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MWW | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 19 2020 1:55 AM | Locked

MJ. Smith:
s ".... get off calling a church racist by framing it as a question?" That's a beating your wife question ... i.e. fallacy hound is tugging hard at his leash.

No disrespect MJ, but in this case the history is beyond question and tugging even gently on the leash will reveal not a fallacy hound but an “elephant in the room”. The question remains... has there been an apology? I am not aware of one. The beaten wife and the rest of her family at the very least deserve an apology!

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 19 2020 2:26 AM | Locked

How many of the denominations mentioned in this article have issued apologies for their racist past? https://www.nae.net/black-white-race-american-denominations/ 

EDIT: I apologize for this post as it should have been obvious that it would fan the flames of an already inappropriate thread. I should have simply reported the thread and said nothing. Instead I fantasized that it might be a teachable moment. Again, I apologize for my poor judgment.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 19 2020 2:49 AM | Locked

The forum is supposed to be about Logos, and Logos resources.

To our Mormon friends here, I'm sorry for the turn this thread has taken.

MWW:
has there been an apology?

I think we're all guilty, and racism still manages to exist within churches today, even if a denomination has apologized for specific offenses.

If you've been the victim of racism, I'm truly sorry. But let's please not misuse this forum to hold one denomination to some particular standard, or require proof of their apology.

My top three Logos 9 Wishlist items: Carta, Dark mode, and Hebrew audio bible, please.

Posts 219
MWW | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 19 2020 4:00 AM | Locked

MJ. Smith:
How many of the denominations mentioned in this article have issued apologies for their racist past? 

Most of them have. Methodists, Presbyterians, Baptists, Anglicans and some Pentecostals have issued apologies.

I realize that this is probably moving beyond forum guidelines but let me share my perspective. I am a white pastor of a multi-racial but primarily black congregation. I understand how racial bias can pull at people’s hearts. I have performed weddings for many biracial couples and have seen the resistance of family to this. Also, I have had the opportunity to preach in South Africa in churches that were divided racially, blacks sat in front and whites sat in back and I preached against racial prejudice and invited people to repent in three separate churches and was greatly encouraged as whites, blacks and coloreds all responded whole heartedly to the call to repentance... God was glorified! That is the essence of New Testament Christianity (Acts 2 & 13).

Also, I was raised as a Mormon and after my conversion to Christ/Christianity was called to the ministry. I pastored a Christian church in Salt Lake City, Utah. Thus I am probably aware more than most, that Mormonism has a deep history of racial discrimination that is much more offensive than simple racial bias or being influenced by the prejudice of a culture at large. Mormon leaders of the very highest rank classified dark skinned and black skinned people as being of the seed of Cain and having made it though the flood to be Satan’s people and as being cursed by God for choices made in their preexistence and thus they were denied the opportunity of being ordained into the LDS priesthood for well over a hundred years. That is beyond offensive.

Has there been an apology? I am not aware of one.

PS. If the forum administrator feels the need to delete my post for violation of forum guidelines... I understand that.

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David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 19 2020 5:10 AM | Locked

MWW:
  I’m wondering if there Is there is an official document of the LDS church where the church (...) 

I was attending a local branch of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints when the "change" was made.  Several Black members that I was attending with accepted the comments on the subject made at the time.  I do not know where you could find copies of what was handed out at that time.  [I had copies but I gave all of my resources from that church to a member of that church that needed a larger library when I left]

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David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 19 2020 5:15 AM | Locked

PetahChristian:

The forum is supposed to be about Logos, and Logos resources.

Yes, And, IMHO, some of what has been said shows the need to get more resources from that church into Logos. [[current documents: History is good but need up to date information]]

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 19 2020 5:30 AM | Locked

    We get offended easily. We hold onto our anger. We don’t forgive until we get an apology.

    My top three Logos 9 Wishlist items: Carta, Dark mode, and Hebrew audio bible, please.

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    PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 19 2020 5:41 AM | Locked

    David Ames:
    some of what has been said shows the need to get more resources from that church into Logos.

    1. It might show a need that we’re sinners, that we don’t love one another, etc.
    2. Not if it’s meant to be a cudgel that we use to beat someone else up.
    3. Asking for proof of wrongdoing seems... ironic? Hypocritical? Self-righteous?

    When the guidelines say, “Please do not discuss or debate biblical, theological, or other controversial topics,” yet we ignore them, we’re setting a terrible example.

    My top three Logos 9 Wishlist items: Carta, Dark mode, and Hebrew audio bible, please.

