BUG: Links to TDNT are broken (in my library, at least)

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Posts 40
Larry Quinlan | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Oct 16 2020 8:45 PM

It seems that links to TDNT from other resources are broken in my Logos 8.17 library. Is anyone else experiencing this?

Note in the screen grab below that by hovering the cursor (not visible) over the number 168 (after TDNTA) a pop-up appears producing the text from the appropriate linked location in TDNTA. This is the expected behavior. Clicking on the number opens TDNTA to the linked location…as expected.

However, (see the screen grab below) hovering the cursor (not visible) over the number 2:192 (after TDNT) does NOT produce a pop-up displaying text from the TDNT as expected. Instead it simply displays the text from the Strong’s (ESL) location which, in this example, is the originating resource. (I.e., it’s where I already am.) 

Note that the pop-up text and the Strong’s text beneath it are identical, even though the pop-up text claims to be from, in this case, TDNT Volume 2, page 192. Likewise, clicking on the TDNT link does not open TDNT, but rather it “opens” Strong’s (ESL), meaning that it does nothing, in this case, because I’m already in Strong’s. The behavior is the same even if the originating resource is different. For example, if I’m in Swanson’s DBL, clicking on the TDNT number link takes me to Strong’s and NOT to TDNT.

Any advice? Is this my own personal bug, or are others having the same issue?

BTW, my TDNTA license is “native” to my Logos library, whereas my TDNT license migrated over from my WORDsearch library. I wouldn’t think that it should make a difference in the actual Logos resources, though…

Posts 456
Kevin | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 16 2020 10:53 PM

Hi Larry,

You will need to prioritise the TDNT for Greek Strongs numbers, please see Rosie's 3rd post here https://community.logos.com/forums/t/32200.aspx

If you leave the Resource section empty it should apply to all resources, that is how mine is set, and it works for the condition you have.

I cannot test now but it maybe that just prioritising, rather than advanced priorising, the TDNT will now work. https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019683652-Prioritize-Resources

Posts 337
Roy | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 16 2020 11:09 PM

Larry Quinlan:
The behavior is the same even if the originating resource is different. For example, if I’m in Swanson’s DBL, clicking on the TDNT number link takes me to Strong’s and NOT to TDNT.

I do not have the Enhanced Strongs Lexicon but I do have Swanson's.

I found the entry in Swanson's and clicked on the TDNT link you mentioned and was taken to the proper location in TDNT.

What I have found is that an error in a link is usually the fault of the linking source. In this case I would have suspected the ESL. But, since you also had issue with Swanson's it may be how you have your lexicons prioritized?

Posts 337
Roy | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 16 2020 11:12 PM

Looks like Kevin beat me to it while I was trying to write up my reply. (Sorry!)

Anyway I hope you get this issue solved.

Posts 456
Kevin | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 16 2020 11:14 PM

I made an error, you need to prioritse the TDNT for the 'Theological Dictionary of the New Testament' index. I will pick this up later after work if noone else sorts the correct response I have to go now.

I only do this as I have strongs numbers going to a different dictionary and the TDNT has strongs index also. If you dont need strongs to go to a different resource, you could just prioritise the TDNT and not use advanced prioritising.

Posts 40
Larry Quinlan | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 17 2020 7:54 AM

Okay, thanks for the responses! I really appreciate both (and am hoping for more.) Smile So please don't take the following as argumentative. I'm just not seeing this as logical behavior for the application and I'm trying to wrap my brain around it.

I understand the idea of multiple resources that offer similar functionality such that Logos needs to know which one I want (e.g. a link to a Scripture verse...Logos has to know which Bible, right? Makes sense.) But this is clearly not that scenario! In this case I am explicitly indicating what I want (i.e. prioritizing my choice) by selecting the specific link to a single defined resource and location. Taking my example above, for instance, we note that "TDNT 2:192" is not a Strong's number. It is a specific location in a specific resource (i.e. there are no other resources in my library with linked locations that are identified by the address "TDNT 2:192." And certainly not Strong's....) By offering a link to that location I am being offered the utility of being taken immediately to the linked location by virtue of the fact that I click on the link. I've been a Logos user since the Libronix floppy disk days (yeah, I'm old) and this is how everything else has (seemingly) always worked in my resources when the link's target is a singular resource location.

As an analogy, what I'm hearing sounds like this: If you put a specific street address in Google Maps it will take you to an address in your home state (e.g. Ohio) even though you clearly inputted Virginia. The reason being that since you live in Ohio, it sees that as a greater priority than Virginia, (this, even though you explicitly typed in Virginia.) The solution being to prioritize the 50 states in Google Maps so that it recognizes Virginia as a higher priority. Just doesn't make sense to me...

