2.04 GB of Downloads: Another call for selective downloads please

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Michael Lyman | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 6:06 AM

That's your all's opinion because you have unlimited downloads and a fast connection and don't factor in the number of people who have a major issue with this around the globe and have been saying so since November.

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Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 6:22 AM

BobbyTerhune:
I wonder how many users Logos has outside the US that this is a problem for?
I live outside the US and it is not a problem. However in a strange twist of fate, I in visiting in the US, and the internet at my hotel is slowing than snail. Started downloading last night at 10:30 and still only at 65% of the 2.0 GB. 

Everything ever written in Religion and Theology formatted for Logos Bible Software.Logos Youtube Channel

Posts 514
Bobby Terhune | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 6:40 AM

Your right, it is my opinion, but just how many people are we talking about here? I'm not trying to be unsympathetic here but Logos has developed this product based on the majority of their user base and market. They have been forthright in letting us know that if you buy this product you will need a computer that has been made in the last two years to run it properly. Yet people complain that it runs slow on their older system. Indexing and re-indexing is a pain, but I believe worth it for the benefits I receive. Yet indexing has received way more complaints than the problem with the size of downloads.

Thankfully Logos has kept Libronix 3 for folks with older computers and limited internet service. Logos has always built for the future, and I'm glad Logos pushed the envelope to bring us more power to harness our library's information. I would hope that in a few years this issue of bandwidth will not be as important as it is today. It seems as if all countries are trying to improve their infrastructure including the US.

 

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 7:22 AM

BobbyTerhune:
Jim, ... Most customers don't know how to even begin to do what you are asking, let alone remember what they did or did not do several months ago.

I agree that they are unrealistic scenarios from both Logos' and user's perspectives.

I note that the 2435 MB download notice from Melissa stated "The following updated resources may be downloaded to your computers if version 4.0d is installed (and if Automatically Download Updates is enabled)."  - emphasis is mine. So, did users of 4.0c not get a download? Will they only get the resources after choosing to update to 4.0d and how do they do that? However, I don't think there is a choice because 4.0d is required for the resources, so the software will be downloaded & updated and then the resources will be downloaded, followed by a full re-index.

An option to limit downloads as I mentioned in my previous post seems to be the most feasible way to achieve the goals that Logos has set. But a minimum download of about 512 MB would have to be accepted because of the size of the largest "resource" that Logos will require ie. the Biblical People, Places, Maps and Things files used in the Guides. Also, indexing will occur after each "package" has been downloaded unless Logos offer to index only after all packages have been downloaded (which requires much more management).

BobbyTerhune:
I wonder how many users Logos has outside the US that this is a problem for? Logos has over a half a million users and 27,000 forum members and only a dozen or so people complain about this issue.

You've heard of the silent majority of courseSmile

Dave
===

Windows & Android

Posts 533
Jonathan Burke | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 7:29 AM

BobbyTerhune:

Logos has over a half a million users and 27,000 forum members and only a dozen or so people complain about this issue.

I live outside the US, and I have cheap, unmetered Internet access from a local service provider. I hardly notice these updates. I do feel for those who are less fortunate.

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Posts 33
Stephen Coles | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 8:04 AM

I run Logos4 on my desktop and a laptop.  Internet connection is turned off on the laptop to avoid this hassle (and totally unrealistic considering it's normal internet access is over metered 3G).  I only download to my desktop (still a pain) but, once all the indexing is finished, I back up the whole Logos folder to a backup drive (FYI I use Microsoft's SyncToy to send it to a 4TB NAS on my 1GB home network).  I then use SyncToy on the laptop to update the laptop copy (and then turn off the internet options).

Unfortunately, my wife has to run the updates separately for her PC as she has to have a separate license.

Posts 3661
Floyd Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 8:22 AM

BobbyTerhune:

b has answered this several times, the data IS connected to the program. Logos is not going to create a customer service nightmare to do what you are asking. Yikes! your suggestions of a half updated program or worse, without your knowing the inner workings of the program, you want to choose some updates and reject others. Most customers don't know how to even begin to do what you are asking, let alone remember what they did or did not do several months ago.

