collections in my library that comprise my license?

Imagine this (made-up) scenario:

  1. You buy a small collection for $500.
  2. You then buy a bigger collection that also contains all the books in the smaller collection. It should cost $1,500 but because you already own the smaller collection, you only pay $1,000.

Are you really saying that you should then be able to sell the first collection from your library? Or is it reasonable for Faithlife to say that if you want to sell the smaller collection you also have to sell the bigger collection?

I post more about this here: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/127656/830909.aspx#830909 

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Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 2 2019 7:23 PM

Mark Barnes:

  • You buy a small collection for $500.
  • You then buy a bigger collection that also contains all the books in the smaller collection. It should cost $1,500 but because you already own the smaller collection, you only pay $1,000.

Mark, your example may be a bit of a non sequitur because of how you listed the prices. If you'd used $500, $1500, and $800, it would be easier to defend. As stated, the logical answer to your next question

Mark Barnes:
Are you really saying that you should then be able to sell the first collection from your library?

is, "yes."

Changing gears: My problem with the policy isn't that things can't be resold because of the entanglements, but that so many details fail to be communicated up front. I was a couple years into Logos (with an academic discount) before I found out I couldn't resell resources bought with an academic discount. But wait, then I was told I could, even though it was against the rules. Sort of. So I dropped the academic discount, even though I was still entitled to it.

Most people getting into Logos are led to believe, either by ads, 'friends,' or whomever that reselling resources is always a possibility. In reality, it isn't always possible (and Mr./Dr. Cozier's example is one of hte most convoluted I've seen...its a new one to me). And even if it might be possible, it might not be possible (see Denise's example about getting help figuring out how a resource was obtained...I've fought that battle myself, to no avail).

In fact, if someone were able to gather up all the complaints revolving around "I didn't know" (like Clint's) posted in these forums and put them into one summary document that was publicly available, FL might not be able to sell another copy of the software. And that's just the ones that get posted here; a majority likely don't.

I don't know who's ultimately at fault (most probably, the buyer is ultimately responsible...I blame myself for not asking more questions) but I know that if I'd known then what I know now, I'd never have bought into Logos, in spite of all the positives. There's been too much frustration for the money I've spent. I suspect there are quite a few other customers who think like I do.

And generating a high volume of buyer's remorse is not a viable long-term business model.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 3 2019 1:57 AM

Doc B:
Most people getting into Logos are led to believe, either by ads, 'friends,' or whomever that reselling resources is always a possibility.

That's a bold claim. I'd be interested in seeing your evidence for that.

As far as I can see, Faithlife's own description of the licence transfer process seems both reasonable and very clear: https://faithlife.com/faq

  • Licenses must be transferred in the same configuration in which they were purchased. (For example, if you want to transfer a resource you purchased as part of a bundle, you must transfer the entire bundle.)
  • You cannot transfer resources that were purchased at an upgrade or dynamic price (unless you are transferring your entire library).
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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 3 2019 6:04 AM

Mark Barnes:
That's a bold claim. I'd be interested in seeing your evidence for that.

I honestly can't recall anyone who buys something, and thinks it can't be re-sold. Just trying to think back over (embarrassed) 60+ years.  I remember a music festival, and the banjo-ist played a Civil War era banjo (South Mountain in Maryland). I asked ... I got.  You never know!

And the 'very clear' FAQ text is news to me. Not that I care ... in a few years, I'll gift the whole caboodle.  The funny part is, the lucky recipient will be at the end of the transaction line. I'll warn them.  This whole set of rules is for Christians ... that's the really funny part.


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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 3 2019 7:14 AM

Denise:
I honestly can't recall anyone who buys something, and thinks it can't be re-sold.

When you purchase a physical product, yes. When you purchase an album on iTunes? A digital movie on Amazon? An eBook from Kobo? You can't re-sell any of those! 

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 3 2019 7:53 AM

JT (alabama24):

Denise:
I honestly can't recall anyone who buys something, and thinks it can't be re-sold.

When you purchase a physical product, yes. When you purchase an album on iTunes? A digital movie on Amazon? An eBook from Kobo? You can't re-sell any of those! 

No offense, JT, but I take my Bible-studying seriously (as you do). And, when I entered the Logosian food chain, it was ALL physical, and assumed to be give-to-fellow-believer.  Subsequently "pay 20 smackers". Subsequently, Byzantium (you can read-in the inference).

And I still buy CDs.. 33's. And love my hard-copy Aramaic Bible.


Posts 2811
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 3 2019 11:28 AM

Mark Barnes:
I'd be interested in seeing your evidence for that.

My evidence is the many posts right here in these forums saying exactly that, along with the Facebook group 'Logos Resales' and personal experience.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 2811
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 3 2019 11:29 AM

Mark Barnes:
the licence transfer process seems both reasonable and very clear

So explain the OP in this thread.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

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