Discounts on Zondervan's Logos editions for Pradis users

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Posts 184
LogosEmployee
Dan Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 10 2009 3:59 PM

Bill Stonebraker:
What will it cost me to stop using it?

That's what this thread is all about, a way to give feedback on what the discount should be for Pradis users. When Zondervan makes the announcement we will let you know.

Posts 439
Mark Stevens | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 10 2009 4:03 PM

Dan, while you're here, could you please take a moment to answer my forum question concerning customer service for international custormers?

 

Thanks

Posts 439
Mark Stevens | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 10 2009 4:05 PM

Wow, you're good! I posted this before I got a message saying you had responded! My apologies

Posts 3
Jason W. Snyder | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 11 2009 3:54 PM

Kevin A. Purcell:

You have missed my point.  Once you do the work, which you are going to do anyway, it does not cost you anymore to give it away to one who will unlikely ever pay for it. But it does gain you a happy, paying customer who might not otherwise become one.  My point is that once the work is done, the only cost to Logos to give it away is ...

1. Administrative costs of the actual transaction

2. Lost revenue from a sale

I feel like paying the first one is fair.  But since I am not likely going to buy it again #2 is moot.

However, when you factor in all the potential sales of future books that you could gain from a new  former Pradis user who would not have become a logos user if he was not given the books, logos will gain far more by giving it to those customers for the cost of the #1.

Simple logic and math seems to say it is in Logos' best interest to do what is also in the customer's best interests in this case.

 

From your comments, I doubt that you've ever owned a business. Logos is a business and as such it must create revenue to sustain itself, pay taxes, pay its employees and sustain inflation. For you to suggest that Logos should give you a free product is in many ways ludicrous. If you don't want to pay for the titles again, you should just continue using your outdated Pradis software. It seems very assuming and brash to threaten to only be a loyal Logos user if they give you free stuff.

Simple logic does not work in this situation as you suggest. I think Logos could sustain itself by charging smaller "upgrade" fee, but they are going to have to pay all the people to man (or woman) the phones, etc.

On a side note Kevin, this blog is published to for the world to see and your comments on the blog have been less than cordial. I suggest that you scale back a little bit and seek to display Christ in all your interactions whether personal or technological.

 

From One Christian Brother to Another,

JWS

Posts 569
J. Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 11 2009 4:17 PM

MarkStevens:

Dan, could you or someone else please tell me why people in Australia cannot purchase the NIV or TNIV? I would LOVE to use it for sermon prep as I preach from the TNIV but according to CS, the decision is entirely Zondervan's call. I own the NIV and TNIV on Pradis and it drives me nuts that I can't use it in Logos...

WORDS CANNOT EXPRESS MY FRUSTRATION WITH THIS! Super Angry But I know it isn't Logos' call Smile

Many, thanks

This would be the reason why I'm not an NIV "fan"  (my 2 cents)

Posts 439
Mark Stevens | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 11 2009 4:34 PM

It is why I am frustrated with Zondervan not the NIV/TNIV. I like the TNIV and it is what our church uses as Pew Bibles and Sunday Readings. I honestly don't know why I can purchase the Bibles from my local bookseller but not from Logos! If I can buy a TNIV from Amazon and have it shipped, why can't I do the same with the digital version through Logos?

 

Posts 8967
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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 11 2009 4:46 PM

Jeremiah Daniel Morris:
Dan, could you or someone else please tell me why people in Australia cannot purchase the NIV

 

Because they do not read posts by Matthew C Jones. I keep telling you guys, on eBay there is a UK seller that has the NIV in Logos format. He ships worldwide. I know because I bought one from him. And so did another forum reader.

It doesn't do much good to ask questions and not listen to the answers.

Bottom line: Zondervan does not license the American version of the NIV for sale outside of the Americas. Probably for the same motivation they charge $2000 for their titles in Libronix. (Also, probably the motivation of the Lockman Foundation to pull their new Japanese translation off the market . They had a dispute with the missionary translators over who is going to control it.)

But if nobody is going to pay for it, no publishing will ever get done. This includes all those Logos users selling "duplicate" titles after getting substantial discounts in upgrade packages.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 439
Mark Stevens | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 11 2009 4:55 PM

Matthew C Jones:
It doesn't do much good to ask questions and not listen to the answers.

 

Easy tiger! Settle down! Wink

 

That doesn't suit my needs. I read what you wrote and the truth is they do license it for sale overseas as part of the packages. Furthermore, it is licensed for sale overseas because I can go to my local Christian bookstore and buy an NIV or TNIV. I have both on Pradis (I bought them from the chuck out bin) but I owuld like to use them in Logos, especially the comparision. The NIV is of less interest to me personally but I would liek to comapre the NIV and TNIV at some point to see where they made translation changes.

I expect to pay for the, heck I am happy to pay for them, but they can't be sold to me. Just because I have them on Pradis I dont expect them, for free and I object to your suggestion that I do!