I suggest we all wait until Logos 4 is finished, and then see where we stand at that time. I wonder how many users Logos has outside the US that this is a problem for? Logos has over a half a million users and 27,000 forum members and only a dozen or so people complain about this issue.

Why don't you volunteer to pay for the extra expense incurred by Jim and others who have download caps.  I did read somewhere that ISPs in the US are also considering download caps.  It is an issue that may concern all of us in the near future.

Blessings,
Floyd

Pastor-Patrick.blogspot.com

Posts 62
Ken Hicks | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 8:46 AM

BobbyTerhune:

I suggest we all wait until Logos 4 is finished, and then see where we stand at that time. I wonder how many users Logos has outside the US that this is a problem for? Logos has over a half a million users and 27,000 forum members and only a dozen or so people complain about this issue.

 

 

Jim,

This is my first post, but I have been a  long-time Logos user. Having spent 16 years in the graphic design business before entering ministry, I am accustomed to paying top dollar for professional tools. Logos is no different than the Adobe Creative Suite (and is similarly prices) in that sense. These price points carry with it expectations of a certain level of refinement with regards to the end product AS MARKETED AND SOLD. I am growing weary of the repeated "wait until Logos 4 is finished" or the "be patient its scheduled for a future update in the 2nd or 3rd quarter of 2010" advice offered by many (though well-intentioned no doubt).

No offense intended to you as an individual. I simply mean to state that Adobe would never have had the gall to sell a BETA version BECAUSE they would face the justified wrath of their own user base. When I upgraded to Logos 4 I thought I was buying a mature program... not a beta. But without a "print" function (that even the free E-Sword has), and several other incomplete or promised but missing features, Logos 4 is anything but ready for prime time. Additionally, I find their marketing approach to be mere redirection from the reality that you are paying top dollar for a BETA. While this may have been clearly stated in the user boards, a user board is not the decision point for a purchase or an upgrade, the primary site is that point. That is partly my fault for not checking the product more closely before purchasing and I accept my role in it. Logos has blame to share for putting an incomplete product out for sale rather than mere beta testing. I am not trying to accuse them of being deceitful, only that this is a beta development version should be more prominently stated in their promotional material. I love the new look of the program and the increased functionality as a whole, but we must look past the "thin candy shell" to see the reality.

BTW... I can tell you, living in a rural area, that bandwidth is an issue... and the user should not have to download ANYTHING that is 2gb as repeatedly as we have been forced to as Logos users. Then its "lather rinse and repeat" for my netbook installation after I finish with the desktop.  It is a mistake on your part to presume that just because a dozen or so people complain on the forum that they do not represent a much larger number of people not motivated to write. Painting with such a large brush is quite dangerous.

Ken

Posts 62
Ken Hicks | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 8:57 AM

Apologies. I drifted off topic and into rant mode, even addressed it to the wrong person (that pesky phone is a distraction sometimes)! Big Smile

Posts 1367
JimTowler | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 9:02 AM

Ken Hicks:

Jim,

This is my first post

Hi Ken.

Huh? You seem to be putting words or ideas into my mouth that others have spoken, rather than me.

I live in New Zealand, and have a speed-capped dataplan, but currently unlimited traffic volume. However, my ISP discounted this plan on 20th May, and will soon force me onto a lesser one. Based on my traffic usage for the last month, on the best new plan currently listed, my traffic will cost US$300-400 for a month. So you see, traffic volumes and speeds are something I care about a lot!!!

The Logos resource downloads yesterday (which took abut 10-12 hours) will be 10% or more of my monthly limit, before the ISP forces me to either (A) dialup speeds, or (B) Pay a surcharge for traffic, which was $20/GB last time I looked.

Posts 533
Jonathan Burke | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 9:06 AM

Ken, I take your point about Logos 4 being a beta version. However, for me the fact is that Logos 4 does everything it says on the tin, and does it faster and far more efficiently than absolutely anything else on the market. For all it's still in beta, it does everything I need it to do and more. Without this tool I wouldn't have been able to complete a 580 A4 page book on a theological topic, in a mere year and a half, on top of a full time job, a job, and a Masters degree.

