Number of times Jesus speaks about Heaven and Hell

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Armin | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Jan 6 2021 4:47 AM

I heard and read numerous times that Jesus spoke more about hell than heaven. So I wanted to find out more about this using the Bible Browser.

Using the LEB, I selected "Speakers: Jesus" and "Senses: hell" and get 13 results.

Then I selected "Speakers: Jesus" and "Senses: heaven" and get 74 results.

Am I doing here something wrong?

Armin

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 6 2021 6:17 AM

Armin:
Am I doing here something wrong?

No - not doing anything wrong at all.

A search of the biblical text suggests that in the recorded words of Jesus there are many more references to heaven than to hell.

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xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 6 2021 9:05 AM

One might remember thought that in searches like this.... some translations mix "hades" and "Gehenna" as being the same words and some do not. 

So it might be of interest to do a search on all four:  "Heaven" "Hades" "Hell" and "Gehenna".

xn = Christan  man=man

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Armin | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 6 2021 10:03 AM

Graham Criddle:

Armin:
Am I doing here something wrong?

No - not doing anything wrong at all.

A search of the biblical text suggests that in the recorded words of Jesus there are many more references to heaven than to hell.

What is the reason that the Bible Browser does not show all the references? Does it mean that the tagging by Logos is still incomplete?

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 6 2021 10:24 AM

Armin:
I heard and read numerous times that Jesus spoke more about hell than heaven.

Without regard to hard tagging, you'd have to look at your source(s) as to what they're discussing  ... a good example, losing your soul. 

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 6 2021 12:47 PM

xnman:

One might remember thought that in searches like this.... some translations mix "hades" and "Gehenna" as being the same words and some do not. 

So it might be of interest to do a search on all four:  "Heaven" "Hades" "Hell" and "Gehenna".

Good point - but the use of Sense tagging is designed to help address that issue (among other things). But even with the combined search, the numbers are quite distinct

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 6 2021 12:47 PM

Armin:
What is the reason that the Bible Browser does not show all the references?

Please clarify - what do you think is missing?

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Tom Reynolds | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 6 2021 1:21 PM

Graham Criddle:

Good point - but the use of Sense tagging is designed to help address that issue (among other things). But even with the combined search, the numbers are quite distinct

There is a problem though in that all the "kingdom of heaven" occurrences in Matthew are included which really skews the numbers. If "kingdom of heaven" has the sense 'heaven' then why isn't "Kingdom of God" included when it is considered synonymous by most? I'm not sure how this sense tagging is supposed to actually be working here although it is nice to catch Luke 16:22 which might otherwise escape notice.  However, why John 17:22 is included is beyond me.

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Robert Sussland | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 6 2021 1:23 PM

> A search of the biblical text suggests that in the recorded words of Jesus there are many more references to heaven than to hell.

It's tough to say. For example, when Jesus says  “Every plant that my heavenly Father did not plant will be uprooted." this is not going to show up in the "Hell" sense search, neither will the separation of wheat and chaff, or the casting of weeds into the fire, or the punishment of wicked servants when the master arrives, or being crushed into dust by the millstone, or being outside when the door shut because you had no oil, but all these will show up in the context of "heaven" sense searches as these are parables about the kingdom of heaven. So that alone will create a false asymmetry.

Usually when Jesus talked about what is necessary to enter into the kingdom, it was accompanied by warnings for those who did not enter. This dualism is condensed into the single phrase "repent for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand". It is both a promise and warning, and it's rare for Jesus to make the promise without also issuing the warning, so my reading is that these discussions of heaven and hell are balanced.

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 6 2021 2:42 PM

Tom Reynolds:
f "kingdom of heaven" has the sense 'heaven' then why isn't "Kingdom of God" included when it is considered synonymous by most?

It is tagged separately as kingdom of God - though I agree the meaning of each term is close.

Tom Reynolds:
However, why John 17:22 is included is beyond me.

It is tagged as heaven <> glory which is a subset of heaven

(I'm not arguing the tagging is correct / incorrect - just trying to explain why the results are what they are!)

Posts 1021
Armin | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 8 2021 9:25 AM

Graham Criddle:

Please clarify - what do you think is missing?

I assume that each time Jesus speaks FL tagged this with Jesus being the speaker. And I assume each time there is a reference to hell, FL tagged this as topic/sense hell. And the same for heaven. So if the Bible Browser finds more places where Jesus talks about heaven (rather than hell), then it looks like the tagging for hell is incomplete.

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Armin | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 8 2021 9:27 AM

Robert Sussland:

> A search of the biblical text suggests that in the recorded words of Jesus there are many more references to heaven than to hell.

It's tough to say. For example, when Jesus says  “Every plant that my heavenly Father did not plant will be uprooted." this is not going to show up in the "Hell" sense search, neither will the separation of wheat and chaff, or the casting of weeds into the fire, or the punishment of wicked servants when the master arrives, or being crushed into dust by the millstone, or being outside when the door shut because you had no oil, but all these will show up in the context of "heaven" sense searches as these are parables about the kingdom of heaven. So that alone will create a false asymmetry.

Usually when Jesus talked about what is necessary to enter into the kingdom, it was accompanied by warnings for those who did not enter. This dualism is condensed into the single phrase "repent for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand". It is both a promise and warning, and it's rare for Jesus to make the promise without also issuing the warning, so my reading is that these discussions of heaven and hell are balanced.

I think this might be the reason for the unexpected result.

