Tagging for Apostolic Fathers needs to be fleshed out more

[y] I wholeheartedly agree. Recently I had some references to Irenaeus' "against Heresies" which I was investigating and I had to search it out - if the links had been hot....

Good suggestion.

Jack Caviness

The apostolic fathers are very important primary sources, so I request that some attention be placed on improving the tagging for them.

Yes, please.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/147506#Comment_147506

That needs to include the Ante-Nicene fathers too. And perhaps the Post-Nicene fathers. So how would linking to a work from an apostolic father work when you have more than one source for their writing? Would it be based upon prioritization in the library?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/147513#Comment_147513

So how would linking to a work from an apostolic father work when you have more than one source for their writing? Would it be based upon prioritization in the library?

Absolutely! Prioritization is the perfect cure for such a conundrum.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/147513#Comment_147513

That needs to include the Ante-Nicene fathers too. And perhaps the Post-Nicene fathers. So how would linking to a work from an apostolic father work when you have more than one source for their writing? Would it be based upon prioritization in the library?

For the last several years, Logos has used datatypes rather than links to a particular resource. So prioritisation would decide which resource would open. But I agree absolutely with the point, having made it myself a few weeks ago.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/147544#Comment_147544

Ahead of the game as usual Mark. [;)]

George Somsel

I've been researching something that involved Justin Martyr's First Apology and I didn't think I had it, because none of the citations to it that I found were links. I was about to request that Logos add that resource when I thought to search in my Early Church Fathers collection for it, and there it was. So now I'm frustrated that apparently none of the references to this work in my Library are tagged. I tried searching to see if any of them are tagged, but I gave up after a half dozen hits I checked did not turn out to be tagged.

I also spot checked another apostolic father, the Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians, and found no tagged links to that either. I'm not sure how many others are missing tags.

The apostolic fathers are very important primary sources, so I request that some attention be placed on improving the tagging for them.

I think the problem is that tagging for the Ante-Nicene Fathers and for the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (1st & 2nd Series) was never a priority. Part of it seems likely to be due to the relatively poor quality of the resources, i.e. they are badly proofed, etc. They seem to have been among the earlier works released by Logos and were among the earliest purchases I made along with the original language texts of scripture and BAGD and ABD. I rather think that the Church Fathers were texts which Logos acquired from another source in its infancy. It's hard to keep adding a significant number of works and yet bring older works up to spec. Some of the other editions of the Apostolic Fathers issued later such as Holmes are in much better shape.

When I run across a church father or someone I suspect of being such I check to see whether I have it in the older works. That is one of the reasons I began to compile a list of links to them in a note file.

Vincent Setterholm

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/147601#Comment_147601

The original ECF data type (which I don't think is even propagated in Logos 4) was too intimately tied to Schaff's edition to be of much use. It didn't reflect how anyone cited these works - and it was difficult to use because you had to already know what Series and Volume the work you were looking for was in before you could tag a reference or type it into the navigation bar. ECF frequently breaks works into book:chapter where other editions have finer granularity (book:chapter:paragraph/verse, etc.). (Compare Lightfoot's Ignatius to the Romans and ECF's treatment in ANF vol 1, for example - if we'd designed our Apostolic Fathers datatype around ECF, we'd still be unable to properly link those references, so it is a good thing we didn't do that.)

So the challenge for us is that the works in ECF need to be broken down into multiple data-types. For established collections like Apostolic Fathers and New Testament Apocrypha, or collections of related material where the authorship is unknown, we can make one data type per group, for the others, one data type per author makes a lot of sense (easier to tag anyway - if you see a reference to Origen, you use the Origen data type). But if we want to be able to tag references to these works, it really isn't as simple as just taking the ECF Author:Work:Book:Chapter and spinning that into a data type - we need to examine how these works are actually cited in the literature.

The good news is that we are working on this. If you open Ante-Nicene Fathers volume 10, you'll see it is tagged with the Apostolic Fathers data type, the New Testament Apocrypha data type, the Old Testament Pseudepigrapha data type (though it looks like they missed tagging the Apocalypse of Sedrach - or perhaps the existing data type for that didn't match Schaff well, I haven't looked too closely), The Diatessaron data type and the Origen data type.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/147619#Comment_147619

The good news is that we are working on this.

