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Brent Little | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 19 2010 6:43 PM

Kindle also pulled a book at the request of the publisher that people had paid for. It just disappeared from their Kindle. This is theft. If you bought a physical book at Barnes and Noble and later the publisher decided there was a breach of contract or some other problem with the book, no court in the country would allow them to go to your house and confiscate the book you bought, so why do they think they can get away with it electronically? Because it's so easy. There needs to be a class action suite over this to set the record and law straight about this legal theft. Electronic, illegal repo men?

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 19 2010 9:08 PM

Brent Little:

Kindle also pulled a book at the request of the publisher that people had paid for. It just disappeared from their Kindle. This is theft. If you bought a physical book at Barnes and Noble and later the publisher decided there was a breach of contract or some other problem with the book, no court in the country would allow them to go to your house and confiscate the book you bought, so why do they think they can get away with it electronically? Because it's so easy. There needs to be a class action suite over this to set the record and law straight about this legal theft. Electronic, illegal repo men?

When this happened last year we discussed a lot of these issues in this thread:

Do we own our books?
http://community.logos.com/forums/t/359.aspx

My take on it now is we are at the mercy of publishers to "do the right thing." Of course they will be the ones deciding what the "right thing" is. I don't think I will invest in a mobile device until the EULA locks in my rights to access the library without paying twice. Been there, done that with Z.

 

 

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Jeremy | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 19 2010 9:19 PM

At the very least, refunds should be given for the books taken off of the iPhone/iPad.

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 19 2010 11:03 PM

Jeremy:

At the very least, refunds should be given for the books taken off of the iPhone/iPad.

For a refund to be given you would need to give up your right to use the resource on your PC / MAC also, that said  I don't disagree that there should be an option for a refund, and if iPhone/iPad was the only medium through which you used this resource then I would not hesitate to recommend giving Logos Customer service a call. Personally though I would think carefully through a refund request particulary if it was purchased on a prepub price.  In the future if you wanted to re-purchase then you would be paying full price.  Its a messy and frustrating situation that the publishers are creating by doing this sort of thing.

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Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 20 2010 1:05 AM

Andrew McKenzie:

Jeremy:

At the very least, refunds should be given for the books taken off of the iPhone/iPad.

For a refund to be given you would need to give up your right to use the resource on your PC / MAC also, that said  I don't disagree that there should be an option for a refund, and if iPhone/iPad was the only medium through which you used this resource then I would not hesitate to recommend giving Logos Customer service a call. Personally though I would think carefully through a refund request particulary if it was purchased on a prepub price.  In the future if you wanted to re-purchase then you would be paying full price.  Its a messy and frustrating situation that the publishers are creating by doing this sort of thing.

...and as addition to that, most people would have BKC as part of their base package. How Logos would do refund on this I have no idea. I think you would have to give up of the whole base package, what I would not recommend at all Smile

Bohuslav

Posts 5505
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 20 2010 2:54 AM

Bohuslav Wojnar:

Andrew McKenzie:

Jeremy:

At the very least, refunds should be given for the books taken off of the iPhone/iPad.

For a refund to be given you would need to give up your right to use the resource on your PC / MAC also, that said  I don't disagree that there should be an option for a refund, and if iPhone/iPad was the only medium through which you used this resource then I would not hesitate to recommend giving Logos Customer service a call. Personally though I would think carefully through a refund request particulary if it was purchased on a prepub price.  In the future if you wanted to re-purchase then you would be paying full price.  Its a messy and frustrating situation that the publishers are creating by doing this sort of thing.

...and as addition to that, most people would have BKC as part of their base package. How Logos would do refund on this I have no idea. I think you would have to give up of the whole base package, what I would not recommend at all Smile

Very good point!

Posts 86
Scott Fillmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 20 2010 5:26 AM

Matthew C Jones:

When this happened last year we discussed a lot of these issues in this thread:

Do we own our books?
http://community.logos.com/forums/t/359.aspx

My take on it now is we are at the mercy of publishers to "do the right thing." Of course they will be the ones deciding what the "right thing" is. I don't think I will invest in a mobile device until the EULA locks in my rights to access the library without paying twice. Been there, done that with Z.

I am going to guess the answer hasn't changed at all... if we buy a book in paper, have it sitting in our house, for all tense and purpose, we own that book, if it is electronic, we do not, especially if that electronic book resides in the cloud like those on the iPhone/iPad apps.