Posts 71
Colin Thornby | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 11 2009 4:59 PM

I suspect part of the problem is that licensing on the NIV is complex outside of the US. For example, in Australia I know that other publishers have some rights, too. This probably makes it more tricky, and most people like to avoid solutions to tricky problems! Just human nature. It is also, probably, an economy of scale thing.

Posts 8967
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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 11 2009 5:09 PM

MarkStevens:
Easy tiger! Settle down! Wink

 

My growling isn't  towards you Mark. Sorry it seemed that way.

I am also a bit dated on my comments about overseas licensing of the NIV. They DO have the "Anglicised" version (The same one I bought in Logos format.) In the 1990s they were very persnickety about it.  I am glad somebody actually publishes good stuff. It costs a fortune to get it to market. It is a gamble. I am just testy this week over ungrateful Logos users running to eBay (& here on the forums)  selling "duplicate" titles they got credit for in upgrades and laughing at how they are so smart at making money. 

I'm gonna go have a quiet time now away from the computer. Hope you understand my frustration I don't watch bullies kick puppies either.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 439
Mark Stevens | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 11 2009 5:16 PM

Matthew C Jones:
I am just testy this week over ungrateful Logos users running to eBay (& here on the forums)  selling "duplicate" titles they got credit for in upgrades and laughing at how they are so smart at making money

Hmm, yes I did read some of those posts. Not sure what I think...

 

Matthew C Jones:
In the 1990s they were very persnickety about it

 

Huh? Are you referring to the first release of the gender nuetral version?

 

If you read this, enjoy your break.Smile

Posts 39
John A. Taylor | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 11 2009 5:30 PM

I'm just glad that the majority of my Bible software investments over the years have been in Logos software.

I have a small investment in some Pradis titles, which I lost after a crash, only to find out that I can't even download them anymore.

I'm more than willing to eat the loss as a lesson learned, and continue with a company, Logos, that has exemplified the best over the years.

John A. Taylor - L5 Portfolio+++ = A Great Library!

"A life in His love and fellowship will make prayer to Him the natural expression of our soul's life." ~ Andrew Murray

Posts 60
Richard Crampton | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2009 5:53 AM

I just received an email from Zondervan advertising their new OT Backgrounds Commentary set.  So I looked to see what the prepub price was for it in Logos format.  I discovered that I could buy it in print for almost $100 less, $249 verses $157.  This does not make any sense at all.  But of course it's Zondervan, so it doesn't have to make sense;(  As many have lamented, Zondervan's prepub prices on many resources which Pradis owners already have are often more than double what they originally paid!  

 

 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2009 6:49 AM

Richard Crampton:
I just received an email from Zondervan advertising their new OT Backgrounds Commentary set.

 

I got the same email Richard. Now if Zondervan would offer that same 60% crossgrade discount to those of us who bought Pradis, they might fall back in favor . Just don't hold your breath waiting on parity.  (That's a Mac vs PC joke Geeked . That's also a snyd remark akin to "some are more equal than others".)

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2009 7:57 AM

Richard Crampton:

I just received an email from Zondervan advertising their new OT Backgrounds Commentary set.  So I looked to see what the prepub price was for it in Logos format.  I discovered that I could buy it in print for almost $100 less, $249 verses $157.  This does not make any sense at all.  But of course it's Zondervan, so it doesn't have to make sense;(  As many have lamented, Zondervan's prepub prices on many resources which Pradis owners already have are often more than double what they originally paid!  

Oh Zondervan, Oh Zondervan why punish Pradis users for investing in your product? Not to mention there are many resources contained in the Pradis format which will not be in the Logos format. Those with the Pradis software are the losers in all of this. So much in the Pradis format are not making their way into Logos & yet Zondervan product in Logos comes with a hefty price tag. Zondervan, Zondervan, oh Zondervan can you be trusted to do the right thing by your Pradis customers? Would you take into consideration the missing resource from Pradis not in Logos when you decided what best you can do for Pradis owners.

Richard point well made.

Ted

 

Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ

Posts 2724
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2009 8:04 AM

Zondervan, if you are listening. Please do your most loyal customers right.

I have now purchased two versions of the Expositors Bible Commentary in Pradis. I really want this in Logos and will be happy to pay a small fee just to cover the cost of the transaction and bandwidth to make the leap. But I can guarantee that if Zondervan does not do right by us, I will be sure to not make the same mistake again with any Zondervan resources in the future.

Posts 2774
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2009 9:19 AM

I never bought Pradis, so the following is only based on the comments I read here from users.

I think some of the authors who use Zondervan to publish should take this into consideration as well. A lot of big names use Zondervan, but they should also be aware of the kind of company they are partnering with to publish.  If we ha some leadership from Christian authors, that would influence Zondervan's bottom line and that is probably the ONLY thing that would make an impression on them.

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2009 10:36 AM

Joe Miller:

I never bought Pradis, so the following is only based on the comments I read here from users.

I think some of the authors who use Zondervan to publish should take this into consideration as well. A lot of big names use Zondervan, but they should also be aware of the kind of company they are partnering with to publish.  If we ha some leadership from Christian authors, that would influence Zondervan's bottom line and that is probably the ONLY thing that would make an impression on them.