Excellent. But more excellent would be to tell me that Paulist Press's Ancient Christian Writers Series, St. Vladimir's Popular Patristics Series and selected works from Gorgias Press were being tagged to replace Schaff whom I've never quite forgiven for abridging St. Augustian on the Psalms. [Is it unchristian to hold a grudge against a man who died before one's birth? If so, mea culpa. ]

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/147619#Comment_147619

The good news is that we are working on this. If you open Ante-Nicene Fathers volume 10, you'll see it is tagged with the Apostolic Fathers data type, the New Testament Apocrypha data type, the Old Testament Pseudepigrapha data type (though it looks like they missed tagging the Apocalypse of Sedrach - or perhaps the existing data type for that didn't match Schaff well, I haven't looked too closely), The Diatessaron data type and the Origen data type.

Thanks for that explanation, Vincent. I'm glad work is proceeding on this. Does this mean that once the ECF is completely tagged then other works which cite authors who only appear in ECF will automatically have links that work. Or will all those other resouces have to be retrofitted to have tagging that points to the Apostolic Fathers data type in order for them to become links? I'm sure this would be a huge and exhausting manual task, but I hope it is planned somewhere along the line with future resource updates.

Greg

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/147623#Comment_147623

Just out of curiosity, but how does a data type work, exactly? What does it look like?

And I second Paulist Press's Ancient Christian Writers Series and St. Vladimir's Popular Patristics Series. While we're at it, lets toss in New City Press's The Works of St. Augustine: A Translation for the 21st Century!

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/147689#Comment_147689

Just out of curiosity, but how does a data type work, exactly? What does it look like?

They are internal so we never see them (unless we look inside the log files to see what datatypes Logos is loading on startup), but knowing them can be useful in advanced searching. I must say I've never found the need to use them, though.

Mark Barnes made an attempt to list all of the most common data types Logos uses and he explains a bit about what they're for, though there really isn't any documentation available about how you'd search for things using each of these datatypes: http://wiki.logos.com/List_of_Datatypes

I'd say it's best to just trust that Logos knows how to use them to make hyperlinks work from one resource to another and leave it at that.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/147689#Comment_147689

Just out of curiosity, but how does a data type work, exactly? What does it look like?

A datatype functions like an ordinary link, but it doesn't link to a specific resource, but to a specific type of data. The vast majority of 'links' in Logos are datatype links.

If you have the IVP New Bible Dictionary you can see the difference between normal links and datatype links. For some reason it uses ordinary links to link to TDNT, for example. So, if you right-click on a TDNT link in NBD, you'll see it just comes up as 'link', and all I can do with it is open the link in TDNT. But if I do the same in ABD, it comes up as a TDNT datatype, and I can open the datatype in any resource that supports the datatype, search for it, etc.. The screen shot below shows the difference.

As to what it 'looks like', the best guess we can have is by looking at the search syntax for a datatype. Here's the one for the screenshot above:

<TheologicalDictionaryNT = TDNT Volume 4, Page 390–461>.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/147703#Comment_147703

Mark,

Based on your description the search <TheologicalDictionaryNT = TDNT Volume 4, Page 390–461> should be a superset of <TheologicalDictionaryNT = TDNT Volume 4, Page 390>. Correct? If that is the case then there are some definite problems in tagging. See the attached screen shot.

1362.tdnt.TIF

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/147744#Comment_147744

See the attached screen shot.

For the sake of those who can't read TIFF files, the screenshot is below.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/147744#Comment_147744

If that is the case then there are some definite problems in tagging.

It looks like EDNT isn't tagged correctly. Rather than tagging 4:390-461, it only tags 4:390. Perhaps you could report it as a typo.

