Logos, is it too late to get a refund?

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 7 2010 6:34 AM

Stephen Julian:
I appreciate Bob's quick reply but don't see how this is an issue of "just a matter of getting used to the way Logos does it."

It is a matter of perspective even if it is the Logos way. One could also wonder why the software did not let you add to an existing file that you have been working with; and Logos4 actually does! I find this very convenient because I set up my study first, whether it be creating/opening a note or a clipping and then add whatever is relevant without interruption.

I'm not setting aside your concern but just proposing another perspective. I'm not an avid Note taker but I do use clippings.

Dave
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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 7 2010 6:34 AM

Terry Poperszky:

Stephen Julian:
If you agree, please say so.  Thanks!

How about if we don't agree Wink Stephen, I think this may have more to do with study methodology more than anything else, one of the first things that I do when studying a section is to set up my note file for that section, personally I seldom create separate note files after that. With that said, my way is NOT more right than yours, is simply falls in line with the work flow that Logos is designed for. I can see a definitely see a case for your request, ideally the software should not break the "flow" of our studies.

Observations:

  1. Opening notes "this way" or "that way" is already in this thread shown to be a matter of taste, not right or wrong--regardless of our feelings.  Kind of like choosing church carpet color, pews vs. chairs, etc.  Just because we are ticked off by it doesn't mean we should unload or demand our way. 
  2. that said, I have personally wished for the right click option, especially for clippings.  Sometimes I realize I need to make a more narrowly themed clipping file than I realized--or I came across something that doesn't fit my current study, but I want to save for future study--and rightclicking a new file would be awesome.  I have less need for that on the fly regarding note files.  Yeah, I get annoyed when I can't do that . . . but I'll get over it.  Just like my family not loading the dishwasher correctly.  AngryStick out tongue

 

 

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

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Brad Fry | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 7 2010 6:36 AM

I agree!

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Simon | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 7 2010 9:20 AM

Stephen Julian:

UI issue #2 regarding creating new notes - I've posted on this before and each time don't understand why so few see this as an issue.

I am reading a Bible passage and want to create a note to record my thoughts on that passage for future reference.  It seems obvious that I would highlight the reference or some portion of the passage, right-click and select "Create New Note."  Instead I must go through a convoluted process to open a new note and then go back to the passage, etc., as described in Matt's original post.

Is no one else bothered by this?

I appreciate Bob's quick reply but don't see how this is an issue of "just a matter of getting used to the way Logos does it."  This is a significant annoyance.

If you agree, please say so.  Thanks!

Yep, couldn't agree more.

 

I thought the whole point of context menus was to bring up a list of all possible options applicable in the current context.

I.e. if a section of text has been highlighted and I bring up a context menu then surely one of the applicable options is my desire to add/attach a note to this highlighted text.

 

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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 7 2010 11:07 AM

SimonM:
I.e. if a section of text has been highlighted and I bring up a context menu then surely one of the applicable options is my desire to add/attach a note to this highlighted text.

I'm not sure I get the problem; if you right-click you can add a note to the highlighted text.

It seemed like the most likely scenario would be that you'd want to add a note to the note file you were working on, and that creating a new note file would be a very unusual behavior. Keeping "new note file" off the right click menu reduces clutter, mkaing the "98% case" more efficient, and avoids the undesirable (though not always avoidable) behavior of having the same operation appear in two different places in the UI.

If we're wrong -- and people are constantly creating new note files -- then maybe we need to revisit this. But our research indicated a lifetime use of 6 note files or less per user, making right-click seem like a bad place to host something you'll need just six times, compared to the number of right-click menu popups likely to be done overall.

 

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Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 7 2010 11:18 AM

Bob Pritchett:
If we're wrong -- and people are constantly creating new note files -- then maybe we need to revisit this. But our research indicated a lifetime use of 6 note files or less per user, making right-click seem like a bad place to host something you'll need just six times, compared to the number of right-click menu popups likely to be done overall.

I don't know about others, but I've been using note files differently since Logos 4.  I create a new note file every time I start a study (along with a clippings file and a passage list usually).  Then I can add links to all the associated user docs (notes, clippings, passages) in my favorites window under a common topic.