I expect Logos 4 to do what the marketing says it does. And it does. There are a dozen or more refinements I wish it had, but they don't affect my use of the tool to do exactly what I want and exactly what it promises.

Different companies have different approaches. Microsoft and Adobe make us wait for a year or so between builds, so we were all stuck with Windows XP for years, and too long with Vista. Some of us would have preferred a 'Vista lite' somewhere in between Vista and Win7, bugs or not (it's not like XP and Vista were bug free, after all). As for updates, Windows is the king of updates. I don't know another program which updates more frequently than Windows.

Adobe releases extremely well developed and polished products, certainly. They are then patched over and over and over again through multiple updates between builds, in a manner not very distinguishable from Logos. How's that for polish? I currently have 1.1 GB of Adobe updates queued for CS4, that wonderfully expensive product with expectations of a certain level of refinement with regards to the end product as marketed and sold.

More than that, just about every Adobe product has a forum dedicated to it, full of irate users who still can't get a particular bug or incompatibility solved after a year or more. The problems my wife had with an earlier build of Premiere Pro were just horrendous, to the point that we uninstalled it and just waited for Adobe to release another build which worked consistently (forums were stuffed with users having the same problems we did, but repeated patches did nothing to solve the issues), which took almost a year. Almost a year!

I appreciate this doesn't mitigate your frustrations with Logos 4 and your issue with its downloads. But it's worth noting that the most polished products at this end of the market are neither bug free nor update free. In fact it's fair to say that products at this end of the market are more vulnerable to errors however polished they are as final releases, and more likely to require regular patching.

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JimTowler | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 9:14 AM

Ken Hicks:
Apologies. I drifted off topic and into rant mode, even addressed it to the wrong person ...

Thanks Ken.

 

Posts 62
Ken Hicks | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 9:19 AM

Jonathan Burke:

Ken, I take your point about Logos 4 being a beta version. However, for me the fact is that Logos 4 does everything it says on the tin, and does it faster and far more efficiently than absolutely anything else on the market. For all it's still in beta, it does everything I need it to do and more. Without this tool I wouldn't have been able to complete a 580 A4 page book on a theological topic, in a mere year and a half, on top of a full time job, a job, and a Masters degree.

I did not mean to imply that it was not a competent tool... merely an incomplete tool.

Jonathan Burke:

I expect Logos 4 to do what the marketing says it does. And it does. There are a dozen or more refinements I wish it had, but they don't affect my use of the tool to do exactly what I want and exactly what it promises.

I don't believe the ability to print or adequately implement handouts could be qualified as a mere "refinement." it would be like Adobe Photoshop being shipped without the ability to crop the image or export it for printing at the press.

Jonathan Burke:

Adobe releases extremely well developed and polished products, certainly. They are then patched over and over and over again through multiple updates between builds, in a manner not very distinguishable from Logos. How's that for polish? I currently have 1.1 GB of Adobe updates queued for CS4, that wonderfully expensive product with expectations of a certain level of refinement with regards to the end product as marketed and sold.

I would love if Logos would only need 1.1 GB of refinements every so often... but point taken. Still, logic suggests that a refined product would require less updates (but I guess that argument is self-defeating when you mention the word "Microsoft.") Big Smile

Jonathan Burke:

I appreciate this doesn't mitigate your frustrations with Logos 4 and your issue with its downloads. But it's worth noting that the most polished products at this end of the market are neither bug free nor update free. In fact it's fair to say that products at this end of the market are more vulnerable to errors however polished they are as final releases, and more likely to require regular patching.

Agreed.

Posts 533
Jonathan Burke | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 9:32 AM

Ken, your description of Logos 4 as competent but incomplete is an excellent one. I do agree. So the issue perhaps is to what extent Logos actually identifies clearly in its marketing, what the product can and cannot do. Personally I have zero need of printing, I live almost entirely in a paperless world. For me Logos 4 is a research tool not a word processor, though the ability export to .pdf or .docx would be nice.

