Hebrew Translation Question in LHI - Ezekiel 8:1 (for FL)

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Posted: Sat, May 9 2020 4:28 PM

Noticed there was a star note in the LHI and when I put my cursor over it, it said:

This really surprises me. The word that isn't translated is the one highlighted below.

This is the first person pronoun (either "I" or "me"). This is indicated by RS1-S, but also is stated in the pop-up below.

First of all, the designation "singular" for the word 'Aadhohn is suspect (see Wikipedia entry in my comment below).

If this were translated, the translation would read "the hand of My Lord YHWH". The question is, WHY is it not translated?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 9 2020 5:11 PM

1. What are the textual variants?

2. What are the translation notes?

3, Do you own any translations that use your proposed version?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 9 2020 10:14 PM

MJ. Smith:
1. What are the textual variants?

Not sure there are any textual variants in Hebrew--I doubt there are. The issue pertains to how it's translated. Perhaps you meant variants of translation?

MJ. Smith:
2. What are the translation notes?

Haven't found any that pertain to this particular issue in Logos (but see Wikipedia entry below).

MJ. Smith:
3, Do you own any translations that use your proposed version?

The Message does, but it is a very loose paraphrase, so I'm not sure how much it can fill the roll of good evidence.

This actually explicitly shows what I'm saying. This is the Strong's entry for the word. Ol' George might have a come apart, but it is what it is.

Found a couple of other interesting things. The next pic and the last pic are from L3, so it's possible there has been some updating in the more recent versions. The first shows that according to L3 Anderson-Forbes analysis the word ':Aadhohn is considered to be plural in the text. If that is the case, a strict translation should read:

"hand of my Lords YHWH"

This agrees with an article ("Names of God in Judaism") I found on Wikipedia...

I'm not a fan of the "plural of majesty" (I think it's just a plural: Father, Son/Word, seed/children), but I'm pretty sure that is what Strong was referring to by way of calling it "an emphatic form". This is contradicted by FL in their own analysis of this phrase. If you look at my previous post, the last pic shows the analysis of ':Aadhohn in L8 as being "singular". Definitely want an explanation of that.

This last pic shows the ESV Reverse Interlinear with the Strong's entry for the lexeme 'ny (':aniy).

So, it seems pretty well established that the translation in English should be "hand of my Lord YHWH" or strictly (my preference) "hand of my Lords YHWH".

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 9 2020 10:34 PM

Excellent job of answering your own question ... only took a little prodding and I don't even know Hebrew ... but I do miss George.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 9 2020 10:43 PM

Me too. Crying

I didn't really answer the question altogether. I'm wanting to know why FL chose to ignore the "my" and "not translate" it. My guess is tradition, but perhaps they have a more tangible reason.

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 6 2020 1:50 PM

STILL WAITING ON AN EXPLANATION FROM FL REGARDING THEIR CHOICE OF TRANSLATION.

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 7 2020 2:02 PM

The case above is not an outlier in any way whatsoever. It is a consistent translational practice. Here is another instance--I'm sure there are hundreds more where these come from--but in this case it is very clear that what I said in the first couple of post is happening here.

In Psalm 86:12 in Hebrew, the phrase ':Adohnaay ':Elohhay occurs. The word ':aniy (in yellow) occurs twice in a row in this sentence, once attached to 'aadhohn (lord) and once attached to ':elohhiym (god-s). Depending on whether it functions as subject or object, ':aniy means "I" or "me", or when it functions as a suffixed possessive (as here), "my".

In relation to ':Elohhiym, it gets translated as expected...thus "my God" (in green), but in relation to ':Adhohnaay (the same plural "LordS" we saw above), ':aniy is "not translated" (see below), so instead of the on-the-page "my Lords", we just get "O Lord". Strictly speaking, ':Adohnaay ':Elohhay should be translated "my Lords my Gods".

Regarding the choice to not translate, again I ask: "Why?" This isn't a choice of little consequence; it actually has the potential to be ground-shaking. I would like to get a fairly involved response, considering the weight of this concept in broad context. I think everyone who uses Logos deserves an answer to this question.

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LogosEmployee

Various translations often treat אֲדֹנָ֥י this way because it is being rendered as a proper noun. This is a usage listed in BDB 3.b.  In this case, it's not just LHI that does this for Ezekiel 8:1, but also NASB, ESV, NIV, NRSV, NJPS, etc. 

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 8 2020 6:47 AM

Jeremy Thompson (Faithlife):
In this case, it's not just LHI that does this for Ezekiel 8:1, but also NASB, ESV, NIV, NRSV, NJPS, etc.

Yeeaaaaah...but LHI is an INTERLINEAR, and the Hebrew translation should be literal...hyper-literal even. You've got a whole line devoted as a blank canvas for your artfully crafted and curated English interpretation.

That...plus there's no good reason to ignore what the Hebrew actually says, especially since people LOOK TO YOUR RESOURCE FOR INSIGHT INTO WHAT THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE ACTUALLY SAYS. It really is kinda the whole point.

Also, did "but everyone else is doing it" recently get cleaned up and become an acceptable reason for anything while I wasn't paying attention?

Jeremy Thompson (Faithlife):
Various translations often treat אֲדֹנָ֥י this way because it is being rendered as a proper noun.

Okaaay...but...isn't ':Elohhiym ALSO being used as a proper noun? That really CAN'T BE the determining factor...else the versions would read "O Lord O God". If it's just unjustifiable tradition, that's fine. Just go ahead and say it.

Jeremy Thompson (Faithlife):
This is a usage listed in BDB 3.b.

Yes, but...(dirty little secret)...a significant number of the lexical "rules" that exist in resources like BDB are collage more than taxonomy, where conclusions are derived from a perceived (but potentially erroneous) notion of what "context" suggests. I know context has been crowned KING!, but there are numerous cases where the assumptions regarding what the context of a given text's "scenario" is are misjudged and just flat out wrong. And sometimes presuppositions (often of the doctrinal sort) prevent prima facie conclusions from being considered or taken seriously.

In this case, I'm really thinking that over 300 discomfiting instances of ':Elohhiym being referred to as "my Lords" is the motivation behind ignoring this issue to the point of near extinction. Wallpaper is so much more "respectable".

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 8 2020 8:08 AM

David Paul:
And sometimes presuppositions (often of the doctrinal sort) prevent prima facie conclusions from being considered or taken seriously.

Translations are customers. And customers are doctrinal. A purchased volume yesterday tried to translate Egyptian papyri from the time of Moses ... sure enough. But the translation had trouble between literal, contextual, and religious'y (doctrinal). 

That's why a time-sequenced series of translations is so good ... also across multiple languages (Ge'ez!). Regarding LHI (and Libby), a knowledge of the author-source 'tendenz' is helpful (noted when I was analyzing with neurals).

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 128
LogosEmployee

Everyone has actually been doing this for a very long time. The Jewish scholars who translated the Septuagint rendered אֲדֹנָ֥י יְהֹוִֽה in Ezekiel 8:1 with just the word κυρίου ("of the Lord") in this instance: https://ref.ly/logosres/logoslxx?ref=BibleLXX.Eze8.1. This appears to be their common practice, as they render אֲדֹנָ֥י יְהֹוִֽה in other places like Isaiah 61:1 with just the word κυρίου ("of the Lord"): https://ref.ly/logosres/logoslxx?ref=BibleLXX.Is61.1. This then makes its way into the New Testament in Luke 4:18, where Jesus cites Isaiah 61:1 and just the word κυρίου ("of the Lord") is used for אֲדֹנָ֥י יְהֹוִֽה.

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