Please stop pushing NT Wright

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This post has 60 Replies | 1 Follower

Posts 17
CharlyG | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Sep 8 2019 9:13 AM

N T Wright has gone off the rails and is no longer orthodox. Stop making him seem like the be all and end all of authors. His views on Paul and penal substitution are absolute heresy. Wretched has a couple of videos with MacArthur and Johnson pointing out just a few errors.

He may have been orthodox in his earlier writings, but unworthy of anyone';s attention now.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 8 2019 9:21 AM

Hi Charly,

The Logos forums aren't the place to discuss theology, but to discuss how to use Logos Bible Software. The forum is used by thousands of people around the world who don't always agree on every theological topic. Perhaps you should email someone privately at Faithlife if you feel strongly about N. T. Wright?

Posts 6311
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 8 2019 10:07 AM

I agree with Mark! Please, follow and respect the forum rules.  Any resource that is sold in the Logos website is sold for research purposes regardless of anyone‘s particular theological point of view.  Remember:  Test all things; hold fast what is good (1 Thessalonians 5:21).

Also, act like a man too (1 Corinthians 16:13).  And this is where I disagree with Mark: Don’t email Faithlife, email or call NT Wright. He’s your brother and if he has drifted then go talk to him instead of putting him down and gossip about him here.  You’re not looking good yourself by doing that and you‘re failing to follow the divine instruction found in Matthew 18:15-20! Who has really drifted here? You, by not talking to your brother first like Jesus told you to do (Matthew 7:21; Luke 6:46)! 👍😁👌

DAL

Posts 2235
mab | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 8 2019 11:17 AM

Bob has stated in the past that Logos publishes a lot of material that is known as heretical. Who knows how much stuff actually is?  It's up to everyone to do their own due diligence.

Discernment is something that every believer needs to keep on the front burner. The New Testament is filled with warnings about it. And they are simply a magnified echo of warnings that began all the way back in the Pentateuch.

The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter

Posts 191
Puddin’ | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 8 2019 8:02 PM

I’ll say again, supposed “heresy” is in the eyes of the beholder!  And, precisely who determines “heresy?”  Nicea, Constantinople, Chalcedon?  In fact, what many consider “orthodox,” I (and many, many others) would designate as “heresy” when tested by God’s Word alone.  The councils of men do not equal biblical “orthodoxy.”

Think I’ll actually look into some of Wright’s works now ;)!

Posts 38
Chi Shun Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 8 2019 9:18 PM

Hey CharlyG,

I agreed with you wholeheartedly that NT Wright's teachings on Paul and Penal Substitution are false doctrines and it makes me cringe whenever I see his books promoted.

What you also need to understand, however, is that as much as we love to use Logos, its priority is not to necessarily guard sound doctrine. It is a business and its goal is to provide ALL available tools and resources that is related to the bible (sound or not sound) to whoever wants to study the bible. So some of these resources are going to be of the truth, some will not be. What I've learn to do is to simply ignore those resources I know I don't agree with and focus on those I know would be of help to me. 

Posts 10110
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 8 2019 9:33 PM

Puddin’:
Think I’ll actually look into some of Wright’s works now ;)!

Or Crossan's prepub collection. Thought I'd never see that in Logos, but maybe I never looked.


Posts 191
Puddin’ | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 8 2019 10:07 PM

Denise:

Puddin’:
Think I’ll actually look into some of Wright’s works now ;)!

Or Crossan's prepub collection. Thought I'd never see that in Logos, but maybe I never looked.

Ahhh, didn’t think of him.  I do read his name referenced in a fair amount of journal papers, etc.  Think I’ll add him to the list.

Posts 1097
Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 8 2019 10:09 PM

n/m

Posts 84
Rick Carmickle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 8 2019 10:50 PM

 I happen to like much of what NT Wright has written, although I am still exploring certain nuances of his theology.

However, I think the original post is simply pointing out that Wright gets a lot of publicity on Logos.  And I think it is unnecessary to pummel him as a rule breaker and report him to the authorities. Let the post live or die on its own. It’s not about debating Wright’s theology, it’s about Logos’s publicity of Wright.  Having said that, I am looking forward to his coming book this November. 

Posts 6311
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 9 2019 2:33 AM

Rick Carmickle:

 I happen to like much of what NT Wright has written, although I am still exploring certain nuances of his theology.

