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Posts 86
Scott Fillmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 30 2012 6:20 PM

I contacted Cook about this again about a month ago trying to get an update as to when they might have the BKC out on Kindle, thinking maybe i could at least get it on Kindle. He assured me that it was in the works but because of the amount of indexing and cross referencing that was required for this publication that it was taking a long time to complete. He had no idea as to when it might be completed either.

I know it's a big heavy job, but if it wasn't such a great all around publication a digital copy wouldn't be in such high demand (though it was on Logos for a while so not sure what happened there since they obviously had it in digital form at some point).

Anyway, hoping it's on the way SOON.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 30 2012 7:25 PM

Scott Fillmer:
it was on Logos for a while so not sure what happened there since they obviously had it in digital form at some point

Scott - The Bible Knowledge Commentary is available in Logos HERE. The issue is that the publishers have revoked the privilege for those of us who own the resource to view it on our mobile devices. It is still available in L4 MAC/PC.

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Posts 86
Scott Fillmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 30 2012 7:47 PM

Sorry, yes it has always been available on a Logos base package. This discussion has been about the availability of the BKC on a mobile platform, which it was at one point and is no longer. I mis-spoke or didn't clarify that I was only referring to the mobile platform.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 30 2012 8:51 PM

Scott Fillmer:
his discussion has been about the availability of the BKC on a mobile platform, which it was at one point and is no longer

Presumably the problem is not whether or not the book is available on mobile devices, but whether or not the publisher insists that users pay for the privilege.

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Posts 86
Scott Fillmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 31 2012 4:11 AM

Well I framed my question to them differently this time to try to find out the actual reasons (since we have been talking about this now for almost 2 years), I asked when I would be able to BUY the kindle version (there is actually a correlation to it being available on Kindle and on other mobile platforms) and their answer was issues with indexing and cross referencing. He said they were completely re-publishing the BKC in mobile digital form. Now why they can't let us have-use-buy the version they already have in the mean time???? Someone between Cook and Logos knows that answer.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 31 2012 4:51 AM

Scott Fillmer:
Now why they can't let us have-use-buy the version they already have in the mean time???? Someone between Cook and Logos knows that answer.

As has been demonstrated many times before with the NIV, Logos will not budge over this issue: If you own a resource license, you should be able to view it on any device you own. Logos will NOT make you (or allow you to) purchase a separate license. When the NIV was such a hot topic, there were many users who said: "I don't care. I would pay again to be able to view the NIV on my phone!" The problem with that view is that if one publisher demands it, why wouldn't ALL PUBLISHERS demand it? Currently I have close to 2000 titles out of 2200 available to view on my mobile app. I am not about to start paying to use those books, and Logos agrees.

When the person you spoke to said that they were "completely re-publishing the BKC in mobile digital form," that says to me that they are sticking to their guns and will make you purchase a separate license. If this is the case, it will not be in Logos.

Scott Fillmer:
I asked when I would be able to BUY the kindle version (there is actually a correlation to it being available on Kindle and on other mobile platforms) and their answer was issues with indexing and cross referencing.

I assume that the person you asked was using the term "indexing" differently than we use when we are speaking about "indexing" in Logos. Most kindle books are "plain jane." They are novels and the like. You start at the beginning and you read from cover to cover. Reference books are a different matter. Most people are not going to want to read the Bible Knowledge Commentary from cover to cover. Instead, they are going to want to be able to view a certain passage of scripture. They need a convenient way to navigate through the book. An index is needed. I am referring now to an old fashioned index... the kind you would find in the back of your paper book. In an e-book, an "index" is worthless unless someone creates links - otherwise it is just words on a screen. Likewise, when you are reading an article and you come across a cross reference, you must have a way to link to that portion of text. A book like the Bible Knowledge Commentary would be fairly worthless as a kindle book unless it had extensive work done to it. (Most kindle books have very little done to them - Vyrso books by Logos are the same).

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 31 2012 4:56 AM

Scott Fillmer:

Well I framed my question to them differently this time to try to find out the actual reasons (since we have been talking about this now for almost 2 years), I asked when I would be able to BUY the kindle version (there is actually a correlation to it being available on Kindle and on other mobile platforms) and their answer was issues with indexing and cross referencing. He said they were completely re-publishing the BKC in mobile digital form. Now why they can't let us have-use-buy the version they already have in the mean time???? Someone between Cook and Logos knows that answer.