Again, thanks for taking the time to respond! I do appreciate it! I'm open to further enlightenment for my "dull of hearing."Smile

In the meantime I'm going to try and do some prioritizing..

Posts 681
Scott E. Mahle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 17 2020 8:23 AM

Hello, Larry!

You might try what’s shown below to see if that fixes the problem.

Logos Series X Pastor’s Library | Logos 3 Leader’s Library | Logos 4 Portfolio | Logos 5 Platinum | Logos 6 Feature Crossgrade | Logos 7 Essential Upgrade - Large | Logos 8 Methodist & Wesleyan Platinum and Academic Professional

Posts 11194
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 17 2020 9:09 AM

Larry Quinlan:
If you put a specific street address in Google Maps

Garmin, no joke!

I tried out your first example in L7. The hover returns the note from TDNT 2:192 (not Strongs). Even the TDNTA reference simply fails (I don't have TDNTA) instead of interpreting as a Strongs.  And Strongs-wise, I have DBL/MM prioritized.

Edit: ok, I see the issue; it's not Strongs prioritizing (for me). DBL has a TDNT index also. So, TDNT has to be above DBL. too.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 456
Kevin | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 17 2020 9:23 AM

Larry if you go into info (CTRL-SHIFT-i) of your ESL resource it will show you under the section 'Indexes' which indexes it has. I would imagine as well as Strongs in has an index for TDNT, which will be why it is opening when you click TDNT links.
The TDNT is indexed also for Strongs and TDNT, and as such either resource could open either link.

If you wish for one to open above the other, you need to prioritise it. If you don't mind if TDNT opens the Strongs links you click that it has indexed, as well as the TDNT links, then just prioritise the TDNT above the ESL.

If you want the ESL to open Strongs links, and TDNT to just open the TDNT links, then you will need to use advanced prioritising to specify that you just want to prioritise the TDNT for TDNT links. This is as the image in my post above.

Posts 40
Larry Quinlan | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 17 2020 1:21 PM

Kevin:

If you wish for one to open above the other, you need to prioritise it. If you don't mind if TDNT opens the Strongs links you click that it has indexed, as well as the TDNT links, then just prioritise the TDNT above the ESL.

If you want the ESL to open Strongs links, and TDNT to just open the TDNT links, then you will need to use advanced prioritising to specify that you just want to prioritise the TDNT for TDNT links. This is as the image in my post above.

Thanks, Kevin. Both options solved the problem and produced the desired result. I'm going with the second one for now since that seems to be what I want.

Posts 40
Larry Quinlan | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 17 2020 1:43 PM

Denise, thanks for your input!

Okay, so this is totally off topic and if it's too personal then I apologize. Just ignore it...

You have contributed much in the forums so I have often read/seen your posts. Your picture/avatar has always fascinated me and I have often wondered  a) what is the musical instrument pictured and b) what is the culture or nationality of the individual playing it? (I'm 'Mer'can but have lived most of my life overseas. I grew up in the Philippines as an MK and as an adult my wife and I spent 30 years in Indonesia. For the past four years I've been teaching cross-cultural missions at a small Bible college in the US Midwest. Hence, the interest...) I'm guessing it's a Japanese setting...but it could be Middle Eastern. Am I close? Care to enlighten...?

Posts 40
Larry Quinlan | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 17 2020 2:03 PM

Thanks to all who contributed to my request! I still don't get why I needed to prioritize TDNT since I was clicking on a link specific to it, but at least now I know how to resolve the issue.

I get that Strong's numbers are sort of a de facto standard for lexicons; that many lexicons have used them from inception; and even that the ones that do not use Strong's numbers explicitly are often keyed to them internally in Bible software. Hence, Strong's numbers represent a "generic" index for a plethora of Bible resources, even in the physical world. It would make sense that one might click on a Strong's number and want it to open a resource other than Strong's since so many resources use the Strong's numbering system. I did not imagine that TDNT numbers were also thus generic where someone would click on one and want something else to open other than TDNT...but apparently that's the case. And you know what they say about "old dogs"...

So thanks again for all the input. It's not only been helpful, but also educational! Yes

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 17 2020 2:53 PM

Larry Quinlan:
still don't get why I needed to prioritize TDNT since I was clicking on a link specific to it,

Think of having the TDNT and a revised TDNT ... both would be linked via a link "specific to it". Now remember that Logos is a computer program with no knowledge of the contents and uses of a resource. How does it choose between the two TDNT's? It simply chooses the highest priority resource with an index of TDNT values. In your case the choice of the resource by index gave you a different resource ... but in some cases, that is what one wants.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 40
Larry Quinlan | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 17 2020 3:42 PM

MJ. Smith:
How does it choose between the two TDNT's?