The "right thing to do" would be to allow those customers who have purchased certain expectations (since we can't say purchased certain books) that those expectations remain in tact.  If a publisher "changes their mind" afterwards, then it should be changed for those customer from that point forward.  There are a few reasons I am guessing this doesn't happen.  One, it is so easy to yank from all and appease the publisher, two, to allow some people access to the BKC on iPad and others not is a programming issues companies probably don't want to deal with, and three, the end user has no say or power to do anything about it (other than just not to buy the product).

I see this type of thing getting worse and worse for people who "own" a Kindle, or iBooks, or any electronic form of books until some end user sues a publisher and or provider.  Most people don't care that much about one single book, so I don't see that happening any time soon.  

I for one, do care that much about one single book like the BKC because it was the base commentary for my daily study, on my iPad, and even though I love Logos and all that they have done and continue to do, as was mentioned above, when this happened I requested a refund on my entire base package.  There was nothing else as a consumer that I could do.  

No one would listen, no one had any idea what I was talking about (either publisher or provider), so I could either sit around and complain about it or not buy in anymore (or at least for now).  I am sure I will revisit a base package again some day, but for now, it was the BKC on the iPad that was one of the main reasons I went with a new Logos 4 base package.

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Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 20 2010 8:23 AM

Scott Fillmer:

Matthew C Jones:

When this happened last year we discussed a lot of these issues in this thread:

Do we own our books?
http://community.logos.com/forums/t/359.aspx

My take on it now is we are at the mercy of publishers to "do the right thing." Of course they will be the ones deciding what the "right thing" is. I don't think I will invest in a mobile device until the EULA locks in my rights to access the library without paying twice. Been there, done that with Z.

I am going to guess the answer hasn't changed at all... if we buy a book in paper, have it sitting in our house, for all tense and purpose, we own that book, if it is electronic, we do not, especially if that electronic book resides in the cloud like those on the iPhone/iPad apps.

The "right thing to do" would be to allow those customers who have purchased certain expectations (since we can't say purchased certain books) that those expectations remain in tact.  If a publisher "changes their mind" afterwards, then it should be changed for those customer from that point forward.  There are a few reasons I am guessing this doesn't happen.  One, it is so easy to yank from all and appease the publisher, two, to allow some people access to the BKC on iPad and others not is a programming issues companies probably don't want to deal with, and three, the end user has no say or power to do anything about it (other than just not to buy the product).

I see this type of thing getting worse and worse for people who "own" a Kindle, or iBooks, or any electronic form of books until some end user sues a publisher and or provider.  Most people don't care that much about one single book, so I don't see that happening any time soon.  

I for one, do care that much about one single book like the BKC because it was the base commentary for my daily study, on my iPad, and even though I love Logos and all that they have done and continue to do, as was mentioned above, when this happened I requested a refund on my entire base package.  There was nothing else as a consumer that I could do.  

No one would listen, no one had any idea what I was talking about (either publisher or provider), so I could either sit around and complain about it or not buy in anymore (or at least for now).  I am sure I will revisit a base package again some day, but for now, it was the BKC on the iPad that was one of the main reasons I went with a new Logos 4 base package.

Scott, I am sorry to hear that, however I fully understand. BKC used to be my main one-volume (actually 2 volume) commentary the first 20 years of my ministry.  What if you would ask Logos, instead of having refund for the base package, they would give you a really (I mean really) good discount for the NIBC? Would that change your mind? Just giving Logos some hint... Smile

EDIT: I just want to make clear I understand the situation has not been created by Logos but by the publisher so Logos is not obligated to do anything in that, but still, it would be great to find some solution. That's IMHO.

Bohuslav

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 20 2010 9:12 AM

Jeremy:

At the very least, refunds should be given for the books taken off of the iPhone/iPad.

I hate to disagree with you here but asking Logos for refunds is probably is NOT merited in this case. Remember our Logos 4 purchase did not promise mobile access to all the resources in our licensed library. There are already a significant number of people who based their Logos purchase decisions on the advertised mobile access to their resources. They may have misunderstood, assumed or inferred things not promised or deliverable under the current negotiated contracts with publishers. This is a legal "black hole" that needs to be addressed before it swallows up all the good currently in development.

What can be done by Logos (but probably won't) is to have the lawyers negotiate the contracts with all the publishers to inclusively solidify the mobile access feature along with publication rights. If this does not happen, I predict we will see one publisher after another pulling their titles from mobile access. This could result in a loss of many resources if many publishers want to cling to the last century's paradigm. But Logos has the clout to set industry directions in mobile access. Since it is an undesirable thing to see Christians go to court, it is much better to hammer out these details before it becomes a problem.