Well, offering something on a new platform in a new format (Kindle) is something different than just allowing the technically fine usage of an existing licence on an additional platform. I understand (more from reading a lot of forum posts and from watching what happens and what not than from official words by Bob or Dan) that Logos does not intend to have us users pay double or triple just to have access to a second or third platform. It seems they are consistent to this line even if that means a lot of complaining. No one knows if they internally relicence one or more licences, but it seems that we won't see a product offered with "pay $50 for PC and Mac, pay $100 for both plus ipad, $150 for these plus biblia.com".

While I personally don't own a mobile product right now and thus wouldn't mind paying less if offered a non-online licence, I see that Logos takes a stand that I applaud. If they were to give in to one publisher, they need to give in to all of them and lose their argument base for any future negotiations. Publishers that don't allow Logos to bring their product to the mobile devices may hope to sell more of them on Amazon or through a (until lately) mobile-only platform such as Olive Tree. It is upon us to tell them that this is wrong and that we prefer products from publishers who understand that we want to pay only once and that we prefer Logos over competitive formats.

My 2c 

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Posts 76
Greg M | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 31 2012 7:05 AM

alabama24:

As has been demonstrated many times before with the NIV, Logos will not budge over this issue: If you own a resource license, you should be able to view it on any device you own. 

Isn't this a law?  Fair use?  If I'm right we're allowed to circumvent DRM in order to watch DVD's on other devices we own as long as we don't distribute it.  Seems to me that if someone were to challenge these publishers on this issue they'd loose in court.  Under fair use I believe that if I purchase an electronic book for one device I have every right to view it on any other device that I have.

If we could sync books between our computer and iDevices then this would avoid this problem and it would be 100% legal no matter what the publisher said.  Of coarse if Logos did that the publishers might act childish and try to retaliate against them.

I got extremely tired of waiting for Cook to cooperate and cease this obvious money grab.  I've recently spent a bunch of money to upgrade the resources I've got.  One of the requirements was that if I was going to buy it it had to be available for use on my ipad and iphone.  I'm now finding that I can do without the BKC.  I like it but it's no longer a must have for me.

To bad we can't organize a boycott of all titles that the publisher won't allow us to use on our mobile devices.

Oh well, my cyber rant which won't make a difference is over.  That is, until the next time this gets me worked up :)

 

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 31 2012 7:31 AM

Greg M:
Isn't this a law?  Fair use?

No.

Greg M:
If I'm right we're allowed to circumvent DRM in order to watch DVD's on other devices we own as long as we don't distribute it.

I would be very hesitant to agree with this statement. It is not an issue of if you should be able to do so (I would agree with that), but wether or not you could be prosecuted for doing so (I believe you can - if unlikely). 

Greg M:
Seems to me that if someone were to challenge these publishers on this issue they'd loose in court.  Under fair use I believe that if I purchase an electronic book for one device I have every right to view it on any other device that I have.

No. You don't own the book, you own a license. That license tells you what you can and can't do.

Greg M:
I got extremely tired of waiting for Cook to cooperate and cease this obvious money grab.

I agree. Smile

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Posts 569
J. Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 31 2012 7:46 AM

"Isn't this a law?  Fair use?"

IMO...  What we have today is a systematic stripping of consumer rights for the sake of anti-piracy.  (For example,  the latest attempts in congress by lobbyist ... SOPA, I think is the name of one of the two bills)  These issues are still 'young'.  That this, they have not been around long, the digital question is still being 'worked out'.  I'm afraid the consumer's position isn't looking like it will win the day.  Maybe I am wrong.

This is a fundmental issue for the 'cloud' agrument.  If everything comes from the cloud, we no longer really own anything except a VERY limited licence to view the resource... (as long as they keep it 'switched on'.... which this thread shows they can switch it off at will)...

Unless this issue becomes a BIG deal for more people... the consumer... (you and me)... are going to continue to lose our rights to the things we purchase in digital format...  I don't pirate out ANYTHING... I don't use ANYTHING that is pirated... (yet... If the trend continues it will only force more of it by necessity... IMO)

I believe we HAVE to insist on the rejection of TOTAL cloud access for this very reason...  We need to stop being o.k. with settling for a licensed 'right to view as long as they want us to'... and INSIST on having the RIGHT to the ACTUAL resource...

A class-action lawsuit would get the job done (against publishers not Logos)...  However, I think the whole system is too far gone towards anti-consumer for it to win...

Consumer rights should be FIRST... and I think has been in the recent past... but not any more.

Posts 274
Daniel Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 31 2012 7:55 AM

J. Morris:

"Isn't this a law?  Fair use?"