In addition to that, having many small note files is better for me because:

  • I've been using note files for web clippings (since the clippings doc doesn't let me include non-logos content)
  • performance seems to degrade with large note files
  • it allows me to toggle note display on or off for specific topics instead of having all my notes on or off all the time
  • I can more easily delete notes I don't want anymore

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Rick Harrell | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 7 2010 11:31 AM

Bob Pritchett:
If we're wrong -- and people are constantly creating new note files -- then maybe we need to revisit this. But our research indicated a lifetime use of 6 note files or less per user, making right-click seem like a bad place to host something you'll need just six times, compared to the number of right-click menu popups likely to be done overall.

I have been adding at least two new note files a week, and often four or five.

In spite of the frustrations of notes in Logos 4 (the display lag when typing is the worst at the moment) note files are my base for sermon and lesson prep. I do all my research in notes, then transfer the info to Word for my final product.

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Pastor Michael Huffman | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 7 2010 11:50 AM

Matt-

I am not going to be much help because, by God's grace, I have not experienced any of the problems that you have listed; and I am extremely grateful to the Lord that I have not. I have used many, many Bible software programs and none can hold a light to Logos. Of course, I am a Logos Ambassador, so call me a little biased but I thought that before I was an Ambassador, which is why I became one.

Just one thought, though, about the "hanging:" up on the notes: This is just a maybe: try turning your "use internet" to "no", it may be that it is hanging up because it is synching with the Logos server. A wonderful feature because you never have to worry about your books, notes, etc. being lost; however, a feature that I keep off uless I am updating because it makes my computer run a lilttle sluggish when it is on. I dont know if that will fix your problem, but it is a thought. God Bless!!

 

Michael

Pastor Michael Huffman, Th.A Th.B Th.M

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spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 7 2010 12:25 PM

As far as the notes issue....

My concern with notes is not so much in recording the note, but in recalling the note at the correct time. I started another thread on this a couple of days ago (http://community.logos.com/forums/p/23964/178560.aspx)

It seems to me that there could be a better system then the "put a note in a file" system. One of the benefits of Logos is that it breaks down the barrier that exists with paper books and creates an environment that almost makes all the resources 1 huge resource. I'd rather have the feel of one huge note file for that one huge resource that excels at recalling data.

I recognize that its probably too late in L4 development for a concept like this. Maybe the paradigm shifts Logos asked us to make with L4 was too much as is and this would be too much of a jump. My system works well in my head but Bob has to try to get into many other heads.

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Leigh Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 7 2010 12:59 PM

I have just started creating notes for different topics (atonement, incarnation, forgiveness, etc.).  Since I don't necessarily know what topic of interest  I may find in the course of my reading it would be very helpful to be able to create a new note file from the right-click menu.  I also have a separate note file for each book of the Bible and have not always used the note recently for the book I'm reading so being able to get to more than 1 or 2 recent note files from the right-click menu would also be handy

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tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 7 2010 1:19 PM

Bob Pritchett:
But our research indicated a lifetime use of 6 note files or less per user,

Bob, 

A couple of people have already responded about the number of note files and the rate they are creating them, but I would like for you to look at what is under the numbers that you are using.

As you have read over the years, the one spot that people complain the most about Logos software is the note taking function.  The question that I would like you to pounder is "Why are people only creating 6 note files over the their lifetime?  Is is that they only need six?  Or is it because the note function in L3 and in L4 is sooooo bad that your customers have to use another software program like Evernote or OneNote?"

 

FYI(1)...I personally use four or five note files for each pericope.  Each note file holds different data for the same pericope.

FYI(2)...The note function in L4 is one of three reasons why I  still use L3.

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Stephen Julian | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 7 2010 2:10 PM

So glad to see some interest generated on this topic of note-taking.

Bob - thanks, as always, for responding. I don't take your interest or involvement in these discussions lightly.  Many CEOs never take the time to do this.

Four thoughts:

1)      Tom Collinge expresses my thoughts (a bit more strongly than I would have worded them) about the number of notes people have.  My guess is that there were so few notes because the note-taking function still needed to evolve and so we used other products.  Now that Logos is evolving, I’d love to keep my Bible study notes inside of Logos rather than having to use two programs every time I study.

2)      I do not create notes for large topical areas of study, leave them open, and then add to them as I study.  I tend to have thoughts that I want to record as I read a particular scripture passage and rather than seeing if my thought fits a pre-existing topic I create a new note linked to the passage where I am currently reading.  So while I appreciate the ability of Logos 4 to handle larger note files, that really isn’t an issue for me.