Incidentally, you can abbreviate TDNT searches to just <tdnt = 4:390-461>. But <tdnt = 4:390-461> is not a superset of <tdnt = 4:390>, because of the equals operator. <tdnt = 4:390-461> will only search for those exact matches. You should search for one of the following:

<tdnt ~ 4:390-461>
<tdnt subset 4:390-461>
<tdnt superset 4:390-461>

There are more details here: http://wiki.logos.com/Detailed_Search_Help#Searching_for_Bible_Verses_and_other_References

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/147747#Comment_147747

Perhaps you could report it as a typo.

Done. TDNTA has the same problem and I reported it also.

So I understand how to search for any reference to a specific work, for example 1 Clement would be <af subset 1 Clement>. How would I search for references to any work by a specific author. For example Justin or Polycarp? I cannot seem to derive it from the wiki page.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/147750#Comment_147750

As Vincent mentioned above, there are a variety of tagging systems currently in use for the Apostolic Fathers. So not all fathers use the <af> datatype. JustinMartyr and Irenaeus have their own datatypes, for example.

But the easiest way is to find what to use is navigate to the resource you're going to be looking for. Let's say The Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians. You can either look in the reference box for the short version (e.g. Poly 1, which translates to <af = Poly 1>), or you can right click somewhere in the text, choose Reference, then "Search Entire Library" for the long version (i.e. <ApostolicFathers = Polycarp to the Philippians 1>).

If you want to search for any link to Polycarp's letter, you'll have to use <af ~ Poly 1-14>. Note that you have to specify the end exactly. Hoping for the best and trying <af ~ Poly 1-999> doesn't work. (Edit: I've noticed you pointed out that <af ~ Poly> also works. I've had mixed experience with not specifying chapter/book numbers. If you get zero results without numbers, try adding them.)

Unfortunately, you can't search for all of Polycarp's writings easily. You have to specify them all in the search, like this: <af ~ Poly 1-14>, <af ~ mPoly 1-22>. This is fine for Polycarp, but rather more of a problem for Augustine.

Doubly unfortunately, not all the Church Fathers are tagged at all. Justin Martyr's Discourse to the Greeks is one of many examples. You'll when you're in an affected document because you'll be unable to choose 'Reference' from the right-click menu, and there'll only be a page number in the navigation box.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/147747#Comment_147747

you can abbreviate TDNT searches to just <tdnt = 4:390-461>

Unfortunately that is not so. That only picks up links with colon : as the separator and misses 4.390-461 and other esoteric links that only the full TDNT data type expression will find. That is unfortunate and only illustrates the confusion that comes from a lack of documentation ie. is this "by design". I would expect a valid abbreviated form Vol.Page as with LN numbers.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/147774#Comment_147774

Unfortunately that is not so.

I beg to differ. I extensively tested long vs. short datatypes when I did the wiki page, and found no differences between them.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/147785#Comment_147785

Unfortunately that is not so.

I beg to differ. I extensively tested long vs. short datatypes when I did the wiki page, and found no differences between them.

This what I found (below) and then realised that the query should be <tdnt ~ 8.1>. Case is important for tdnt but dot or colon separator makes no difference.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/147951#Comment_147951

Unfortunately that is not so.

I beg to differ. I extensively tested long vs. short datatypes when I did the wiki page, and found no differences between them.

But I did!

The difference comes from using uppercase or lowercase for the short name, at least for TDNT. Try <tdnt ~ 8:1> and <tdnt ~ 8.1>. They will give the exact same results as <TheologicalDictionaryNT ~ TDNT Volume 8, Page 1>

With further testing it appears that datatypes are lowercase and case sensitive. If you use <TDNT ~ 8.1> it actually is searching for "TDNT 8.1" and the operator is ignored. <TDNT ~ 8.1>, <TDNT != 8.1>, <TDNT = 8.1>, <TDNT > 8.1>, and <TDNT < 8.1> give the exact same results.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/147956#Comment_147956

The difference comes from using uppercase or lowercase for the short name, at least for TDNT.

Yes. I realised that & changed my post before I saw yours!