IMO...  What we have today is a systematic stripping of consumer rights for the sake of anti-piracy.  (For example,  the latest attempts in congress by lobbyist ... SOPA, I think is the name of one of the two bills)  These issues are still 'young'.  That this, they have not been around long, the digital question is still being 'worked out'.  I'm afraid the consumer's position isn't looking like it will win the day.  Maybe I am wrong.

This is a fundmental issue for the 'cloud' agrument.  If everything comes from the cloud, we no longer really own anything except a VERY limited licence to view the resource... (as long as they keep it 'switched on'.... which this thread shows they can switch it off at will)...

Unless this issue becomes a BIG deal for more people... the consumer... (you and me)... are going to continue to lose our rights to the things we purchase in digital format...  I don't pirate out ANYTHING... I don't use ANYTHING that is pirated... (yet... If the trend continues it will only force more of it by necessity... IMO)

I believe we HAVE to insist on the rejection of TOTAL cloud access for this very reason...  We need to stop being o.k. with settling for a licensed 'right to view as long as they want us to'... and INSIST on having the RIGHT to the ACTUAL resource...

A class-action lawsuit would get the job done (against publishers not Logos)...  However, I think the whole system is too far gone towards anti-consumer for it to win...

Consumer rights should be FIRST... and I think has been in the recent past... but not any more.

What we have is a trade between pricing/convenience vs. resale value and true ownership. 

To illustrate, the TNTC/TOTC series of commentaries is around $450 new (as I recall) in print.  Digital cost me $150.  I can carry them everywhere (if I download them in the Logos app on my Android device), search, and have as a result lots of convenience.  I saved $300 by buying digital.  But I no longer own the books.  I cannot resell them (well, technically I can, since Logos will transfer the license, but most other digital distributors don't allow this).  But I'm willing to make that trade.  It then depends on the stability of the company from which I have licensed the books (in this case, Logos), and how much I use them vs. the print copies because of that added convenience, to see in the long-term if it was worth the tradeoff.

Another thought: we have far more resources than we will likely ever use.  But, as cheap as they are, it's worth getting a few hundred extras we'll never look at, to get the greatly increased savings on the various base packages.  I agree that individual resources from Logos are still not cheap, and there are a lot of other issues to be worked out.  Some companies, particularly publishers/printing houses are still behind the times in deciding whether they will be reasonable or not.  But others are working to find an acceptable solution. 

But even though individual resources aren't cheap, they do have value.  I don't want Logos books to end up the equivalent of the hundreds of free/self-published books at Amazon - hundreds of typos, poor grammar, and so on.  So there is still a role for a publisher/editor/related service provider.  Their role must continue to change if this whole digital thing will work.  But ultimately it will be what the majority of people do or don't do in terms of purchasing decisions that will influence what happens with digital publishing, along with the occasional public outcry to call out bad laws like SOPA/PIPPA, more than our venting on message boards.

Posts 76
Greg M | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 31 2012 8:04 AM

Actually fair use is part of the copyright law.  Both congress and the courts have made this clear.

It's been ruled that we can record copyright material for personal use.  It's been ruled that we can rip CD's that we've purchased for use on other devices that we own.  There is no difference between a CD and a downloaded MP3 as far as being able to use it on other devices.  There is also no difference between a song, book or movie as far as copyright laws.  A publisher can not limit our use of copyright material that we purchase for personal use on any devices that we own.  The courts have already ruled on this. This is the real reason behind the push for cloud services.  That and their desire to move away from one time purchase to subscription.

Posts 569
J. Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 31 2012 8:22 AM

Greg, thank you for clarifying.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 31 2012 8:47 AM

Greg M:
There is also no difference between a song, book or movie as far as copyright laws.

Not true. The Digital Millennium Copyright Act is very stringent about what it allows when it comes to breaking DRM. 

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 31 2012 8:51 AM

Just to clarify... (I don't want to be misunderstood). I don't agree with the position that we shouldn't be able to move our resources around, but you need to be careful with what you advocate. Breaking DRM is viewed as a crime by corporations, and it seems to be so. I will try to find the link that I posted earlier when I get a chance.

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Posts 76
Greg M | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 31 2012 9:15 AM

alabama24:

Just to clarify... (I don't want to be misunderstood). I don't agree with the position that we shouldn't be able to move our resources around, but you need to be careful with what you advocate. Breaking DRM is viewed as a crime by corporations, and it seems to be so. I will try to find the link that I posted earlier when I get a chance.