And as generous as Logos is in providing free mobile access to our libraries, if a court determines Logos does not have license to do that, the access will stop.

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Posts 86
Scott Fillmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 20 2010 11:07 AM

Bohuslav Wojnar:

Scott, I am sorry to hear that, however I fully understand. BKC used to be my main one-volume (actually 2 volume) commentary the first 20 years of my ministry.  What if you would ask Logos, instead of having refund for the base package, they would give you a really (I mean really) good discount for the NIBC? Would that change your mind? Just giving Logos some hint... Smile

EDIT: I just want to make clear I understand the situation has not been created by Logos but by the publisher so Logos is not obligated to do anything in that, but still, it would be great to find some solution. That's IMHO.

Thanks for the suggestion, that's a great idea, but I doubt Logos would go for that, but still, I can get that commentary on its own without a base package, so that is also an option.  I'm not a big fan of serious study using the NIV but I love Bruce's work, and I can get it for $25, which seems to be available on my iPad as well (for now).

I don't think we can remove Logos 100% from the equation (or at least the people in the publisher correspondence department, although I acknowledge that has to be an enormous job).  If I was to purchase the NIBC as an individual book right now, there is nothing at all that stops them later down the line from doing the exact same thing, even if it is the fault of the publisher.  I can grab that particular volume on Amazon (new) right now for about $3.00, and be fairly sure that unless my house burns down, I will get to keep that volume.  Not so with the electronic NIBC.  

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE access to the electronic versions, I am not a paper book only person, but not actually "owning" the book, per sa, is troubling for many reasons.  Thanks for the suggestion.

Posts 654
Jeremy | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 20 2010 6:05 PM

Matthew C Jones:
Remember our Logos 4 purchase did not promise mobile access to all the resources in our licensed library.

But Logos did promise access to all the resources they promised us we would have access to. You can't go back on that, especially for the people who use Logos primarily on an iPad or iPhone.

Posts 5505
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 20 2010 7:53 PM

Jeremy:

Matthew C Jones:
Remember our Logos 4 purchase did not promise mobile access to all the resources in our licensed library.

But Logos did promise access to all the resources they promised us we would have access to. You can't go back on that, especially for the people who use Logos primarily on an iPad or iPhone.

I can only begin to image the frustation and disappointment for those who primarily use a mobile platform, but I'm not sure Logoshave broken a promise.  While they were allowed to give mobile access to this resource they did.  I don't believe they promised that once a resource was accessible via mobile access it would be accessible for ever and then some.  If any 'promises' have been broken it is by the publisher. Based on our experiences with past technology (paper) these sort of issues are not familar to us and not expected in terms of the way we are treated by publishers but I believe they are going to become part of our experience with new technology (i.e. cloud) because their is ways for 'copyright' owners to do this sort of thing. Logos is just the service provider in the middle of the publisher and the customer.

Every cloud may have it silver lining but it can also rain down upon us unwanted consequences.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 20 2010 8:46 PM

Andrew McKenzie:

 but I believe they are going to become part of our experience with new technology (i.e. cloud) because their is ways for 'copyright' owners to do this sort of thing. Logos is just the service provider in the middle of the publisher and the customer.

Every cloud may have it silver lining but it can also rain down upon us unwanted consequences.

 

If the President of the United States deems necessary, he has the authority to suspend internet access for 4 months in the interest of "national security." That would result in unimaginable consequences. 

Also, an unrelated party (neither Logos nor their publishing partners) could attain a sweeping court judgment that could affect how our resources are marketed and accessed in the online world. That is a real possibility with activist judges who create law as they go along. There is little case law to guide them at this point.

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 21 2010 1:39 AM

Matthew C Jones:

Andrew McKenzie:

 but I believe they are going to become part of our experience with new technology (i.e. cloud) because their is ways for 'copyright' owners to do this sort of thing. Logos is just the service provider in the middle of the publisher and the customer.

Every cloud may have it silver lining but it can also rain down upon us unwanted consequences.

 

If the President of the United States deems necessary, he has the authority to suspend internet access for 4 months in the interest of "national security." That would result in unimaginable consequences. 

