2.04 GB of Downloads: Another call for selective downloads please

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Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 3:34 PM

I'm going to agree with Dom S here...that sounds like a very likely scenario.

I've been on too many of these:

Ring...Hello tech support:

Them: "my monitors dead!"

Me: "did you check to see that your monitor has power?"

Them "of course you idiot!"

Me: "Ok, I'll be there as soon as I can"

(After traveling 1.5 hours to get there....and find that the monitor is not plugged in, so I plug it in.)

Them: "hey you fixed it...thanks!"

 

Less user serviceable parts = less headaches. In this case....multiple download tiers....

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 8601
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 7:07 PM

Robert Pavich:
I've been on too many of these

I have to agree Robert, what you've described there is a classic case of PEBKAC = Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair. 

Wink

Having once tried to start a business repairing computers and doing tech support for free for many many people I can confirm the reality.

Truth Is Still Truth Even if You Don't Believe It

Check the Wiki

Warning: Sarcasm is my love language. I may inadvertently express my love to you.

Posts 1367
JimTowler | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 8:24 PM

Robert Pavich:
Less user serviceable parts = less headaches. In this case....multiple download tiers....

Actually, its more like an adjustment another a line; with "Winner A at one end, and "Winner B" at the other.

In the case of "Downloads are All or Nothing", the setting is too far towards Logos winning, and some impacted customers losing.

Just scan the forums for the numbers of customers that are leaving the L4 product for L3, or for products by other companies.

Maybe the point is, Logos has decided its fine to have some customers walk, to make support for the rest cheap! I guess thats what companies do.

Posts 533
Jonathan Burke | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 8:35 PM

Jim, I think you need a lot more information than you have in order to make statements like that credibly. Logos has been struggling to address the massive increase to their userbase, which has placed a huge load on their resources, and they have spared no expense to improve customer support in the process.

I can well understand why they would prefer not to make even more work for themselves when they are barely able to cope with the current workload. The more people calling customer support, the less support for all of us. It isn't just about the company's money, it's about the quality of service you and I receive. I don't want thousands of customers calling customer support every week, because it reduces significantly the amount of time available to each of us.

Win 7 x64 | Core i7 3770K | 32GB RAM | GTX 750 Ti 2GB | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (system) | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (Logos) | WD Black 1.5 TB (storage) | WD Red 3 TB x 3 (storage) | HP w2408h 24" | First F301GD Live 30"

Posts 1367
JimTowler | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 9:02 PM

Jonathan,

It may not seem so, but I want the exact same thing. A high-quality application that does the things we need. And for Logos to be able to support it with the standards and quality we require. And for them to make an acceptable profit, and continue in busness, and continue to improve and release additional resources.

I don't want them to get thousands of calls that could be avoided.

I just see it done a different way. Rather than remove "complex" features, I'm saying to have them work in "solid" ways. They don't need to increase support costs once built. In fact, they will reduce them.

So very far off topic now, but the first major application I wrote in C , was designed to firstly do the two things that were the biggest support nightmare with all the other existing applications doing the same basic task. I designed and wrote it to recover frome "issue" under all common failure modes that plaged the others. Once that worked, I built the rest on top. Its only my view, and many seem to not agree, but I don't think the plumbing for downloads is right in Logos4.

Posts 533
Jonathan Burke | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 9:50 PM

JimT:

It may not seem so, but I want the exact same thing. A high-quality application that does the things we need. And for Logos to be able to support it with the standards and quality we require. And for them to make an acceptable profit, and continue in busness, and continue to improve and release additional resources.

I don't want them to get thousands of calls that could be avoided.

Jim, you can say all that without accusing Logos of being prepared to have customers walk just so they can make more money for themselves.

JimT:
I just see it done a different way. Rather than remove "complex" features, I'm saying to have them work in "solid" ways. They don't need to increase support costs once built. In fact, they will reduce them.

I am sure Logos has exactly the same aim. If you know what they're doing wrong and exactly how to fix it, I suggest you contact them and explain where their programming is going wrong.