3)      Because Logos does a great job of searching (I know about and agree with the concerns with topical searching, but that aside) I don’t have to worry about the number of notes I am creating.  I can find my content easily at any time.  My behavior has been influenced by my use of OneNote over the past few years.  I used to have to organize all of my files and electronic materials carefully, but as searching in many programs has improved, I have grown used to recording thoughts without being compulsive about organization, knowing that I can find the material easily at any time (that is now true of e-mail in Outlook, notes in OneNote, user-generated material in Logos 4).

4)      I don’t need fly-out menus with all of my notes listed – I’d love it, but can live without it.  I mainly want a right-click option to add a new note.

We make virtues of our preferences – I know that and so am not asking others to use Logos as I do, not at all.  I’m simply asking those who do use it as I do to speak up so that right-click creation of new notes is added to the program.

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 7 2010 2:35 PM

Terry Poperszky:

ideally the software should not break the "flow" of our studies.

Yes

And i cringe so badly when I here Bob say

Bob Pritchett:
it's just a matter of getting used to way Logos does it.

Particularly when it is followed in the next breath with:

Bob Pritchett:
I don't think these are "right or wrong" issues

If there is no right or wrong way, then why not implement these things that not major redesigns of the software, but simply giving someone the option to do something from the right click menu instead of the convoluted current methodology that has been decided for all users on their behalf  - apparently by general concensus

Bob Pritchett:
We changed the way notes on right-click worked because of a general consensus in user interface design that "cascading fly-out menus" are a bad idea. (They take too much precision mouse movement, are too easy to "fall off of", etc.)

... but who is exactly is "General Consensus" ?

 

 

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SteveF | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 7 2010 2:38 PM

tom collinge:
I would like for you to look at what is under the numbers that you are using.

Tom's reasons echo mine.

"Notes" was the very first thing I abandoned in Libronix 3 and I see no point in Logos 4's version to hurry back.

As "someone" once said:

There are Lies; da--ed lies; and then there are statistics.

Oh well.

 

Regards, SteveF

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Bob Schlessman | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 7 2010 3:14 PM

Stephen Julian:

UI issue #2 regarding creating new notes - I've posted on this before and each time don't understand why so few see this as an issue.

I am reading a Bible passage and want to create a note to record my thoughts on that passage for future reference.  It seems obvious that I would highlight the reference or some portion of the passage, right-click and select "Create New Note."  Instead I must go through a convoluted process to open a new note and then go back to the passage, etc., as described in Matt's original post.

Is no one else bothered by this?

I appreciate Bob's quick reply but don't see how this is an issue of "just a matter of getting used to the way Logos does it."  This is a significant annoyance.

If you agree, please say so.  Thanks!

YES!!!

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 7 2010 3:14 PM

Bob Pritchett:
But our research indicated a lifetime use of 6 note files or less per user,

Research also apparently found that Printing wasn't needed...

What statistics don't tell us is the why of their existence... why a lifetime use of 6 note files or less per user.... is it because they were simply not using Note files in Libronix 1-3 because the functionality provided did not meet their needs and so they turned to other options ?  Or is there some other reason ?

 

 

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Jerry M | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 7 2010 3:35 PM

Perhaps if a right click gave the option "create a new note file" rather than just something like "add a new note" it would be a reminder of what they are really doing to their file system.  

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 7 2010 4:51 PM

For me, the way Note Files work for opening, closing and creating is perfectly fine. To me, the far bigger issues are:

1) ability to attach a note to multiple passages (there is a work around but ...)

2) the ability to have tables inside of notes

3) the ability to search My Content without searching the entire library.

The last of these is the biggest time waster in my work flow.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 7 2010 4:53 PM

MJ. Smith:

For me, the way Note Files work for opening, closing and creating is perfectly fine. To me, the far bigger issues are:

1) ability to attach a note to multiple passages (there is a work around but ...)

2) the ability to have tables inside of notes

3) the ability to search My Content without searching the entire library.

The last of these is the biggest time waster in my work flow.

YesYesYes

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 7 2010 7:03 PM

MJ. Smith:
3) the ability to search My Content without searching the entire library.

I'm tempted to say what else could be done without searching the entire library...

Dave
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