Deissman Bible Studies & the Quality and Quantity of resources coming off the presses

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Sep 26 2010 1:05 AM

This is a recently released title I was looking at how it was integrate into my library and the various tools Logos provides and well to say the least the level of integration provided is disappointing. Um there is no indexing of the resource on Greek Words, sure in the back of the book there's a lovely index of Greek words, but this is supposed to be Logos, we are supposed to pay the extra to get the full benefit out of the potential information these sort of resources can bring to our studies.  This resource and the nuggets of thought it has to offer are going to get overlooked unless I go do a basic and stumble upon it in the results.  I haven't gone through it in detail yet to see if all the hyperlinking is there that should be in place.  Now this particular resource I might have got on CP for a very good price, but anyone now buying it is getting it a normal logos price which is 13% higher than paperback from Amazon (Fortunately for Logos there is no kindle edition otherwise that price difference might be much larger). And if I had bought it at normal logos price I might be thinking about 'returning' it for a refund.

With the plethora of titles being released on pre-pub at the moment are these all going to be like this resource with only the very basics of tagging done ? Are they getting pushed out the door without the quality we expect, (we expect it because we are told that's why Logos formatted resources are more expensive), is this quality now being compromised because it simply can't be met anymore due to the sheer voluem of resources being pumped out ?

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 26 2010 1:22 AM

Yes, you're right that chapters two and six would benefit from a Greek index, but I think Logos has difficulty in situations like this when half the work is a monograph, and half a dictionary (there are other examples which I can't bring to mind right now). Of course, it could have been split into two resources, but that would have been problematic too.

So although I agree in part, I think there are extenuating circumstances here. I was very encouraged by Bob's post of last week (which I'm currently unable to find) reassuring us about tagging in new resources, so I think this is an exception due to the technical challenges, more than anything else.

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Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 26 2010 4:51 AM

Mark Barnes:
(which I'm currently unable to find)

Is it this one? http://community.logos.com/forums/p/23422/174569.aspx#174569

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 26 2010 5:41 AM

Kevin Becker:

Yes, thanks. This was the sentence I was looking for:

Bob Pritchett:
With very few exceptions, we intend to create every possible link to existing resources when we publish a new resource.

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 26 2010 2:20 PM

Mark Barnes:

Yes, you're right that chapters two and six would benefit from a Greek index, but I think Logos has difficulty in situations like this when half the work is a monograph, and half a dictionary (there are other examples which I can't bring to mind right now). Of course, it could have been split into two resources, but that would have been problematic too.

So although I agree in part, I think there are extenuating circumstances here. I was very encouraged by Bob's post of last week (which I'm currently unable to find) reassuring us about tagging in new resources, so I think this is an exception due to the technical challenges, more than anything else.

I would much rather this been done.  I really don't see the difficulty of putting in appropriate tagging in the appropriate locations,but it is as difficult as you seem to suggest then Logos has a floor in its book format, then that's what we are paying them premium prices.   At the very least the 'index' in the back of the book could have been turned into dictionary portion, and each entry tagged with the appropriate lemma etc.  Each entry then could have hyperlinked from that index to the appropriate page in the book proper.  The most elegant solution, definitely not, but it increases the integration of the material into our libraries and isn't that a major point of buying Logos format and paying higher prices.

At what  point does this become a slippery spiral, of accepting a little bit less here and a little bit less there.  Logos has setup the expectation of high quality resources due to their pricing model.  I appreciate Bob's comments, and his desire and genuineness in wanting this to happen, and not questioning any of that, but I don't see in those comments  any reason why this should not have been indexed, at the very least in the way I suggested above, or how his statement negates my need as a customer to say, I don't think they got it quite right on this occasion and the natural lead on question of is this the level of integration we are going to get from similar material being pushed out the door over the next 4 to 6 weeks. 

Maybe for this individual title, they set the price barrier on CP to low, maybe it should have been higher, and allotted more time for completion.  To me CP doesn't mean a title should be done to a lesser standard, when it comes to indexing.  If that is the case then, Logos is just doing an E4 when it comes to the standard of these works. There is no statement on the CP page that says I should expect these resources to be of a lower standard than other Logos formatted books.

I not interested in getting into a long debate over the issue with those who feel they must defend Logos at all costs (Mark and Kevin I'm not suggesting you are doing that at this point in the thread), just wanting to clarify my feedback on the issue.

And some may disagree with my feedback, some may not even like the fact I am providing negative feedback at all, but as customers if we simply throw roses all the time, then Logos is not getting a true picture of how they are meeting our needs and meeting the expectations they have created in the first place.