Win 7 x64 | Core i7 3770K | 32GB RAM | GTX 750 Ti 2GB | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (system) | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (Logos) | WD Black 1.5 TB (storage) | WD Red 3 TB x 3 (storage) | HP w2408h 24" | First F301GD Live 30"

Posts 1367
JimTowler | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 30 2010 11:38 PM

Jonathan,

I think you have misunderstood at least some of what I'm saying. Its OK we have different views on some or many matters.

This whole thread is really trying to remind Logos that for some of their customers around the world, a 2 GB download from time-to-time is not a small or unimportant matter.

If you read my posting history, you will see I often make positive comments about the company and the products. It really is my single most important position. I am a customer of this company, and a user of their products. I like the product and the company. Really!

I also ask for a number of things that I believe are important to me, and maybe useful to someone else. I don't expect to get them all, but if I think they are important, I'm going to ask. Thats what customers do.

I've also often suggested possible ways or methods that something might be able to be done different, better or new. Logos has done some of them, put some on a list for review, and said "no", or "no for now" on others. Thats how it works.

Sometimes I get frustrated if other users bag a good idea because its not something thats important to them. I'l learning to try and not react to everyone that disagrees with me. So, for now, I'm going to see if I can resist not saying too much more in this thread. No, its not about me having the last word. I'm sure others with add something here yet. I'm just see if I can not over-react and go try and get some code working, that I should be doing rather than writing here.

Really, I think we are looking for the same kinds of things in the big picture.

Posts 533
Jonathan Burke | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 1 2010 12:04 AM

Jim, I understand you're a fan of the company and the product. It's just that occasionally you make statements which are way over the top, and constitute unsubstantiated, unnecessary, and unwarranted slights on the company's motives.

Win 7 x64 | Core i7 3770K | 32GB RAM | GTX 750 Ti 2GB | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (system) | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (Logos) | WD Black 1.5 TB (storage) | WD Red 3 TB x 3 (storage) | HP w2408h 24" | First F301GD Live 30"

Posts 4570
Forum MVP
Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 1 2010 3:56 AM

BobbyTerhune:
I wonder how many users Logos has outside the US that this is a problem for? Logos has over a half a million users and 27,000 forum members and only a dozen or so people complain about this issue.

I came trawling the forums this morning because I have had a number of downloads every time I restart logos and very little indexing. I seems strange.

But the time spent downloading has affected my work flow and interfered with access to other parts of the web.

But if a dozen people take the time to complain then you can be sure that there are a hoard behind them fuming and a cohort who just don't bother with the program again.

Smart companies listen to the complaints of the few because in reality they are likely to be the complaints of many.

Anyway - Where to I find details of all these downloads today?

tootle pop

Mike

Posts 18634
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 1 2010 4:03 AM

Mike Binks:

Anyway - Where to I find details of all these downloads today?

http://community.logos.com/forums/t/19010.aspx

Posts 1690
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 1 2010 10:17 PM

Sorry I'm so late to this. :-)

Fortunately, several people have already stepped in to make my point: it's logistically impossible for us to "hold some of your calls." We are, in fact, trying to hold "typo" updates, and almost everything we are pushing out is in the A) or B) categories -- things that need to be kept in sync with the app.

The biggest things are generally the media resources (some of which have been updated since we shipped in order to correct important metadata errors -- this format was new to Logos 4 and we learned some things along the way) and reverse interlinears, which touch everything. It would be difficult to code the app to not crash if everyone ran different versions of the very-integral reverse interlinears.

We've been updating the rev int's because you asked for it: full-screen reverse interlinear display (which we never planned, but did in response to user requests), and then revising the database with extra fields/info to implement requested features and enhancements.

Now it's true you could argue we should have held the product, tested all of this thoroughly, gotten more user feedback before shipping, etc. That would just have taken, um, about as long as it's taken... because we've just kept working hard on it. This gets back to the many-times-argued discussion we've had in the forums: should we have held Logos 4 or shipped it? And, as I've pointed out (with no malice intended) you can choose that "hold it till it's perfect!" scenario right now by simply continuing to use Logos 3 for another six months or so. (Yes, I understand that might make you upset -- that we dared to ship short of perfection -- but I've got as many or more users on the other side who wanted it out there, and are happy with it now.)

I imagine that soon after the next major release (which should have almost all the "missing features" of Logos 3) you'll find that resource updates slow down dramatically. I find them annoying, too, but hope you realize they just mean you're getting a constantly improved product!