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 8 2021 9:46 AM

Armin:
I assume that each time Jesus speaks FL tagged this with Jesus being the speaker. And I assume each time there is a reference to hell, FL tagged this as topic/sense hell. And the same for heaven. So if the Bible Browser finds more places where Jesus talks about heaven (rather than hell), then it looks like the tagging for hell is incomplete.

That's helpful - thanks.

But I don't think there is an issue with tagging - but it is important to understand exactly how the Browser operates and how sense searching works!

Take the sense:hell, for example

The Bible Browser shows 13 results when looking for Jesus speaking about this

The corresponding search using the search term {Speaker <Person Jesus>} INTERSECTS <Sense  hell>  returns 16 results in 15 verses

The Bible Browser shows number of verses - not hits - and so there is a difference of two. These are in Matt 18:8 and Luke 16:28

Looking at the relevant word in each case show they are tagged slightly differently

Looking at the Bible Sense Lexicon, shows that these two terms are subordinate to the entry on hell

 

The Bible Browser matches the specific sense and does not include subordinate terms whereas, the search string shown above, does search for subordinate entries as well.

To search for just the term itself, the search term needs to be changed to include an "=" sign - {Speaker <Person Jesus>} INTERSECTS <Sense  =  hell>

And when we do that, the search results match those shown in the Bible Browser

Does this help clarify?

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Armin | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 8 2021 5:20 PM

Wow! Graham, you really are an expert. Many thanks for this detailed explanation. This certainly helps.

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 8 2021 8:34 PM

Pretty much everything I said in this thread applies to this thread as well, and the dozens of similar ones that get posted in the Forum. These FL-produced searches, various datasets, and the like may indeed be pretty well curated. But how do you know? The only real answer to that question is to do the actual searching yourself. If there is some parameter that has slipped the attention and awareness FL's gurus, and a user thinks they've got the full story, they can soldier forward in misplaced confidence, while the overlooked data might well change the scope of their conclusions.

I don't expect people to completely forego these kinds of searches in Logos (although I do, for the most part), but all users should understand that any such curated search should only be a starting point, not an endpoint, to their inquiries.

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Armin | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 9 2021 4:57 AM

Hi David,

You describe the situation very well. My challenge is that getting the search parameters right is very difficult. Without spending lots of time on learning how to do a query (like Graham's suggestion of {Speaker <Person Jesus>} INTERSECTS <Sense = hell>) and using this query language every few days, I just cannot remember it. 

 

 

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xnman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 9 2021 5:14 AM

David Paul:

Pretty much everything I said in this thread applies to this thread as well, and the dozens of similar ones that get posted in the Forum. These FL-produced searches, various datasets, and the like may indeed be pretty well curated. But how do you know? The only real answer to that question is to do the actual searching yourself. If there is some parameter that has slipped the attention and awareness FL's gurus, and a user thinks they've got the full story, they can soldier forward in misplaced confidence, while the overlooked data might well change the scope of their conclusions.

I don't expect people to completely forego these kinds of searches in Logos (although I do, for the most part), but all users should understand that any such curated search should only be a starting point, not an endpoint, to their inquiries.

Amen and Amen.  I'm in the same boat.. be it alone, but that's ok with me.   

If you walk in another man's moccasins then soon you'll be walking like that man, then where is truth?

xn = Christan  man=man

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 9 2021 8:17 AM

Armin:
Without spending lots of time on learning how to do a query (like Graham's suggestion of {Speaker <Person Jesus>} INTERSECTS <Sense = hell>) and using this query language every few days, I just cannot remember it. 

It's well worth remembering the use of search templates - invoke by clicking the three bars icon at the top left of the search panel) that can help with constructing search queries.

It doesn't cover everything but can give some useful pointers

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 9 2021 8:29 AM

David Paul:
I don't expect people to completely forego these kinds of searches in Logos (although I do, for the most part), but all users should understand that any such curated search should only be a starting point, not an endpoint, to their inquiries.

I agree with this David - and believe it to be an important point.

Having said that, I do find the information I can glean from searches making use of tagged information is really valuable as a starting point for study. One time I remember in particular was when studying how one person of the Trinity is spoken of in acting towards another.

Being able to run these types of searches easily and conveniently is something I find really helpful.

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EastTN | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 9 2021 9:56 AM

Armin:

Robert Sussland:

> A search of the biblical text suggests that in the recorded words of Jesus there are many more references to heaven than to hell.

It's tough to say. For example, when Jesus says  “Every plant that my heavenly Father did not plant will be uprooted." this is not going to show up in the "Hell" sense search, neither will the separation of wheat and chaff, or the casting of weeds into the fire, or the punishment of wicked servants when the master arrives, or being crushed into dust by the millstone, or being outside when the door shut because you had no oil, but all these will show up in the context of "heaven" sense searches as these are parables about the kingdom of heaven. So that alone will create a false asymmetry.

Usually when Jesus talked about what is necessary to enter into the kingdom, it was accompanied by warnings for those who did not enter. This dualism is condensed into the single phrase "repent for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand". It is both a promise and warning, and it's rare for Jesus to make the promise without also issuing the warning, so my reading is that these discussions of heaven and hell are balanced.

I think this might be the reason for the unexpected result.

I suspect that's the most important factor.  There's a significant difference between looking at the number of times Jesus used the word "hell" or one of its synonyms, and looking at the number of times he discussed the concept of divine punishment after death.

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