 

 

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 26 2010 2:26 PM

Don't forget to add this to the wiki list: http://wiki.logos.com/Books_Missing_Pagination_and_Other_Indexes

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 4915
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 26 2010 2:56 PM

Mark A. Smith:

Don't forget to add this to the wiki list: http://wiki.logos.com/Books_Missing_Pagination_and_Other_Indexes

 

done.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 26 2010 5:37 PM

Andrew McKenzie:
I would much rather this been done.  I really don't see the difficulty of putting in appropriate tagging in the appropriate locations,but it is as difficult as you seem to suggest then Logos has a floor in its book format, then that's what we are paying them premium prices.

I'm not trying to defend Logos unnecessarily here. I've added several of the books on the missing indexes page, and I too moan when resources don't meet expectations. But as far as I'm aware there's not a single Logos book where the index inside the book acts as a dictionary or anything like it. I therefore don't think it's correct to say that this resource is of a lower standard than other Logos formatted books.

Logos could have added a headword index to chapters 3 and 6, but they probably (I'm guessing) decided it wasn't worth it, because it would not be useful within the program. (To save time and possibly for other reasons, Logos currently only looks up the headwords in resources with the TYPE set to dictionary.)

So I guess what I'm saying is that I partly see your frustration, though I wonder whether your expectations were a little high. But I don't agree with your conclusion that this was done to save money, but rather they produced this book in exactly the way that Logos was (rightly or wrongly) designed.

Posts 4915
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 26 2010 11:02 PM

I had intended to leave my comments where they were whether any care to agree or disagree but the following comment troubles me

Mark Barnes:
But I don't agree with your conclusion that this was done to save money,

I'm really not sure where I did come to that conclusion.  I just re-read my posts again and don't see any mention of them doing anything to save money. I did a CTRL + F and only found the word save twice in the entire thread used by you on both occasions. And a CTRL-F search on money found it used only once by you.   (Of course this is now changed since I am commenting on it).

I am happy for you to disagree, but I don't see any value in you posting a comment like this without any factual basis.  You have slipped into the 'I must defend the faith Logos on this occasion Mark.  And much more than that  you have turn my feedback into something I never said.

I really don't understand why users are not free to express their feedback, likes or dislikes, about this software without having an MVP of some flavour come along and try and walk all over that persons comments. By all means say you are happy with the way things are, that they are meeting your expectations, but why, of why, do we get this continual putting down, pulling apart and discrediting of what other people view as important.  I just don't get it and dont' understand why people feel they have to go there.

People please start respecting others will value and see things differently and learn to express how you see things without the need to have a go at the other person in the process.  Right now the way people are being responded to is an absolute disgrace.


Posts 1134
Juanita | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 27 2010 3:30 AM

Andrew McKenzie:

I really don't understand why users are not free to express their feedback, likes or dislikes, about this software without having an MVP of some flavour come along and try and walk all over that persons comments. By all means say you are happy with the way things are, that they are meeting your expectations, but why, of why, do we get this continual putting down, pulling apart and discrediting of what other people view as important.  I just don't get it and dont' understand why people feel they have to go there.

People please start respecting others will value and see things differently and learn to express how you see things without the need to have a go at the other person in the process.  Right now the way people are being responded to is an absolute disgrace.

Hi Andrew,

I have spent hours trying to come up with the right words because I agree with a lot that you are saying and I fear being pounced on and my words being picked apart by, yes, someone from the MVP group.  It's not that I do not appreciate their help, at times, but I do think they go too far in some of their responses.  One thing I have done is to recognize the difference between posting on the forums and calling Logos.  If I want to be treated as a valued customer and with respect, and courtesy, I call Tech support, Customer Service or Sales.  I receive great treatment to the point of friendy and kind.  However, when I post on the forums I do not expect that level of treatment because we are fellow "users" and MVP's are not Logos employees.  

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 27 2010 4:07 AM

Andrew McKenzie:
I'm really not sure where I did come to that conclusion.

Andrew, I'm not trying to pick a fight, and I'm not even trying to defend Logos. (I'd hoped my post which I linked to demonstrates that I'm not a 'fanboy'.) But I do put a lot of effort in trying to understand how Logos works. Creating tools like my bibliographic report helps with this, as does some work I'm doing now trying to understand why parallel resources is so slow. I'm not trying to justify what Logos does, but I am trying to understand it and then perhaps explain it.

But much more importantly I'm certainly not trying to show a lack of respect, and I wasn't 'having a go'. If I've misrepresented you, then I'm sorry.

The reason I thought you concluded this was done to save money was because of this phrase: "Maybe for this individual title, they set the price barrier on CP to low, maybe it should have been higher, and allotted more time for completion." It seemed to me that you were suggesting that they should have charged more for the title, so they could have spent more time (and therefore money) producing it. I'm still not sure what other interpretation I could give to that statement, but I'm very happy to be corrected.