As for solutions: we aren't going to let you pick and choose, for all the reasons exhaustively given. It really is logistically impossible. There is hope: patching. Google Chrome and other "updated all the time" apps send down patch files that represent just the differences between version 34 and version 35 of a file. Then code runs on your machine to turn your copy of v34 into v35.

The problem is, somebody out there had the Internet turned off since v23. So they need the v23 -> v35 patch. Or the v1 -> v35 patch, which could be bigger than v35.

And while Chrome has "one app" to update, we've got 10,000+ individual resources.

I think there are solutions, and there are "off-the-shelf" solutions, extensively tested over many years, that can help with this scary-complex process. But it's still a lot more complicated than delivering the latest file, and introduces many more potential failure/corruption points.

There's also the question of the best use of our coding resources: do you want printing first, or patching? Especially since it's like that this year we'll grow out of the frequent updates phase, and things should stabilize.

 

Posts 1367
JimTowler | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 1 2010 10:32 PM

Thanks Bob,

As the one that started this thread, thankyou for taking the time again to reply.

- Jim

Posts 26027
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 1 2010 10:38 PM

Bob Pritchett:
There's also the question of the best use of our coding resources

Well I certainly have my opinions but they're just not happening - lectionaries, early translations such as the Gothic, Anglo-Saxon, Armenian, notes linked to multiple passages ... Big SmileSeriously, while I've had to wait for some of the things that matter most to me, I think Logos has generally done a good job of prioritizing features. One of the things that continues to surprise me on the forums is the degree to which users fail to understand that in order for them to get their No. 1 priority, someone else's No. 1 priority is delayed. We can't all get it now ... although at least I am perfectly capable of wanting it all now. Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 1 2010 10:56 PM

Ken Hicks:
I simply mean to state that Adobe would never have had the gall to sell a BETA version BECAUSE they would face the justified wrath of their own user base. When I upgraded to Logos 4 I thought I was buying a mature program... not a beta. But without a "print" function (that even the free E-Sword has), and several other incomplete or promised but missing features, Logos 4 is anything but ready for prime time.

As a 20+ year user of Adobe products, I'd be happy to put our performance at our size up against their performance when our size. Today, however, they're over $3.5 billion in annual revenue, so while I'm flattered to be the "mature program" league, I don't think we're really in the same league.

(And it seems I'm patching/upgrading Acrobat every other time I run it.... more often than Logos 4...)

I am not trying to make excuses. Just explanations. (Excuses with a nicer label!)  I think we've been very up front about exactly what was and wasn't in the program -- we mentioned the lack of printing, for example, right at the start. We've also been clear that the system likes an Internet connection, stores data in the cloud, and is going to having a specific list of features added. (Which we've been delivering, along with other "top requested" features we hadn't even planned on.)

I am also sympathetic to the limited/capped bandwidth countries. I confess I didn't know about the issues in Australia, for example, when we designed Logos 4.

With that said... everything involves trade offs, and to survive Logos has to make choices. I know when our choice isn't the one you would have made, it feels like we're ignoring you. But...um...well, okay; we are ignoring you. But we have to ignore somebody all the time, to pay attention to the other somebodies with other concerns. 

We are presently "ignoring" Linux users, Windows 98 users (they still exist!), etc. Because if we tried to make Windows 98 users happy, we'd be sacrificing a lot of potential functionality and usefulness for Windows 7 users. (And to make Linux users happy, we'd have to.... [joke left unfinished to avoid angry mobs])

All that to set up the bandwidth problem: it's a very small number of users who live in areas with bandwidth caps. I don't mean to trivialize the importance of it to those users (and we are already designing smarter, friendlier solutions), but those users are a very small part of our market. If "push came to shove", it's probably cheaper to simply cut whole countries out of our marketing plan than it is to implement the solutions they would ideally want.

(Important note: I appreciate all our users, and am not trying to threaten anybody. I love you all! :-) I'm just pointing out that our priorities do -- must -- reflect the bigger groups of users first. Going with the masses isn't my political philosophy, or a good way to run a church, but it's a pretty safe way to run a business.)