Two TDNTs... Hmmm... I only see one available on Logos's web site... In fact, I can't find a revised TDNT anywhere on the internet... Smile

Seriously, though, you make a valid point in terms of what the architecture of Logos has to provide for a given resource of a specific type. That makes sense! Thank you!

Posts 11194
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 17 2020 4:44 PM

Larry Quinlan:
I'm guessing it's a Japanese setting

You're right! If you look at a map of Japan, this particular 'chikusen biwa' is centered in the north part is the large southern island (Kushu).  Philippines is nice ... I spent time there earlier in my career (north of Manilla). I'm happy you're helping other Christians.

Back to your link-problem, I think your Google-map example might be appropriate ... imagine each house in Indiana had the same address as in Ohio ... but no hint of which state. So, yes, you'd have to 'prioritize' ... pick a state.  Sounds crazy?

But it gives you extra power. Maybe you really like DBL's semantic discussion, but your links are TDNT ... just move the DBL above the TDNT (or visa versa)! You're in charge!

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 40
Larry Quinlan | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 17 2020 6:16 PM

Denise:
Maybe you really like DBL's semantic discussion, but your links are TDNT ... just move the DBL above the TDNT (or visa versa)! You're in charge!

Ah! Nice... Your post and M.J. Smith's have been helpful as to know the why. Thanks!

Now I've got to go google 'chikusen biwa' ....

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 17 2020 7:15 PM

Larry Quinlan:
Note in the screen grab below that by hovering the cursor (not visible) over the number 168 (after TDNTA) a pop-up appears producing the text from the appropriate linked location in TDNTA. This is the expected behavior.

Larry Quinlan:
However, (see the screen grab below) hovering the cursor (not visible) over the number 2:192 (after TDNT) does NOT produce a pop-up displaying text from the TDNT as expected. Instead it simply displays the text from the Strong’s (ESL) location which, in this example, is the originating resource

Larry Quinlan:
if I’m in Swanson’s DBL, clicking on the TDNT number link takes me to Strong’s and NOT to TDNT.

Forgive me for being late, but I hope that I can build upon the help already given.

  • The problem arises from lexicons that "steal" special links from the primary lexicon e.g.
    1. Strong's Lexicon (ESL) will steal TDNT links from TDNT (but it won't steal TDNTA links)
    2. TDNT will steal Greek Strong's No. links from Strong's Lexicon!
    3. Other lexicons will steal Greek Strong's No. links from Strong's Lexicon
  • The solution lies in Prioritizing, whilst realizing that all lexicons will take links from Lemmas (Greek/Hebrew words)
  • So we have to associate special links with their primary lexicon by using Advanced Prioritization
    • we have to protect both TDNT links and Greek Strong's No. links
    • lexicons with advanced prioritization have to be listed before lexicons with normal prioritization, else there will be no protection.

Here's what I have:

This ensures that:

  1. ESL is preferred for Greek Strong's numbers (even TDNT can't steal it); and
  2. TDNT is preferred for TDNT numbers

Then you can list your preferences for lemma links:

  • DBL Greek  ----> my preferred lexicon
  • ESL
  • TDNT         -----> it doesn't have all Greek lemmas, so it can't be #1
  • .....  

If you prefer ESL for lemma links...

  • ESL
  • DBL Greek
  • TDNT

Follow that with a list to protect Hebrew Strong's numbers + your preferred Hebrew lexicons for lemmas. If you have Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (TWOT), protect that in a similar way to TDNT.

Dave
===

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Posts 40
Larry Quinlan | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 18 2020 4:53 PM

Dave Hooton:

  • The problem arises from lexicons that "steal" special links from the primary lexicon e.g.
    1. Strong's Lexicon (ESL) will steal TDNT links from TDNT (but it won't steal TDNTA links)
    2. TDNT will steal Greek Strong's No. links from Strong's Lexicon!
    3. Other lexicons will steal Greek Strong's No. links from Strong's Lexicon

Wow! Thanks Dave for a very thorough and clear explanation! My initial issue was "solved" earlier but this whole thread has been very informative for me. I have used prioritizing for years at a basic level dealing with resources like commentaries, bible dictionaries, and even lexicons. Mainly, though, just in terms of preference as to which one shows above another in lists and things. I never got to the level of "Advanced" prioritizing until now. As I said...very informative and helpful! Thanks to all!

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