Andrew McKenzie:
I really don't understand why users are not free to express their feedback, likes or dislikes, about this software without having an MVP of some flavour come along and try and walk all over that persons comments. By all means say you are happy with the way things are, that they are meeting your expectations, but why, of why, do we get this continual putting down, pulling apart and discrediting of what other people view as important.  I just don't get it and dont' understand why people feel they have to go there.

People please start respecting others will value and see things differently and learn to express how you see things without the need to have a go at the other person in the process.  Right now the way people are being responded to is an absolute disgrace.

If I wasn't being fair to you about saving money, then I'm not sure you're being fair to me here. Most of what you're suggesting I said, I did not in fact say. I tried carefully to state agreement where I could find it, and point out the areas where I disagreed and why. Isn't that what forums are for?

Anyway, I don't want to fall out with a fellow-forum member, so I hope you'll accept my apology if I misunderstood your comments. If you want to follow up anything privately, feel free to contact me on Facebook.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 27 2010 4:11 AM

Joan Korte:
If I want to be treated as a valued customer and with respect, and courtesy, I call Tech support, Customer Service or Sales.  I receive great treatment to the point of friendy and kind.  However, when I post on the forums I do not expect that level of treatment because we are fellow "users" and MVP's are not Logos employees.  

As a Christian and pastor I expect that I will always treat others with respect and courtesy, regardless of what capacity I'm speaking in. If you feel I have not done this, please can you contact me privately so I can put it right.

Posts 1134
Juanita | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 27 2010 4:55 AM

Mark Barnes:

Joan Korte:
If I want to be treated as a valued customer and with respect, and courtesy, I call Tech support, Customer Service or Sales.  I receive great treatment to the point of friendy and kind.  However, when I post on the forums I do not expect that level of treatment because we are fellow "users" and MVP's are not Logos employees.  

As a Christian and pastor I expect that I will always treat others with respect and courtesy, regardless of what capacity I'm speaking in. If you feel I have not done this, please can you contact me privately so I can put it right.

Hi Mark,

I am not referring to a particular instance on a thread or to one MVP but I am generalizing and putting my feelings into words.    This is how I feel overall when it comes to calling vs. posting.  If I want to feel as a valued customer, I call-I am dealing with a known quantity.  If I want to be treated as a fellow user, then I post.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 27 2010 5:43 AM

Joan Korte:
I am not referring to a particular instance on a thread or to one MVP but I am generalizing and putting my feelings into words.    This is how I feel overall when it comes to calling vs. posting.  If I want to feel as a valued customer, I call-I am dealing with a known quantity.  If I want to be treated as a fellow user, then I post.

Fair enough. Thanks for the clarification.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 27 2010 11:48 AM

Mark Barnes:
But as far as I'm aware there's not a single Logos book where the index inside the book acts as a dictionary or anything like it.

Just to add that I'm wrong about this. The Africa Bible Commentary works in exactly this way.

Mark Barnes:
(To save time and possibly for other reasons, Logos currently only looks up the headwords in resources with the TYPE set to dictionary.)

I'm wrong about this, too (although I'm 90% sure that this used to be the case). Either in changed in 4.1, or I have a really bad memory.

 

So the bottom line is that the whole thrust of my original reply, that technical limitations were behind Logos' choices on this resource was completely incorrect. Now that the facts are straight (and I'm sorry for blurring them), I agree with your original point. Logos should have indexed those Greek words by headword, as there's no technical reason not to.

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Louis St. Hilaire | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Sep 27 2010 1:39 PM

This appears to simply have been an oversight caused by the mixed nature of the contents of the book.

We'll get it fixed as soon as possible.

Thanks for catching it.

Posts 4915
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 28 2010 3:32 PM

Mark Barnes:
Anyway, I don't want to fall out with a fellow-forum member, so I hope you'll accept my apology if I misunderstood your comments. If you want to follow up anything privately, feel free to contact me on Facebook.

I still don't understand how you came to your conclusion.  Suggesting pricing could have been higher, so that we could have had more functionality in the book does not add up to someone suggesting Logos is trying to save money.  This is a clear statement of respect that functionality takes time and has associated resource costs and was suggesting that I'd of been happy to pay the extra if that was the issue for not having the functionality.  Logos is not deriving any benefit by selling it for less and not including the functionalilty.

Your apology is accepted, but that does not negate the need for MVP's as a said a few weeks ago to be very careful about how they respond to Logos customers on these forums, after all the customer is not paying you, but Logos.   You have the potential to drive people away from these forums and away from Logos as a company, and you are driving people to not give their honest feedback on these forums.

I for one from now on will not be providing any feedback on these forums from this point forward. Instead I will simply be trying to assist fellow users in making Logos work for them.   As much as I appreciate the efforts of all MVP'S including you Mark in helping customers, time again I see MVP's talking down legitimate customer feedback, feedback as paying customers of Logos they should be free to express on these forums.  In these instances you are doing yourselves, Logos and the customer a dis-service.