Now you may think I'm making the wrong call. And maybe I am -- I can't read every user's mind. (That's why I do spend so much time reading the forums.) But I've also got access to data users don't: sales figures, product returns as percentage of sales, call volume, emails from people who don't use the forums, etc. And I can tell you that those internal metrics are telling us that Logos 4 is making "more users more happy" than anything we've ever done before.

I'm not saying this to show-off my superior dataset, or to say you're wrong; you're right for your experience, and it's legitimate, and we are listening. But I want to point out that overall we aren't flying blind, and ultimately this "follow the majority" strategy helps us serve you better, too: we're adding programmers and staff as fast as we can, and will have more people to address your concerns and build cool features and even address "minority market" concerns, too. (I like to point out that it's our strong English-language product sales that give us the huge base and resources required to build cool tools for tiny-market scholarly concerns. You could insist that we focus only on scholarly tools and resources, to the exclusion of the "majority" of English-language Bible students, but we'd have a lot fewer resources to put on the problem.)

And of course, a final reminder that you can simply turn "Automatically download updates" off, and wait months between DVD updates. This will get you exactly the same behavior as if we immediately ceased pushing 2 gb downloads on users.

Sorry for the length and rambling!

Posts 1367
JimTowler | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 1 2010 11:12 PM

Bob Pritchett:
All that to set up the bandwidth problem: it's a very small number of users who live in areas with bandwidth caps. I don't mean to trivialize the importance of it to those users (and we are already designing smarter, friendlier solutions) ...

Thankyou!

Posts 6
Timothy D. Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 2 2010 4:16 AM

Could users at least get a notice of how large the download will be at the time of notification? While I don't yet have a bandwidth cap, there are times when I need my bandwidth for something else at the moment and don't want to download 1GB. But I know it's a 40 MB update, I've could update immediately. The current workflow of start the download, wait for the popup of "Logos is downloading XXX MB(GB) of updates," then canceling the download because it's too large is a pain.

IMO, a better solution that seems like could be implemented relatively easily would be to have the Updates Available popup redesigned to something like:

Title: Updates Available

Text: Click to download available updates of 2.2GB (re-indexing will be required)

This would alert me to leave the laptop on and set Logos to update overnight.

Just an idea. I realize that lots of "easily implemented" ideas aren't that easy, and you have to make decisions about when to do them, but it would help me to know how big the download is before I start it, regardless of how frequent the updates might be.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 2 2010 5:03 AM

Timothy D. Lee:
Could users at least get a notice of how large the download will be at the time of notification?

Did you mean the notification of a download when Automatically Download Updates = NO? I agree that including the size with that Notification would be valuable.

Dave
===

Windows & Android

Posts 6
Timothy D. Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 2 2010 5:15 AM

 

Timothy D. Lee:
Could users at least get a notice of how large the download will be at the time of notification?

Dave Hooton:
Did you mean the notification of a download when Automatically Download Updates = NO? I agree that including the size with that Notification would be valuable.

Thank you for the clarification. Yes, that's exactly what I mean. I had forgotten that Automatically Download Updates was an option, since I turned it off very shortly after installing v4.

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Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 2 2010 5:25 AM

Bob Pritchett:
(And it seems I'm patching/upgrading Acrobat every other time I run it.... more often than Logos 4...)

And patching/bloating the Reader was one reason I uninstalled that product and went elsewhere! 

Bob Pritchett:
And of course, a final reminder that you can simply turn "Automatically download updates" off, and wait months between DVD updates. This will get you exactly the same behavior as if we immediately ceased pushing 2 gb downloads on users.

I think that allowing the download to be split into multiple chunks/packages (minimum 512 MB) would alleviate most concerns whilst maintaining the policy of not picking and choosing resources, because I doubt that you seriously want users to be up to date on software but out of date on resources for "months"!

Dave
===

Windows & Android

Posts 16
Slabs | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 2 2010 8:52 AM

I am one of the users that have to pay for my internet per MB. Downloading more than 2Gb of data will cost me about $60 (not including my normal monthly fees) just for updating. This is not a small issue for some of us. Furthermore, our internet connections are not always very reliable or fast.

Perhaps if Logos would bring out Media-only DVD's more often. Paying $4 for a DVD with the updated resources is way better. Although the postage and wait times for international users would of course be a bummer.

Just my 2cents

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