Bob Pritchett has commented previously on the dilemma of releasing an 'incomplete' Logos 4 and a 'complete' product. One of my first posts on this forum was in fact to complain about missing features which I had used in L3. However, the list of missing features is large, and the list of customer wants is even larger. If we were to wait for a complete product, we would not see a line of code before next year. Instead, I've been using this excellent resource for six months.

Win 7 x64 | Core i7 3770K | 32GB RAM | GTX 750 Ti 2GB | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (system) | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (Logos) | WD Black 1.5 TB (storage) | WD Red 3 TB x 3 (storage) | HP w2408h 24" | First F301GD Live 30"

Posts 62
Ken Hicks | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 9:45 AM

My world is largely paperless, but there are times when a good printed copy of an article is needed. This argument between paperless and paper-based workflow reminds me somewhat of when PC's began to dump the diskette drives and serial ports in favor of USB ports. Still, many people utilize a hybrid workflow, stuck somewhere in the middle (either for practical or preferential reasons). Sometimes I just want to get away from the LCD screen for the sake of my eyes... cant do that in a paperless environment.

 

Posts 514
Bobby Terhune | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 10:48 AM

Ken,

You're right it is dangerous to try and paint with a large brush, and I need to be careful. And I agree Logos did not explain well what to expect in the early days of release. My first experience with indexing in the beta program was terrible, I think it took around 30 hours to complete! But I still think it's worth waiting for with a good measure of patience. Logos has proved it does listen, and I think if it's possible they will try and help with the bandwidth problem.

Concerning your point about downloads, if memory serves me correctly, I thought we have only had three large downloads, two drops of 2 gigs and one drop of 1 gig, that is over 8 months time.

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BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 10:54 AM

Dominick Sela:
A more likely scenario:

Jack Caviness:
Well said. Yes

Yes +1

Grace & Peace,
Bill


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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 11:43 AM

Ken Hicks:
I don't believe the ability to print or adequately implement handouts could be qualified as a mere "refinement." it would be like Adobe Photoshop being shipped without the ability to crop the image or export it for printing at the press.

I think that this is the crux of many people's irritation. Logos, and a large chunk of users as per Logos statistics, never saw Logos as a layout and print program. It's core function is research not presentation. Logos did have a deprecated product Lesson Builder that was a limited layout and print program but it was not widely used. As long as the user and developer have different views of what the product's primary goal is there will be disappointments and frustrations.

Rather than thinking of Logos 4 as a beta version, I think it is more accurately described as a product for which the "professional" and "enterprise" versions were not initially available. I do think Logos misjudged the importance of some statically small usage features that were critical to those who used them. Addressing this has slid the timeline on intended features. The features I used most in Logos 3 are still not available in Logos 4 but I recognize that building one's own timelines, diagrams and PBB's probably weren't the most used features. So I wait - not patiently but with understanding.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 611
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 3:05 PM

BobbyTerhune:
Your right, it is my opinion, but just how many people are we talking about here?

More than are complaining because Bob has made it quite clear that this will not change and so many people have stopped complaining. This download is inconvenient for me because it coincided with me making a purchase which I now assume is part of the update that is currently at 19% on my system. Right now this negates the benefits of online purchasing for me and I would like to see the download system modified to prioritise resources that are not currently installed over updates.

I used to recommend Logos 3 and still buy copies of eBible for other to encourage Bible study much as I like Logos 4 it is still not a product I would recommend to someone else. This issue along with others like the ability to spell check notes needs to be taken seriously. Personally I'm beginning to worry that the need for cross platform compatibility is hindering the development of the Windows platform.

Unfortunately changing to an alternative product is not a serious option but I'm slowly beginning to wish that it was.

God Bless

Graham

Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke

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Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 3:34 PM

Not to diminish the problems of those who have bandwidth limitations, but I just wanted to weigh in that I personally do not mind the large downloads. In fact I really appreciate that Logos would be willing to shell out the cost for the bandwidth on pushing such large downloads all so that we could have upgraded software (and not have to wait months and months or longer for them to have enough upgrades to justify burning new discs and shipping them out). 

 

I understand its a problem for some, but I suspect that it is a blessing for the majority.

Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org

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