I don't want any MVP to curb their enthusiasm, that I believe is a big part of being an MVP, but you need learn to manage now you display that enthusiasm for the software and your personal philosophy on how it should work, when you are responding to someone who has a completely different view, need, desire, want etc of things than the way you see them.  You might loathe L3, others will love the way it did some things that L4 doesn't.  Does that make either party or their feedback wrong - no, not in any way.  It merely reflects our differences as human beings.  If a customer has a misconception about how the software works, then by all means explain it, but dont go in all guns blazing, you are dealing with a real person, in a non-personal means of communcation and so can't determine and respond immediately if they mis-understand  or mis-take you enthusiasm for what you really intended to say.

In the end It should be up to Logos to decide how they make use of and how they respond to their customer's feedback and not for MVP's to act as act as an intermediary that determines the worth of a customer's feedback.

Posts 4915
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 28 2010 3:33 PM

Louis St. Hilaire:

This appears to simply have been an oversight caused by the mixed nature of the contents of the book.

We'll get it fixed as soon as possible.

Thanks for catching it.

Thanks for taking this feedback into consideration.  Much appreciated.

 

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Forum MVP
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 28 2010 4:36 PM

.:
I for one from now on will not be providing any feedback on these forums from this point forward.

I'm genuinely sorry about that. Nothing at all of what I said was intended to have that effect.

.:
As much as I appreciate the efforts of all MVP'S including you Mark in helping customers, time again I see MVP's talking down legitimate customer feedback, feedback as paying customers of Logos they should be free to express on these forums.

I want to 100% affirm yours (and anyone else's) freedom to express their views on Logos on these forums. I have never (and will never) tell people they ought not do so.

.:
…not for MVP's to act as act as an intermediary that determines the worth of a customer's feedback.

Again, I had absolutely no intention of giving that impression. I had presumed that when users publish their feedback on a public forum, rather than sending it direct to Logos, that they want other users to respond to that feedback - either by agreeing or disagreeing. I'm sorry if that presumption was wrong in this case.

.:
I still don't understand how you came to your conclusion. 

And I'm afraid I still don't understand how you have concluded I came in with all guns blazing. (I'm not blaming you for coming to that conclusion, I just don't understand what gave that impression, because that was not my intention at all.)

 

Anyway, the purpose of this post is simply to say that I have valued your contributions to this forum, and I will be sad if I have in anyway diminished your enthusiasm for posting. I don't want you to feel at all hindered in expressing your views within the forum guidelines. I will therefore be much more careful in giving negative feedback to suggestions made by you or others in the future, and hope that you will continue to provide both positive and negative feedback here so that together we can all help make Logos an even better tool for studying the Bible.

Posts 4915
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 28 2010 5:46 PM

Mark Barnes:
I had presumed that when users publish their feedback on a public forum, rather than sending it direct to Logos, that they want other users to respond to that feedback - either by agreeing or disagreeing. I'm sorry if that presumption was wrong in this case.

Logos has a guideline to not discuss theological isssues on these forums. Not because they believe in discussing theology but because this is not the purpose of these forums and debate does have the potential to lead to division.   There is a general principle here,  that I believe is good for the health of these forums, and how we might respond to the wide range of users who might post here.

I personally wouldn't make the assumption that just because someone posts feedback they necessarily want other people to tell them if,whether or not other people see their feedback as valid. They post here because they want an outlet to express their thoughts. Not all users here are from an academic/seminary/college background , many might but not all, and so we have to respect this forum is open to all kinds of people and so not everyone will have a mind set of posting to have their feedback critiqued.  Until a user clearly states something that suggests they are wanting critique of their thoughts, then I would suggest responses to need to be carefully thought out and worded, instead of being immediately turned into a free for all validation of the users feedback.

Within the confines of  a beta forum, particularly a private beta forum, I think there is room for that sort of discussion because users of a beta generally come together with that purpose in mind, of discussing what does and doesn't work, both in terms of what is actaully in the software and what could be in the software. But we still need to be careful in an open public beta forum, because we do encourage users to take up a beta , because if offers the functionality they are currently require.  In do this  we are inviting people who don't have intention of debating the software, but just want the function, to inadvertently become part of that process of debate whether they realise it or not.

In a way, all of this has been pointless because Logos has decided to accept the feedback and will look at this particular case, even though it didn't get your full tick of validation.( They could have gone the opposite way and not responded, and that is their choice to make.)  But if it makes, even one person, think a bit more about how we respond to one another, then maybe there was some point in this.

I have said more than I want, or even thought I would need to say on this thread when it first started, but have done so because I want this to be a community where all Logos users feel comfortable.  At the moment I'm not feeling that way, and if I who am prepared to call a spade, a spade, when I see one, feels that, then there must be others who don't express it and just go away.

 

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