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Mattillo | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 20 2020 4:20 AM | Locked

Mathew Haferkamp:

Thanks for that David.  But their are several books in logos will tell you a lot about Mormons.  Just didn't want to leave any doubt. 

iii The Four Major Cults

Hoekema, A. A. (1963). The Four Major Cults: Christian Science, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormonism, Seventh-Day Adventism (p. iii). Grand Rapids, MI: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

Mormons

Answered
Verse by Verse


Reed, D. A., & Farkas, J. R. (1992). Mormons: Answered verse by verse (electronic ed., pp. 1–3). Grand Rapids: Baker Book House.

MORMONISM

CHANGES,

CONTRADICTIONS,

AND ERRORS


Farkas, J. R., & Reed, D., A. (1995). Mormonism: changes, contradictions, and errors (electronic ed.). Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House.

How to Answer a Mormon, Torey

 Don’t forget reasoning from the scriptures with the Mormons and Decker’s complete handbook on Mormonism 

Posts 435
Mathew Haferkamp | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 20 2020 5:06 AM | Locked

Thank you for that input Mattillo.  I just grabbed a few titles from my library.  

But I did find your post interesting MJ.  Just from personal experience when asking someone if they are a Christian a Catholic, Roman Catholic, Lutheran (I don't remember encountering any type of Orthodox) will say no I am Catholic, Roman Catholic, Lutheran but they don't consider themselves Christians why is that? 

Posts 630
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 20 2020 8:05 AM | Locked

Mathew Haferkamp:

Thank you for that input Mattillo.  I just grabbed a few titles from my library.  

But I did find your post interesting MJ.  Just from personal experience when asking someone if they are a Christian a Catholic, Roman Catholic, Lutheran (I don't remember encountering any type of Orthodox) will say no I am Catholic, Roman Catholic, Lutheran but they don't consider themselves Christians why is that? 


Assuming I haven’t totally misinterpreted your question, I’ve encountered some who think that the question “Are you a Christian?” means “Are you a Protestant?” I suspect their answer reflects that interpretation. 

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Mattillo | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 20 2020 8:31 AM | Locked

Mathew Haferkamp:

Thank you for that input Mattillo.  I just grabbed a few titles from my library.  

 Sure! I like Deckers.  after I posted I also remembered that Walter Martin’s kingdom of the cults had a section too but I haven’t read it yet. I bought it from fleb 

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Mathew Haferkamp | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 20 2020 9:09 AM | Locked

Yea Mattillo I thought of that one after I posted, good call.  

Now David I have never heard that before.  Do you have some kind of reference to that or just a guess? 

Posts 630
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 20 2020 9:51 AM | Locked

Mathew Haferkamp:

Yea Mattillo I thought of that one after I posted, good call.  

Now David I have never heard that before.  Do you have some kind of reference to that or just a guess? 

I've mainly seen this incident cited in Apologetics manuals where they say, "DON'T ever do this!" in talking to other Christians. I don't know if this will be a useful fact for you or not.

But I am coming from a Catholic perspective. It might not be the case for non-Catholics doing it.

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Mathew Haferkamp | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 20 2020 10:25 AM | Locked

Thanks for the answer.  I searched my library for  "DON'T ever do this" and received two hits and not near any apologetics.  Would you mind giving me a title, I hope that is in logos.  Thanks very much.

Posts 630
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 20 2020 10:42 AM | Locked

Not Logos. It was a Catholic Answers book. I'll see if I can find it. And I was paraphrasing. Sorry, I guess I made it look like I was making a direct quote.

[EDIT]: Searching my Logos for "Catholic not Christian", I was given a reference to a work called "Global Gospel" in the chapter "Later 20th Century" where the sample seems to be going in that direction. Unfortunately, I don't have the work to give the full quote. SO I don't know if this supports the point I was making or whether the context would be anti-Catholic.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 20 2020 1:31 PM | Locked

Mathew Haferkamp:
if they are a Christian a Catholic, Roman Catholic, Lutheran (I don't remember encountering any type of Orthodox) will say no I am Catholic, Roman Catholic, Lutheran but they don't consider themselves Christians why is that? 

Given that in nearly 3/4 of a century I have never heard a Catholic or a Lutheran say they are not Christian, I haven't the slightest idea. The closest I have heard is when people ask with a very specific definition of Christian  i.e. Christian = favored group only, they may say something to make clear that they are not part of that particular group but rather Christian in the sense of a broader definition.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Mathew Haferkamp | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 20 2020 1:53 PM | Locked

No MJ, it was just during the course of my day.  I was not even thinking about Catholic or the others.  Just talking to someone and then just asking them if they are Christian, not looking for anything except if they were saved or not.

Posts 435
Mathew Haferkamp | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 20 2020 1:56 PM | Locked

Thanks David, I don't have that book.  But what you were saying I must say I have never read, it must be a Catholic thing.  Not really wanting to get into Reformed vs. Catholicism, Thanks for looking!

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 20 2020 2:08 PM | Locked

Mathew Haferkamp:
not looking for anything except if they were saved or not.

Ah. that is exactly the answer!!! I know many Catholics with funny stories about some Protestant asking them if they are "saved". Probably no question makes a Catholic more uncomfortable because it is so far outside their normal vocabulary and world view. Catholics think in terms of being a member of the family of God/body of Christ, not individual salvation. They leave the final saved/not saved to God and therefore aren't concerned about it in the way the question implies.