    Posts 219
    MWW | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 19 2020 5:49 AM | Locked

    PetahChristian:
    We get offended easily. We hold onto our anger. We don’t forgive until we get an apology.

    Certainly that can be true. But I don't believe 126 years of racial discrimination is being easily offended and apologies to and forgiveness from is certainly not required from me, but from the offended parties, primarily that being God and the Lord Jesus. 

    (1 Timothy 5:20–21) 20 Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.  21 I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality.

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    Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 19 2020 6:01 AM | Locked

    PetahChristian:
    We get offended easily.

    Definition: 'sin-ify' verb; 'sin-ification' noun; The assigning of sin to ones fellows, best done with loving rightness. Generally works best among several sin-ificators.

    Tippy-toeing into theology, but in the realm of progressive revelation, apology by the prophet would be saying the Diety made a mistake. Now, before one heads for Salt Lake City, remember 'the Church' (upper-case) slaughtered bunches of jews on those inspired words in John. And repeated the process with the native tribes (again, doctrine).

    I very much doubt Paul's 'neither' quote (jews/greeks, etc) ever took hold. 

    "I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

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    PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 19 2020 6:34 AM | Locked

    Denise:
    I very much doubt Paul's 'neither' quote (jews/greeks, etc) ever took hold.

    One day... one day.

    My top three Logos 9 Wishlist items: Carta, Dark mode, and Hebrew audio bible, please.

    Posts 435
    Mathew Haferkamp | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 19 2020 12:31 PM | Locked

    Is it safe to say that the people here believe that Mormonism is a denomination?  I did not read anyone make that clear.  

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    David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 19 2020 1:00 PM | Locked

    Mathew Haferkamp:

    Is it safe to say that the people here believe that Mormonism is a denomination?  I did not read anyone make that clear.  

    Maybe if we had their current and historic documents in Logos we could make that determination!   

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    MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 19 2020 1:10 PM | Locked

    The only source of which I am aware is The Mormon Church and Blacks: A Documentary History edited by Harris and Bringhurst out of the University of Illinois. See JSTOR site at https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.5406/j.ctt17t760w

    Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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    Mathew Haferkamp | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 19 2020 3:09 PM | Locked

    Thanks for that David.  But their are several books in logos will tell you a lot about Mormons.  Just didn't want to leave any doubt. 

    iii The Four Major Cults

    Hoekema, A. A. (1963). The Four Major Cults: Christian Science, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormonism, Seventh-Day Adventism (p. iii). Grand Rapids, MI: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

    Mormons

    Answered
    Verse by Verse


    Reed, D. A., & Farkas, J. R. (1992). Mormons: Answered verse by verse (electronic ed., pp. 1–3). Grand Rapids: Baker Book House.

    MORMONISM

    CHANGES,

    CONTRADICTIONS,

    AND ERRORS


    Farkas, J. R., & Reed, D., A. (1995). Mormonism: changes, contradictions, and errors (electronic ed.). Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House.

    How to Answer a Mormon, Torey

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    MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 19 2020 3:42 PM | Locked

    Mathew Haferkamp:
    But their are several books in logos will tell you a lot about Mormons.

    But to emphasize David's point, the books you list (none of which have I read) are books of non-Mormons' apologetics against Mormons rather than descriptions of Mormon beliefs as seen by Mormons. As a Catholic, I can tell you two classes of books you should never trust as sources of Catholic beliefs:

    1. books written by anti-Catholic apologists
    2. books written by former Catholics

    That is not to say that there are no good books in either category, merely that one must read them for what they are. I would expect the same to be true for other groups.

    Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

    Posts 435
    Mathew Haferkamp | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 19 2020 4:38 PM | Locked

    Well MJ I am Reformed.  I found it kind of funny that you compare Catholicism to Mormonism.  But Mormonism is not a denomination.  I will just leave it their, I just wanted this thread to state that in case someone was reading it and may have been confused.

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    MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 19 2020 5:21 PM | Locked

    Mathew Haferkamp:
    I found it kind of funny that you compare Catholicism to Mormonism. 

    And I find it funny that you find it funny -- the comparison was on a single attribute, "frequently misrepresented in the forums". I almost added Jehovah's Witnesses, non-trinitarians . . .

    Mathew Haferkamp:
    but Mormonism is not a denomination.

