Bible Research "Search" Question

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Posts 19
Jeremy Morris | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Jul 19 2020 10:55 AM

I want to be careful not to create a theological debate. If this IS that or becomes that, then I trust the admins to do what they do Big Smile

I'm trying to figure out if there is an easy way to verify information about a parable.

For example, I've heard two explanations of the parable of the soils. 

Explanation 1: The person stated that the plots of land were divided into grids. The plows were connected by a rope to a post in the center of the field and the plowing was done in a circular motion outwards, which is why it would miss the corners  and thorns would grow up.

Explanation 2: I think I came across a commentary recently in my Logos software that states that they planted up against the local hills and that was where they encountered the thorns.

The main point of covering this parable does not hinge on the correct answer to either of these statements. However, it would be awesome if I was able to know how to actually find out the answer to this question. Does or would anyone TRULY actually know the answer to this? Or are these just a bunch of smart old guys making educated guesses? lol

Posts 11307
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 19 2020 1:34 PM

Well, if Mark 4:12 is taken at HIS word, you already have your answer. Granted, Matthew makes a slight change in the greek.

But there are interesting explanations. My favorites:

Africa Bible Commentary suggests they threw the seed first (many illustrations of that), and then plowed second. So, you had a toss up on all the places the seed landed.

Then you have the well known cognitive model of Chafe and Givon, combined with the information model of Lambtecht (as applied by Levinson and Runge), which carefully extract exactly how Jesus (an expert in greek) described each landing alternative ... nothing left to chance, here,

I'd say your educated guesses is closest.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 19 2020 5:18 PM

Jeremy Morris:

Explanation 1: The person stated that the plots of land were divided into grids. The plows were connected by a rope to a post in the center of the field and the plowing was done in a circular motion outwards, which is why it would miss the corners  and thorns would grow up.

Explanation 2: I think I came across a commentary recently in my Logos software that states that they planted up against the local hills and that was where they encountered the thorns.

I'd say these were guesses, not educated ones. Some commentators are not sure that sowing preceded plowing, but the majority do.

Dave
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Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 19
Jeremy Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 20 2020 8:58 AM

Thank you both for your quick replies!

Posts 19
Jeremy Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 20 2020 10:04 AM

In doing a little more digging, I will post these verses from Isaiah 28:23-25 that, to me, implies that the plowing happens first and the sowing happens second:

Isaiah 28:23-25 NIV - 2Listen and hear my voice; pay attention and hear what I say. 24 When a farmer plows for planting, does he plow continually? Does he keep on breaking up and working the soil? 25 When he has leveled the surface, does he not sow caraway and scatter cumin? Does he not plant wheat in its place, barley in its plot, and spelt in its field?

Thanks again for the insight and input!

Posts 337
Lonnie Spencer | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 20 2020 10:20 AM

Jeremy Morris:

In doing a little more digging, I will post these verses from Isaiah 28:23-25 that, to me, implies that the plowing happens first and the sowing happens second:

Isaiah 28:23-25 NIV - 2Listen and hear my voice; pay attention and hear what I say. 24 When a farmer plows for planting, does he plow continually? Does he keep on breaking up and working the soil? 25 When he has leveled the surface, does he not sow caraway and scatter cumin? Does he not plant wheat in its place, barley in its plot, and spelt in its field?

Thanks again for the insight and input!

But now you are separated by about 700 years in history. So, would the people in Jesus day do farming like the people back in Isaiah day? I don't know any farmer back in the Middle Ages who was using a John Deere tractor Big Smile

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Jeremy Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 20 2020 10:24 AM

Then you clearly didn't know very many Middle Agers!!! Wink

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 20 2020 10:45 AM

Jeremy Morris:

Then you clearly didn't know very many Middle Agers!!! Wink

First, John Deere market share in the Middle Ages was comparatively low. It was only in the early 1900s, a comfortable Deere tractor seat was developed.

Secondly, (again) if we take Jesus as parably-serious, thorn occurance was throughout the planting, obviating your first two speculations.

Stick out tongue

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 19
Jeremy Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 20 2020 11:55 AM

Actually it wouldn't. The first speculation was that families were given a square plot with a post in the middle, followed by a rope tied from that center post to the plow. As they plowed in an outward circular motion they would naturally miss the corners which would allow the thorns to grow.

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David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 20 2020 12:51 PM

Discoveries you make will be more exciting than answers given by others. - Try opening the Factbook and search for the topic Plow. My library gives 13 articles in 9 different Bible Dictionaries.

also suggest doing a search on "corner NEAR field" - I'm speculating that Ruth gleaning in the edges of the field as God's way to provide for the sojourner or widow may enlighten ancient agriculture practices.

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

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Jeremy Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 20 2020 1:00 PM

I love this David! Thank you =)

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 20 2020 1:57 PM

Jeremy Morris:
Actually it wouldn't.

Just answering in a friendly way .... there was more than one sowing parable ... where did Jesus put the thorns (a lesson for all pastors)?

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 19
Jeremy Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 20 2020 2:21 PM

Sorry, text doesn't always convey the heart behind what's being said =) Wasn't trying to sound definitive, was just trying to re-explain why I thought the circle pattern inside of a squared field would leave corners un-touched, allowing for thorns. You're insight has been great and I started searching out the article you were referencing. =)

Posts 19
Jeremy Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 20 2020 2:22 PM

And please, tell me, where did Jesus put the thorns?

Posts 11307
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 20 2020 3:09 PM

Jeremy Morris:

And please, tell me, where did Jesus put the thorns?

I was being unfair. in Matthew 13, you have the two versions. The second, however, was purposeful, and thus similar but not. Jer 12:13 takes a middle course.

Off-Topic (for Pseudepigraph-ers).

In Mat 13:25, the offending weed is 'darnel', a semitic word, which Jerome carried directly into the Vulgate. But it also shows up in the Apocalypse of Moses 16.3 "the weeds of Adam" vs the"fruit of Paradise". The narritive has the devil interviewing the serpant on his techniques ... then the Devil offered the serpant a job!

Ok, back to thorns.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 19
Jeremy Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 21 2020 12:57 PM

Wow. That's interesting. 

Sidenote: Apocolypse of Moses sounds like a new Netflix mini-series ;)

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