In the context you supply, I can easily see Catholics, (High) Lutherans, (High) Anglicans, Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox all try to give an answer that implies they reject the question as presented.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 20 2020 2:19 PM | Locked

Good point. While most Christians would accept the meaning of Christian as "one who follows Christ," they might have certain assumptions about what following means to the other person. So, in saying "No, I'm..." they're probably acting on that assumption.

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Mathew Haferkamp | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 20 2020 3:33 PM | Locked

No again MJ, I said that is what I thought but I always asked them if they were a Christian and usually very early in the conversation and quite frankly that usually ended it.  If you want to continue this I tell you will exactly what I think of the Catholic church and the many many many mistakes or out right heresy it does.  So quite trying to poke holes in what I am saying, and let it go.  The only reason I commented on this thread was to make sure it was stated that Mormonism is NOT Christian and as far as I am concerned a cult, they should stay away from trying to normalize themselves by trying to call themselves Christian. 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 20 2020 3:47 PM | Locked

Mathew Haferkamp:
If you want to continue this I tell you will exactly what I think of . . .

No, the guidelines would be enforced. However your response implies you forget your words are only one part of what you communicate, and what you communicate is always in the context of who you are. This post tells me everything I need to know to understand why you received the response you did. David Wanat and I have provided the "why".

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 20 2020 3:58 PM | Locked

Mathew Haferkamp:
Mormonism is NOT Christian and as far as I am concerned a cult, they should stay away from trying to normalize themselves by trying to call themselves Christian. 

Well, in our neck of the woods, 'Christian' doesn't count. 'Born-again'.  I remember a local election a few years back, the mayor was invited to our church group at one of the homes. She said she was a Christian ... a member confidently told her that was a zero ... she wasn't born-again. Pretty much finished up the conversation.

So, I'd presume the Catholics and Latter Day Saints are now grouped in with a sizable share of Protestants. Probably meet in Antioch.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 20 2020 5:10 PM | Locked

David Wanat:
Searching my Logos for "Catholic not Christian", I was given a reference to a work called "Global Gospel" in the chapter "Later 20th Century" where the sample seems to be going in that direction. Unfortunately, I don't have the work to give the full quote. SO I don't know if this supports the point I was making or whether the context would be anti-Catholic.

Global Gospel: An Introduction to Christianity on Five Continents by Douglas Jacobsen Pg. 204:
Denominational loyalties had already been in decline before the culture war began, but they have eroded much faster during the last four decades. While Catholics still know they are Catholics, and most Protestants know they are Protestants, specific denominational identities have been largely set aside. Rather than calling themselves Lutheran or Baptist or Presbyterian, American Protestants are much more likely to say they are “just Christians.” In fact, the word Christian has begun to function as a synonym for Protestant. This is so much the case that even some Catholics now describe themselves as “Catholic, not Christian” to distinguish themselves from Protestantism. Rather than linking themselves to denominations, increasing numbers of American Protestants identify themselves religiously by their connections with individual congregations. In fact, congregation-centered, non-denominational Protestantism is one of the fastest-growing sectors of Christianity in the nation. This is especially true of megachurches with sufficient resources to go it alone, but many smaller congregation have taken this path as well. The nondenominational sector of Protestantism now accounts for 7 percent of the total American population. The nondenominational movement has become so strong that even congregations with continuing denominational ties often downplay those connections, because denominational affiliation has become more of a detriment than an asset in attracting new members. Christianity in America has always been diverse and offered a wide range of choices. In the past, those choices were often defined denominationally; today they are likely to focus on congregational connections.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 20 2020 5:32 PM | Locked

Thank you. I suspected there was more to the quote than I could see.

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Paul Caneparo | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 21 2020 12:14 AM | Locked

I like this quote from Michael Bird. The point being different denominations will take different viewpoints on certain things, but the first order points are essential and make a "theology" Christian. 

First order doctrines are those which are essential and nonnegotiable in the Christian belief mosaic, such as the Trinity, the inspiration of the Scriptures, the atonement, Christ’s resurrection, Christ’s return, and salvation by grace through faith—things without which one cannot be a Christian. Second order doctrines are those such as baptism, church government, or one’s view of end-times theology, and other related matters that are indeed important for faith and the life of the church but are not ultimately obstructive for Christian unity. Third order doctrines are those that are adiaphora or matters of indifference, such as whether Christians can drink alcohol, whether should they homeschool their children, what Bible translations should they use, and the like.

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Mattillo | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 21 2020 6:43 AM | Locked

Paul Caneparo:

I like this quote from Michael Bird. The point being different denominations will take different viewpoints on certain things, but the first order points are essential and make a "theology" Christian. 

First order doctrines are those which are essential and nonnegotiable in the Christian belief mosaic, such as the Trinity, the inspiration of the Scriptures, the atonement, Christ’s resurrection, Christ’s return, and salvation by grace through faith—things without which one cannot be a Christian. Second order doctrines are those such as baptism, church government, or one’s view of end-times theology, and other related matters that are indeed important for faith and the life of the church but are not ultimately obstructive for Christian unity. Third order doctrines are those that are adiaphora or matters of indifference, such as whether Christians can drink alcohol, whether should they homeschool their children, what Bible translations should they use, and the like.

 Is that from a Book, Paul?

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