Also, an unrelated party (neither Logos nor their publishing partners) could attain a sweeping court judgment that could affect how our resources are marketed and accessed in the online world. That is a real possibility with activist judges who create law as they go along. There is little case law to guide them at this point.

I could not find terms for the iPad application but the terms for the iPhone application are fairly clear.

http://www.logos.com/iphone/terms

 

Posts 86
Scott Fillmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 21 2010 5:06 AM

Andrew McKenzie:

I could not find terms for the iPad application but the terms for the iPhone application are fairly clear.

http://www.logos.com/iphone/terms

as we have seen with Facebook, and countless others, just because the terms are clear doesn't mean that they are right. Just sayin'

Posts 5505
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 21 2010 5:26 AM

Scott Fillmer:

Andrew McKenzie:

I could not find terms for the iPad application but the terms for the iPhone application are fairly clear.

http://www.logos.com/iphone/terms

as we have seen with Facebook, and countless others, just because the terms are clear doesn't mean that they are right. Just sayin'

As a customer I totally agree with you, but at the same time they should not be unexpected, Logos has to have an out if a publisher pulls the plug. Logos gains nothing and would take no pleasure in having to 'activate' such an out.

 

Posts 86
Scott Fillmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 21 2010 5:38 AM

Andrew McKenzie:

As a customer I totally agree with you, but at the same time they should not be unexpected, Logos has to have an out if a publisher pulls the plug. Logos gains nothing and would take no pleasure in having to 'activate' such an out.

Agreed, Logos would not just randomly try to pull resources, that is not their business, they are a provider, not a denier of resources, so to speak.  Perhaps for their part they should have negotiated stronger terms with publishers so they could not pull out even if they wanted to, the "terms" as far as the negative aspects go seem to sit with the customers or end users, not with the publishers.  The publishers should want to get their resources into a mobile platform (but many seem to be following the Beatles example), but if they do, Logos should have some kind of terms, agreement, contract, whatever that states they can not pull the resource once added.  Logic seems to be out the window in some of these cases and all the power seems to reside with the publisher.

Posts 2744
Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 21 2010 6:25 AM

Scott Fillmer:

Andrew McKenzie:

As a customer I totally agree with you, but at the same time they should not be unexpected, Logos has to have an out if a publisher pulls the plug. Logos gains nothing and would take no pleasure in having to 'activate' such an out.

Agreed, Logos would not just randomly try to pull resources, that is not their business, they are a provider, not a denier of resources, so to speak.  Perhaps for their part they should have negotiated stronger terms with publishers so they could not pull out even if they wanted to, the "terms" as far as the negative aspects go seem to sit with the customers or end users, not with the publishers.  The publishers should want to get their resources into a mobile platform (but many seem to be following the Beatles example), but if they do, Logos should have some kind of terms, agreement, contract, whatever that states they can not pull the resource once added.  Logic seems to be out the window in some of these cases and all the power seems to reside with the publisher.

You are right Scott. But what can we do about it? That's a reality of the electronic publishing IMHO.

Bohuslav

Posts 86
Scott Fillmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 21 2010 7:07 AM

Bohuslav Wojnar:

You are right Scott. But what can we do about it? That's a reality of the electronic publishing IMHO.

well that was sort of my point, there isn't much we can do other than speak with our wallets, but ultimately progress into a growing market like digital books will override even that... so... yes, I guess that is just the reality of electronic publishing. :)

Posts 654
Jeremy | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 21 2010 8:01 AM

Andrew McKenzie:

Matthew C Jones:

Andrew McKenzie:

 but I believe they are going to become part of our experience with new technology (i.e. cloud) because their is ways for 'copyright' owners to do this sort of thing. Logos is just the service provider in the middle of the publisher and the customer.

Every cloud may have it silver lining but it can also rain down upon us unwanted consequences.

 

If the President of the United States deems necessary, he has the authority to suspend internet access for 4 months in the interest of "national security." That would result in unimaginable consequences. 

Also, an unrelated party (neither Logos nor their publishing partners) could attain a sweeping court judgment that could affect how our resources are marketed and accessed in the online world. That is a real possibility with activist judges who create law as they go along. There is little case law to guide them at this point.

I could not find terms for the iPad application but the terms for the iPhone application are fairly clear.

http://www.logos.com/iphone/terms

Interesting. If Logos tells us that they can take any books off the iPhone at any time, I think they could be in line for a lawsuit. Still, Logos should refund any books that they have taken off the iPhone. It might be their right to do this, but it is my right to get reimbursed.

 

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