However, I think the original post is simply pointing out that Wright gets a lot of publicity on Logos.  And I think it is unnecessary to pummel him as a rule breaker and report him to the authorities. Let the post live or die on its own. It’s not about debating Wright’s theology, it’s about Logos’s publicity of Wright.  Having said that, I am looking forward to his coming book this November. 

The OP called NT Wright a “Wretched” and his teaching heresy — That seems to be the gist of his post.  If he wants to vent and use name calling and accuse another person of heresy, then the Biblical way to do it is to go to Wright not to FL or the forums.

DAL

Posts 65
Phil Quigley | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 9 2019 5:15 AM

DAL:

The OP called NT Wright a “Wretched” and his teaching heresy — That seems to be the gist of his post.  If he wants to vent and use name calling and accuse another person of heresy, then the Biblical way to do it is to go to Wright not to FL or the forums.

DAL

Just a note, I don't believe the OP called NT Wright "Wretched." I believe he was refering to the show "Wretched" hosted by, I believe his name is, Todd Friel. You can find "Wretched" on YouTube.

Posts 450
J. Remington Bowling | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 9 2019 7:46 AM

CharlyG:

N T Wright has gone off the rails and is no longer orthodox. Stop making him seem like the be all and end all of authors. His views on Paul and penal substitution are absolute heresy. Wretched has a couple of videos with MacArthur and Johnson pointing out just a few errors.

He may have been orthodox in his earlier writings, but unworthy of anyone';s attention now.

So look at it this way: let's take your two statements (one more implicit) as true:

(1) Wright is heretical.

(2) Lots of people are influenced by Wright. 

Are these two statements necessary or sufficient for their works to be in Logos? No! Rather, I would suggest, this is a good reason in favor of Wright's works to be in Logos. Why? 

If Wright is influential, then it's important to demonstrate his errors. Logos is a research library. It makes study more efficient. So, for example, if you wanted to demonstrate that Wright was heretical or in error then having his works in Logos would be extremely useful. And if Wright is influential, then it's all the more important to demonstrate his errors, right? 

For example, Douglas Moo and Thomas Schreiner are two theologians who have attempted to demonstrate where and why they think Wright is wrong about certain things (e.g., in their respective Romans commentaries). This obviously requires that Moo and Schreiner be familiar with and interact with Wright's body of work. Now whether or not they used Logos I don't know, but if they did this would have made perfect sense and you are able to quickly compare Wright and, say, what Moo says about Wright through Logos.

So it seems like whether one agrees with you or disagrees with you, we should want more of Wright in Logos.

Posts 10110
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 9 2019 8:05 AM

Looking at the OP's (short) complaint, as previously noted, it's how Mr Wright is marketed. Imagine glorious terms promoting Mr Ehrman. The Logosian  emergency rooms would be flooded.

But I suspect (and don't know), Logos,com seems to be moving into autopilot. Whatever ships from the publishers (marketing copy). Yesterday's bizarre Crossan seems the new approach (looks like auto-created).

Then, there's 'dox'. Ortho-dox. Some of us aren't dox'ers, much less ortho's.


Posts 1080
Myke Harbuck | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 9 2019 9:02 AM

Denise:
Looking at the OP's (short) complaint, as previously noted, it's how Mr Wright is marketed. Imagine glorious terms promoting Mr Ehrman. The Logosian  emergency rooms would be flooded.

Absolutely brilliantly stated, and dead on the mark! Thank you.

I concur with others. The OP had nothing to do with theological debate. He simply was trying to state what Denise very well stated here.

Myke Harbuck
Lead Pastor, www.ByronCity.Church
Adjunct Professor, Georgia Military College
Mac OS 10.13.6 High Sierra, Mid 2015 iMac, 2.5GHz i7, 32 gbRAM, 1tbSSD

Posts 1355
Ben | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 9 2019 9:11 AM

Let's stop pushing NT Wright... and start pushing Robert Alter! :) 

"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton

Posts 450
J. Remington Bowling | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 9 2019 9:34 AM

Denise:

Looking at the OP's (short) complaint, as previously noted, it's how Mr Wright is marketed. Imagine glorious terms promoting Mr Ehrman. The Logosian  emergency rooms would be flooded.

