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Posts 352
Mike & Rachel Aubrey | Forum Activity | Posted: Sat, Jul 17 2010 1:41 PM | Locked

The basic structure is nice start, but currently it is limited to binary branching. Would it be possible to add either this:

This would make it significantly easier to work with certain constructions.

But even better would be:

This would allow easy creation of the above structure with three branches and also easily extending the binary one:

Also, it would be helpful to simply have the Category label readily at hand for attaching to the top of a given structure.

And I'm going to assume that at some point in future beta releases, short cuts will be available for bold and italics, as well as for copying and pasting.

Thanks, I'm excited about the potential for all of this.

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 18 2010 4:54 AM | Locked

Mike,

Where is tree diagramming found?

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 18644
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 18 2010 6:15 AM | Locked

I managed to create a more-than-binary looking tree by moving subnodes around and joining them at a common vertex.

By making lines overlap you can make an unwanted line disappear. It's still not as flexible as a general tree diagram, though. So I applaud your request.

Robert Pavich:
Where is tree diagramming found?

It's one of the tools in the Sentence Diagrammer toolbox:

 

Posts 1367
JimTowler | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jul 18 2010 6:23 AM | Locked

Can we get icons for routers, printers, firewalls, servers ...

Oh - wrong tool for the job.

I've been reading many of the posts for SD, and I got to say, I just dont get it yet. It seems a lot of hard work to draw what I can just read. Clearly, I'm still missing why some of yous (plural pronoun) really like this feature.

Posts 352
Mike & Rachel Aubrey | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 19 2010 9:24 AM | Locked

JimT:
I've been reading many of the posts for SD, and I got to say, I just dont get it yet. It seems a lot of hard work to draw what I can just read. Clearly, I'm still missing why some of yous (plural pronoun) really like this feature.

For most linguists, especially those working in formal syntax, tree diagramming is an important tool for studying phrase and clause structure.

Posts 352
Mike & Rachel Aubrey | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 19 2010 9:28 AM | Locked

Rosie Perera:
By making lines overlap you can make an unwanted line disappear. It's still not as flexible as a general tree diagram, though. So I applaud your request.

I had been doing essentially the same thing for years before Logos 4, once you get back a very simple phrase structure, its gets incredibly complicated and time consuming.

Posts 26117
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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 19 2010 11:15 AM | Locked

JimT:
I've been reading many of the posts for SD, and I got to say, I just dont get it yet. It seems a lot of hard work to draw what I can just read. Clearly, I'm still missing why some of yous (plural pronoun) really like this feature.

Personally, I never use the Reed-Kellogg diagrams except to correct incorrect diagrams of others. However, I find that some form of block diagram/arcing is a skill people in small group Bible studies and liturgical readers find useful, especially in Paul's epistles. For my own use, I primarily use tree diagrams - you would find links to two tree diagramming products on my shortcut bar. To be able to do tree diagrams within Logos is a big step forward. Why tree diagrams? Because I can stop developing the structure at whatever level is useful to me - from phrase to morpheme.

Also note that Logos uses tree diagrams in their own resources - they just lie them on their side.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1367
JimTowler | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 19 2010 9:39 PM | Locked

(Thanks to Mike too)

MJ. Smith:
However, I find that some form of block diagram/arcing is a skill people in small group Bible studies and liturgical readers find useful, especially in Paul's epistles.

I'm not sure if this is good place to ask. Maybe I need to read a book or web page or wiki entry etc.

I still don't know what someone can know after looking at, or drawing, an SD that they did not know before. What did they learn/discover/work out?

Is it "factual" or does it depend on assuming very exact words, spelling, usage etc, to support whatever?

How much "fact" can be extracted from the exact morph codes for a given word Luke might have used to quote Jesus, if Jesus migh have spoke it in Aramaic 30 years earlier?

Oh - I know - getting too far off topic ...

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 19 2010 10:33 PM | Locked

JimT:
What did they learn/discover/work out?

Probably the most important thing one learns is the relationship between the phrases and clauses of the sentence. It's somewhat like going through and resolving all the occurrences of deixis - when you read it, you think you know. When you have to actually state it you discover you don't. It also can may more clear the differences between translations when that difference is placing phrase or clauses in different relationships. See last verse or two of Psalm 4 in the New Jerusalem translation. (or was it the original Jerusalem?)  It can also be useful in identifying why words appear/disappear in translation - the words in a diagram that are in positions that are required or implied by the syntactic rules of a language. The "in the hospital" and "in hospital" discussion in the forum is a simple example.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1367
JimTowler | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 20 2010 2:16 AM | Locked

MJ. Smith:
It's somewhat like going through and resolving all the occurrences of deixis

OK - Yet again, since having Logos4, instead of getting answers, I keep learning there are things I know nothing about.

I looked that word up in Logos4. I still have no idea what it means, but its feels like I've looked it up before Smile

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 20 2010 1:25 PM | Locked

Deixis is reference by means of an expression whose interpretation is relative to the (usually) extralinguistic context of the utterance, such as

  • who is speaking
  • the time or place of speaking
  • the gestures of the speaker, or
  • the current location in the discourse.

So something like "I ate over there" doesn't have meaning unless you know MJ is speaking and where MJ is pointing.

It is similar to antecedents. Tom was bitten by his dog. Tom is the antecedent of his. But antecedents point to something earlier in the text, while deixis points to something outside the text. Or, a bit casually, antecedent is used for grammatical analysis and deixis is used for discourse analysis; or as I use them deixis is a bit broader than antecedent.

Of course, now someone with more recent training should jump in and refine my answer.Wink

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 222
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Mike Aubrey | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 20 2010 2:31 PM | Locked

MJ. Smith:

Deixis is reference by means of an expression whose interpretation is relative to the (usually) extralinguistic context of the utterance, such as

  • who is speaking
  • the time or place of speaking
  • the gestures of the speaker, or
  • the current location in the discourse.

So something like "I ate over there" doesn't have meaning unless you know MJ is speaking and where MJ is pointing.

It is similar to antecedents. Tom was bitten by his dog. Tom is the antecedent of his. But antecedents point to something earlier in the text, while deixis points to something outside the text. Or, a bit casually, antecedent is used for grammatical analysis and deixis is used for discourse analysis; or as I use them deixis is a bit broader than antecedent.

Of course, now someone with more recent training should jump in an refine my answer.Wink

I smell SIL's glossary....Wink

Typically, antecedents are understood as being deictic, too -- e.g. demonstrative pronouns are deictic elements, whether they refer to text external referents or internal anaphors. The wikipedia article on deixis is pretty decent (which is generally true for their linguistics articles -- for example the article on Malay: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malay_language).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deixis

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 20 2010 3:48 PM | Locked

Michael Aubrey:
Typically, antecedents are understood as being deictic, too

Good to know 'cause I use "deixis" as if this were true but wasn't sure if I was being sloppy or not.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1367
JimTowler | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 21 2010 5:12 AM | Locked

JimT:

I looked that word up in Logos4. I still have no idea what it means, but its feels like I've looked it up before Smile

What! No-one wanted to pick up on my attempt at a joke about deva vu?

Its a tough room tonight ...

(Thanks MJ for the answers. I really must learn more of these things.)

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