    Nor are Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox as "denomination" is a distinctively Protestant notion. According to the online etymological dictionary, the word is first attested for a religious sect in 1716. More seriously the OED defines "denomination" as "a recognized autonomous branch of a church or religion" - a common (rather than theological) definition that does apply to Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Mormons. I suspect you mean to say "Mormonism is not a Christian denomination" ... but given the range of definitions of the minimal requirement for the term "Christian", I wouldn't touch that with a five-thousand-foot pole. I am steeped in thinking in terms of groups having fuller understanding of the truth than other groups.

    Note for the theological use:

    Pocket Dictionary of Theological Terms:
    denomination, denominationalism. An organizational structure of several congregations who unite together on the basis of common doctrinal, organizational, ethnic, geographical or practical considerations even while meeting in separate localized situations. Denominationalism as a theory understands the church as consisting of a diversity of practices and beliefs under the umbrella of the larger term Christian while at the same time denying that any one Christian group can claim to be the exclusive manifestation of the church on earth. This is in contrast to sectarianism (see sect, sectarianism) which refers to the attitude in which a narrowly defined group sees itself as the only true manifestation of the church to the exclusion of all other groups.

    All of which shows why we need Logos for definition of terms - what "denomination" means to you as a Reformed is not what "denomination" means to me as a Catholic. I have to set aside my understand and translate into your "Reformed-speak" for us to not talk past each other. And I can identify the differences between your "Reformed-speak" and my "Catholic-speak" to help you understand that the term means different things depending upon the theological context. What I can't do is translate "denomination" into "Mormon-speak" ... I'd need a Mormon source to explain that to me.

    Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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    Paul Caneparo | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 20 2020 1:01 AM | Locked

    Mathew Haferkamp:

    Is it safe to say that the people here believe that Mormonism is a denomination?  I did not read anyone make that clear.  

    From the BBC website - so having no "denominational" bias:

    Both the Vatican and the policy-making body of the United Methodist Church have decided that Mormons must be rebaptised when converting to Catholicism or Methodism.

    This shows that the Roman Catholic Church regards Mormonism as varying in its essential beliefs from traditional Christianity. It does allow members of most Protestant and Orthodox churches to convert to Catholicism without being rebaptised.

    However Mormons require that everyone be baptised when they join their Church, no matter what background they come from.

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    MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 20 2020 3:09 AM | Locked

    Paul Caneparo:
    This shows that the Roman Catholic Church regards Mormonism as varying in its essential beliefs from traditional Christianity. It does allow members of most Protestant and Orthodox churches to convert to Catholicism without being rebaptised.

    Sort of ... in this case Wikipedia quotes the appropriate canon law - the canon law is available in Logos to check for yourself.

    Wikipedia:rebaptism:

    The Catholic Church holds that rebaptism is not possible:

    1272. Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation. Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated.

    The baptisms of those to be received into the Catholic Church from other Christian communities are held to be valid if administered using the Trinitarian formula. As the Catechism of the Catholic Church explains:

    1256. The ordinary ministers of Baptism are the bishop and priest and, in the Latin Church, also the deacon. In case of necessity, anyone, even a non-baptized person, with the required intention, can baptize, by using the Trinitarian baptismal formula. The intention required is to will to do what the Church does when she baptizes. The Church finds the reason for this possibility in the universal saving will of God and the necessity of Baptism for salvation.
    ...
    1284. In case of necessity, any person can baptize provided that he have the intention of doing that which the Church does and provided that he pours water on the candidate's head while saying: "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

    The 1983 Code of Canon Law (1983 CIC) addresses cases in which the validity of a person's baptism is in doubt:

    Can. 869 §1. If there is a doubt whether a person has been baptized or whether baptism was conferred validly and the doubt remains after a serious investigation, baptism is to be conferred conditionally.

    §2. Those baptized in a non-Catholic ecclesial community must not be baptized conditionally unless, after an examination of the matter and the form of the words used in the conferral of baptism and a consideration of the intention of the baptized adult and the minister of the baptism, a serious reason exists to doubt the validity of the baptism.

    §3. If in the cases mentioned in §§1 and 2 the conferral or validity of the baptism remains doubtful, baptism is not to be conferred until after the doctrine of the sacrament of baptism is explained to the person to be baptized, if an adult, and the reasons of the doubtful validity of the baptism are explained to the person or, in the case of an infant, to the parents.

    In cases where a valid baptism is performed subsequent to an invalid attempt, it is held that only one baptism actually occurred, namely the valid one. Thus baptism is never repeated.

    Or for the official position with regards to baptisms in the Mormon Church against these canons, see https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20010605_battesimo_mormoni-ladaria_en.html

    Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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