Doesn't matter what corporations want to believe.  They haven't challenged any person yet for circumventing DRM for personal use and they probably never will.  Too much to loose with little to gain.  They tried that when VCR's came out and lost big time!  Courts have already said that it won't fly. Wonder why the entertainment industry is hesitant to go after the software makers that produce software that allows ripping of DRM content?  Same reason.  Right now most people run scared from it because of the threats that the entertainment industry has made but if they were to loose in court, well let's just say they don't want to take that chance.

If they thought they had a good chance of winning in court there'd be lawsuits all over the country.  There aren't any because they know from case law that they'd probably loose so it's better to make hollow threats to keep it to a minimum then risk loosing in court.

Remember that I'm talking about purchased copyright material being reproduced for personal use on devices that you own.

 

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 31 2012 9:26 AM

alabama24:

Greg M:
There is also no difference between a song, book or movie as far as copyright laws.

Not true. The Digital Millennium Copyright Act is very stringent about what it allows when it comes to breaking DRM. 

Even if not taking DRM into account, it seems to me that Greg may mix up "fair use" (as a US-only legislation and court ruling practice explained e.g. here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use and with less detail but like a bit more authority here http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html ) with other limits to the copyright, such as given in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_Home_Recording_Act - which law imho leads to the assumption, that in the US there is a difference between a song, a book or a movie.

From a user's perspective, the question of private format conversion of legally owned digital resources is difficult, not specifically enacted in laws or ruled out by judges in many jurisdictions, and a grey area. Maybe fair use or other arguments really entitle some/most users to bring their PDFs etc. into Logos or any other digital device. But: while it is legal for me in my jurisdiction to digitally "tape" music and make a backup copy of music CDs, it is not legal to upload these copies to the internet - which is what Logos would do if they simply put all resources onto biblia.com.  

Thus the question is not fair use or private format conversion, but for the topic of this thread, whether the licence contracts Logos has with the publishers allows distribution to all platforms and the internet or not - and if they are quiet on this, how to exegete these.

But there is a business argument behind this as well: even if it could be argued that any old licence contract that allowed Logos the electronic distribution of resources on PCs may be interpreted as to allow the distribution to the web and any platform regardless of the publisher's consent, I don't think Logos would risk long legal battles with the big players (most of the Christian publishers belong to the word's largest publishing companies with deep pockets) or even being blacklisted by some of the publishers for future resources.   

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 31 2012 9:37 AM

Greg M:

Remember that I'm talking about purchased copyright material being reproduced for personal use on devices that you own.

Greg,

I think you are right in respect with as (1) a good and clear-written law should look like and (2) also as probably many judges in many jurisdictions would rule for reproducing resources for personal use.

But in most jurisdictions such laws do not (yet) exist and judges rule inconsistently. They tend to differentiate between people doing things for personal use (such as listening to a downloaded copyrighted song) and people doing this for a living (such as people uploading such songs and getting reimbursed - remember that many Logos users use it for their "business" as pastors, teachers...) and people setting up technical platforms for the purpose of allowing other people to circumvent copyright (I think of my fellow-German who is no longer "The Fugitive").

You brought up the point of publishers "retaliating" which as a first step simply means for them ceasing to do business with Logos. If a larger number of publishers would do so, Logos were dead in one year.

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Posts 569
J. Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 31 2012 11:15 AM

 

NewbieMick:

But in most jurisdictions such laws do not (yet) exist and judges rule inconsistently. They tend to differentiate between people doing things for personal use (such as listening to a downloaded copyrighted song) and people doing this for a living (such as people uploading such songs and getting reimbursed - remember that many Logos users use it for their "business" as pastors, teachers...)

 

 

concerning use of by pastors

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html

Quotes from above site

Section 107 contains a list of the various purposes for which the reproduction of a particular work may be considered fair, such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Section 107 also sets out four factors to be considered in determining whether or not a particular use is fair:

  •  
    1. The purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes
    2. The nature of the copyrighted work
    3. The amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole
    4. The effect of the use upon the potential market for, or value of, the copyrighted work

End quote

It is obviously going to be perfectly o.k. for a pastor to use and reference material for preaching in a non-profit format.  I would also argue the above cited would clear most uses for the same purpose.

Posts 76
Greg M | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 31 2012 12:24 PM

You guys are getting sidetracked.  This is about individuals using a book that they paid for on a device that they own.  Nothing else.  This falls squarely within what has been clearly defined as fair use here in the US by both congress and the courts going back to VCR, Betamax, tape recorders and CD's.

You can believe what comes from the entertainment industry if you want.

Of coarse none of this gets us the BKC back on our ipads.  I really want it but I agree with the stance Logos is taking.  They are looking out for our best interest.  Cook is only hurting itself and their clients in the long run.  It's not smart to not play nice with a large distributor.

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