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/147956#Comment_147956

With further testing it appears that datatypes are lowercase and case sensitive. If you use <TDNT ~ 8.1> it actually is searching for "TDNT 8.1" and the operator is ignored. <TDNT ~ 8.1>, <TDNT != 8.1>, <TDNT = 8.1>, <TDNT > 8.1>, and <TDNT < 8.1> give the exact same results.

And this underscores why we need documentation on the way that the software is "supposed" to behave. Is this a bug or is it by design? Where is it documented that I have to use the proper case for data types. As a matter of fact, where are the data types documented at all except in the wiki.

Louis St. Hilaire

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/147668#Comment_147668

Does this mean that once the ECF is completely tagged then other works which cite authors who only appear in ECF will automatically have links that work. Or will all those other resouces have to be retrofitted to have tagging that points to the Apostolic Fathers data type in order for them to become links? I'm sure this would be a huge and exhausting manual task, but I hope it is planned somewhere along the line with future resource updates.

We began tagging links to these data types as soon as they were created. The Apostolic Fathers data type has been in use for several years. Most of the other Church Fathers data types (Justin, Irenaeus, Origen, Cyprian, Augustine, Chrysostom, etc.) were created in the last year or so, so newer and recently re-tagged resources should have references to these works linked. Revisiting old resources to add links to newer data types like these is a large part of the update team's job.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/147966#Comment_147966

With further testing it appears that datatypes are lowercase and case sensitive. If you use <TDNT ~ 8.1> it actually is searching for "TDNT 8.1" and the operator is ignored. <TDNT ~ 8.1>, <TDNT != 8.1>, <TDNT = 8.1>, <TDNT > 8.1>, and <TDNT < 8.1> give the exact same results.

And this underscores why we need documentation on the way that the software is "supposed" to behave. Is this a bug or is it by design? Where is it documented that I have to use the proper case for data types. As a matter of fact, where are the data types documented at all except in the wiki.

We need documentation! TWOT and LN datat types are not case sensitive the way that tdnt is. I note that Mark documented all those as lower case whilst GGK, HGK are upper case, yet lower case gives the same results as the full form. I'll create a wiki bug report for TDNT to get something going.

Todd Phillips

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/147980#Comment_147980

With further testing it appears that datatypes are lowercase and case sensitive. If you use <TDNT ~ 8.1> it actually is searching for "TDNT 8.1" and the operator is ignored. <TDNT ~ 8.1>, <TDNT != 8.1>, <TDNT = 8.1>, <TDNT > 8.1>, and <TDNT < 8.1> give the exact same results.

And this underscores why we need documentation on the way that the software is "supposed" to behave. Is this a bug or is it by design? Where is it documented that I have to use the proper case for data types. As a matter of fact, where are the data types documented at all except in the wiki.

We need documentation! TWOT and LN datat types are not case sensitive the way that tdnt is. I note that Mark documented all those as lower case whilst GGK, HGK are upper case, yet lower case gives the same results as the full form. I'll create a wiki bug report for TDNT to get something going.

We need documentation! (adding to the chorus)

Melissa Snyder

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/147956#Comment_147956

With further testing it appears that datatypes are lowercase and case sensitive. If you use <TDNT ~ 8.1> it actually is searching for "TDNT 8.1" and the operator is ignored. <TDNT ~ 8.1>, <TDNT != 8.1>, <TDNT = 8.1>, <TDNT > 8.1>, and <TDNT < 8.1> give the exact same results.

This will be fixed in the next beta...due out soon. )

David Carter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/148281#Comment_148281

This will be fixed in the next beta...due out soon. )

I don't suppose you'd like to define "soon" would you? [:D]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/148382#Comment_148382

This will be fixed in the next beta...due out soon. )

I don't suppose you'd like to define "soon" would you?

It'll probably be Friday when I'm out of town. [8-|]

William

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/148424#Comment_148424

It'll probably be Friday when I'm out of town.

Nope, Today about 45 minutes ago! [:)]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/148424#Comment_148424

It'll probably be Friday when I'm out of town.

Agghhh....

Nope, it was yesterday while I was out of town [|-)]