BUG: Significant missing results on the Lord's Prayer a.k.a. Our Father/Nuestro Padre

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Jun 25 2020 2:12 AM

From the Factbook page I start the suggested Search <Topic Lord’s Prayer> OR "Lord’s Prayer" OR "Lord's Prayer" OR "Pater Noster" which in my library yields 52,143 results in 4,655 resources.

Fortunately, I realize that the suggested Search should be at a minimum <Topic Lord’s Prayer> OR "Lord’s Prayer" OR "Lord's Prayer" OR "Pater Noster" OR "Our Father" which yields  64,666 results in 6,242 resources.

The failure to include both of what Wikipedia includes as  common English names results in a serious under-reporting of results.

Unfortunately, I then realized I have Spanish resources which were not represented in the results. So <Topic Lord’s Prayer> OR "Lord’s Prayer" OR "Lord's Prayer" OR "Pater Noster" OR "Our Father" OR "Nuestro Padre" added a few more result.

BUG: The failure to include "Our Father" in the list is a BUG 
SUGGESTION: The failure to reflect my somewhat bilingual library is a necessary enhancement.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 25 2020 12:01 PM

MJ. Smith:
BUG: The failure to include "Our Father" in the list is a BUG 
SUGGESTION: The failure to reflect my somewhat bilingual library is a necessary enhancement.

+1 Yes Concur. KAIROS Prison Ministry uses question: "Whose Father ?" to prompt everyone to pray "Our Father ..." together.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 25 2020 5:19 PM

MJ. Smith:
From the Factbook page I start the suggested Search <Topic Lord’s Prayer> OR "Lord’s Prayer" OR "Lord's Prayer" OR "Pater Noster" which in my library yields 52,143 results in 4,655 resources.

The repetition of "Lord’s Prayer" inflates the number of results considerably. Try <Topic Lord’s Prayer> OR "Lord's Prayer" OR "Pater Noster", where the number of articles and resources is the same.

MJ. Smith:
BUG: The failure to include "Our Father" in the list is a BUG 

That phrase can be incorporated in any other prayer or topic, so it is not a Bug. You may as well include other phrases from the Lord's prayer, but it will only inflate the results count.

Dave
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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 25 2020 6:40 PM

Dave Hooton:

MJ. Smith:
From the Factbook page I start the suggested Search <Topic Lord’s Prayer> OR "Lord’s Prayer" OR "Lord's Prayer" OR "Pater Noster" which in my library yields 52,143 results in 4,655 resources.

The repetition of "Lord’s Prayer" inflates the number of results considerably. Try <Topic Lord’s Prayer> OR "Lord's Prayer" OR "Pater Noster", where the number of articles and resources is the same.

Right but I was simply using what the Factbook gives me. The repetition should be reported as another BUG.

Dave Hooton:

MJ. Smith:
BUG: The failure to include "Our Father" in the list is a BUG 

That phrase can be incorporated in any other prayer or topic, so it is not a Bug. You may as well include other phrases from the Lord's prayer, but it will only inflate the results count.

"Our Father" is the common name for what you call "the Lord's Prayer" in much of the world. You can check the Wikipedia if you don't believe me. I set "Match case" and capitalized the "O" to minimize the number of results that are false positives. Note when it is used as an incipit rather than a common name, it is increasing the accuracy of the results. What you are saying is equivalent to saying that "Glory Be" can't be the name of a Canticle because it's just a phrase in the canticle and can be used in other contexts.

Examples of "Our Father" as a common name: (Sorry, I didn't realize that the citations were turned off.)

It is therefore likely that the verb epikaleisthe (containing the preposition epi, “upon”) has the sense of “calling upon” God the father in prayer (as in the “Our Father” [Matt 6:9; cf. Luke 11:2; see also Acts 2:21; Rom 10:13) rather than “calling” God “father” (contrast the variant kaleite [𝔓72]), although the two acts are certainly congruent. The metaphor of God as “father” echoes 1:2 and 3, corresponds to the metaphor of the believers as “obedient children” (1:14), and continues further the metaphor of the believing community as the “household” or “family” of God.

Moreover, these sermons do not form a complete whole like the sermons on the Our Father, the Hail Mary, the Creed, and the Ten Commandments. In the thirteenth century, a time when theologians sought to collect, order, and systematize knowledge, wisdom, and insights (which was done in a summa), the occasional academic sermons may, therefore, have been regarded as less interesting, even by Thomas himself. 

Again, how different are the stories in Matthew 2 from those in Luke 2. Consider the divergent form of Jesus’ sayings about the prohibition of divorce (with or without an exception), the number of petitions in the Our Father (seven in the Matthean form, five in the Lucan), the number of beatitudes at the beginning of the sermon on the mount/plain (eight in Matthew, four in Luke), the problematic ending of Mark’s gospel, which may have ended at 16:8, with an account of the discovery of the empty tomb, but with no appearances of the risen Christ. The upshot is that, when one considers the synoptic gospel stories from the viewpoint of accurate, factual recounting, they can scarcely be judged to be prime examples of such writing.

 If this personal quality in the catechism is true of commandments and creed it is truer still of the questions and answers on the Our Father.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 25 2020 10:25 PM

MJ. Smith:
"Our Father" is the common name for what you call "the Lord's Prayer" in much of the world.

Search [match case] "the Our Father" finds 1,898 results in 635 resources in my library.

Logos.com resource titles reflects common name => Understanding “Our Father”: Biblical Reflections on the Lord’s Prayer and => The Lord’s Prayer: A Guide to Praying to Our Father

Search modification: [match case] ((the OR to) BEFORE 1 WORD "Our Father") OR ([field heading, largetext] "Our Father")

Dave Hooton:

That phrase can be incorporated in any other prayer or topic, so it is not a Bug. You may as well include other phrases from the Lord's prayer, but it will only inflate the results count.

Search [match case] "Our Father" includes a number of resources where Our Father is offered in a variety of prayers (while not directly reciting/repeating the Lord's Prayer model): e.g. John MacArthur Sermon Archive (3,127 sermons)

Search for both "Our Father" and the Lord's Prayer: [match case] ((the OR to) BEFORE 1 WORD ("Our Father" OR "Lord's Prayer" OR "LP")) OR ([field heading, largetext] "Our Father", "Lord's Prayer") finds my library has roughly six times more references to the Lord's Prayer than "Our Father". Adding "Pater Noster" to search: [match case] ((the OR to) BEFORE 1 WORD ("Our Father" OR "Lord's Prayer" OR "LP" OR "Pater noster" OR "Pater Noster")) OR ([field heading, largetext] "Our Father", "Lord's Prayer","Pater noster","Pater Noster") adds about 70 more resources to my search results (less than 10 % of "Our Father")

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 25 2020 11:57 PM

My library is fairly balanced 7 Our Fathers for each 9 Lord's Prayer.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 29 2020 9:40 AM

MJ. Smith:
"Our Father" is the common name for what you call "the Lord's Prayer" in much of the world. You can check the Wikipedia if you don't believe me.

Sorry, I should have known...

Dave
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Andrew Batishko (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 29 2020 10:32 AM

"Our Father" has been added as an alternate title for The Lord's Prayer. I don't know exactly how long it'll take for this raw data change to get reflected in the datasets on your system.

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