Bulls eyes Joe - sport on, well on target!

Ted

 

Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ

Posts 2724
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2009 11:06 AM

Jason W. Snyder:
From your comments, I doubt that you've ever owned a business. Logos is a business and as such it must create revenue to sustain itself, pay taxes, pay its employees and sustain inflation. For you to suggest that Logos should give you a free product is in many ways ludicrous. If you don't want to pay for the titles again, you should just continue using your outdated Pradis software. It seems very assuming and brash to threaten to only be a loyal Logos user if they give you free stuff.

You clearly do not understand my point. I know it sounds counterintuitive, but this is one of those times that giving it away will in the long run produce more revenue for both Logos and Zondervan.  When I say give it away, i am happy to pay a fee to cover the simple costs of distribution and transactions. In another place on this forum Bob or Dan (cannot remember which) said that their basic cost is about 20 bucks for a simple transaction. I don't have a problem with that. Bandwidth to download is likely to be cents or maybe a few dollars.  To round up let's say $29.95 for each previous product purchased.  That is "giving it away" based on the idea that they are not charging for the product but the cost of letting me have it.  it is the 21st century version fo "shipping and handling". I'm happy to pay that and maybe even a little mark up.

But there is no cost whatsoever to Logos or Zondervan to give this away to a customer who never will buy it.  The reason is they are not losing a sale. And they are not losing money for a hard product. It's just bits/bytes.  It costs them the same price to produce it once as it does to produce it a million times. The cost is in the creating the files. Once the bits/bytes are created they will never again cost Logos and Zondervan anything to make. There will be a tiny cost of storing them on a hard drive. But in today's technology that is a fraction of a penny.

However, the potential benefit to Zondervan and Logos of giving it away to former Zondervan/Pradis customers is that they will bring along customers who either never used Logos and might see its value and want to not only get the Expositor's Bible Commentary but also the Gold package to complement it.  Or a customer like me who uses both will say, "Maybe when I call or click to get my free upgrade I'll add in xxx title at the same time."

This is the new digital economy and owning a none digital economy business would not at all help anyone understand it better.  I do have a digital economy "business".  I produce content for readers and I give it all away. The reason is that I know there is a benefit to me in doing so. The benefit is not in dollars and cents at this time, but might be.  The magazine I write for gets it too. They did away with the subscription model and now give it away for ad revenue.

I just am hoping that Zondervan and Logos will get this too and in case they do not I am not threatening anything. I am merely explaining this philosophy and posting it here where I believe the decision makers will see it and hopefully agree.  I have not made any threats as you claim. I am simply stating what is the truth as a loyal Zondervan and Logos customer.  If Zondervan is not loyal to its customers in turn, we will not be loyal to them in the future.

Posts 274
Daniel Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 12 2009 12:07 PM

Kevin A. Purcell:

But there is no cost whatsoever to Logos or Zondervan to give this away to a customer who never will buy it.  The reason is they are not losing a sale. And they are not losing money for a hard product. It's just bits/bytes.  It costs them the same price to produce it once as it does to produce it a million times. The cost is in the creating the files. Once the bits/bytes are created they will never again cost Logos and Zondervan anything to make. There will be a tiny cost of storing them on a hard drive. But in today's technology that is a fraction of a penny.

This would be accurate if Logos never updated the files (metadata, corrections, etc), or converted them to a new format (Logos 3 to Logos 4, for example).  But they do.  Inherent within the Logos purchase is the ability to pay once for those files/resources/books and keep using them through revisions of the software and computer upgrades and so on.  If Logos can't make enough from each purchase (or the collective purchases) to pay for production and updates and improvements, as well as related support costs, they will go out of business, which I assume none of us wants.

I would be very excited if there was a $50 or even 50% discount on the upgrade.  But asking to get a $130 package for $30 doesn't seem reasonable to me.  Again, Logos and particularly Zondervan will have to work that out.

I paid $70 for EBC in Pradis (got it on an overstock/clearance sale).  I want it in Logos.  But Zondervan never promised me it would work indefinitely.  Only that it would work on Windows ____ (whatever was listed on the box).  They never promised me free updates.  Logos does.  I'm excited they do.  But we can't expect Zondervan to operate the same way as Logos.  They are licensing the technology, not promising to duplicate the model, as far as I know.  So from this point, Zondervan products will in one sense be Logos resources, and we can hopefully anticipate the same availability, updates to books, and so on.  But we shouldn't demand that it be retroactive.  I've had Pradis for two years.  That's worth something to have access to those books for that time period.

Kevin A. Purcell:

This is the new digital economy and owning a none digital economy business would not at all help anyone understand it better.  I do have a digital economy "business".  I produce content for readers and I give it all away. The reason is that I know there is a benefit to me in doing so. The benefit is not in dollars and cents at this time, but might be.  The magazine I write for gets it too. They did away with the subscription model and now give it away for ad revenue.

What works for you as a single individual or a smaller company may not correlate to a much larger operation, as far as giving away content or ad revenues are concerned.  Do you really want Logos to go to an ad-support program?  Banner ads in the app?  Or something else?

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