But I suspect (and don't know), Logos,com seems to be moving into autopilot. Whatever ships from the publishers (marketing copy). Yesterday's bizarre Crossan seems the new approach (looks like auto-created).

Then, there's 'dox'. Ortho-dox. Some of us aren't dox'ers, much less ortho's.

That's a good point. If Logos really is going to take a neutral approach then they should have a neutral template for the works on the platform (or just let each publisher determine how the work will be promoted). 

(Since I don't pay much attention to the advertising or product descriptions though, I'm taking it for granted that the works are promoted in glowing terms that would be unsavory to those who find Wright heretical.)

Posts 3023
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 9 2019 10:49 AM

I think that some of the arguments made thus far have conflated the marketing of Wright's work and Faithlife stocking Wright's books.

It may also be worth noting that the OP's objection as expressed was not to Wright's work being marketed, but how it is being marketed (presumably through Logos branded channels).

Different authors and different works are marketed in different ways from and through different Faithlife brands. For example, Verbum marketing for the works of St. Thomas Aquinas differs from Logos marketing for the same works. Verbum is an explicitly Catholic brand. Logos is substantially a broadly Protestant brand, Orthodox offerings notwithstanding. It could reasonably be described as non-Catholic Christian. Faithlife is also responsible for the Lexham brand... which positions itself theologically in a particular portion of contemporary Protestantism (that I'm intentionally not further delineating here to avoid unnecessary controversy). Logos is thus broader than Lexham.

Much as Verbum could (hypothetically) be criticized for promoting stuff that is contrary to Catholicism, criticizing Lexham for promoting/publishing materials contrary to Lexham's publicly articulated mission and vision could also be appropriate. The Logos brand, however, encompasses a lot more stuff that Lexham does. Faithlife... still more.

Faithlife customers can certainly be forgiven for struggling with the nuances of Faithlife brands' marketing. I haven't even mentioned Noet, Noet Ebooks, Faithlife Ebooks, etc.

Posts 1010
EastTN | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 9 2019 5:34 PM

SineNomine:

I think that some of the arguments made thus far have conflated the marketing of Wright's work and Faithlife stocking Wright's books.

It may also be worth noting that the OP's objection as expressed was not to Wright's work being marketed, but how it is being marketed (presumably through Logos branded channels).

Different authors and different works are marketed in different ways from and through different Faithlife brands. For example, Verbum marketing for the works of St. Thomas Aquinas differs from Logos marketing for the same works. Verbum is an explicitly Catholic brand. Logos is substantially a broadly Protestant brand, Orthodox offerings notwithstanding. It could reasonably be described as non-Catholic Christian. Faithlife is also responsible for the Lexham brand... which positions itself theologically in a particular portion of contemporary Protestantism (that I'm intentionally not further delineating here to avoid unnecessary controversy). Logos is thus broader than Lexham.

Much as Verbum could (hypothetically) be criticized for promoting stuff that is contrary to Catholicism, criticizing Lexham for promoting/publishing materials contrary to Lexham's publicly articulated mission and vision could also be appropriate. The Logos brand, however, encompasses a lot more stuff that Lexham does. Faithlife... still more.

Faithlife customers can certainly be forgiven for struggling with the nuances of Faithlife brands' marketing. I haven't even mentioned Noet, Noet Ebooks, Faithlife Ebooks, etc.

This is a great insight.  Each of Faithlife's distribution channels has its own unique brand identity and target customer base.  That isn't bad.  Branding is a way of communicating to consumers about what they can expect from you.  You know what to expect when you go to Taco Bell, and it's a bit different from what you expect when you go to McDonald's, or to Pizza Hut.

My sense is that complaints about particular books tend to arise when the marketing seems, in the minds of at least some users, to be inconsistent with the the Logos (or Verbum, or Faithlife ebooks, etc.) brand image.  There can be a variety of reasons for this, such as clumsy marketing or unrealistic customer expectations.  I suspect a big part of it is that the Logos brand is shifting (perhaps inevitably) as a result of the dramatic increase in the number and variety of resources that are available.  I hope FaithLife manages that process well, because brand confusion can be a real problem for a business. 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 9 2019 6:19 PM

Aaargh ... this flap has given me a sense of obligation to read more of Wright to see what the fuss is all about.  My list was already very long so I'm not particularly pleased. 

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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