Notes Files Suggestion/PLEA

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LaRosa Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 8 2009 11:30 AM

I use note files in a variety of ways...

  1. My primary use is taking notes @ church (yes, I take a laptop to church & run Logos). My pastor and others use PowerPoint slideshows. Keeping them in a notes file allows me to easily link to & jump to other Scriptures as I'm taking notes; plus it keeps me from flipping back & forth between applications (i.e. Logos & Word).
  2. I also use notes file for taking my own notes as I study and prepare lessons for both church & my website. I'll use the notes file to create my own outline as I'm studying (again to keep from using multiple apps) and it allows me to more easily link to material I find that I'd like to use later on. I've got an outline right now for 1 Thessalonians 1 that is roughly the equivalent of a 10-12 page MS Word doc.
  3. Like most others, I also use it to jot notes & questions to myself, creating my own study Bible of sorts within the software. I also enjoy being able to tag them and put the note icon in my Bible so that I can remember that I made a note on a particular passage.

Those are the primary ways that I use the notes files, and they are definitely an invaluable resource to me while I'm studying. I'm also open to finding new & better ways to use the notes files that others may already be doing :-)

lj.

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Jim Dean | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 8 2009 2:44 PM

JimMcDaniel:
I have to admit this does seem a bit like surveying a group of people with a broken leg about how they walk. In other words the way we use Logos notes is a function of its capabilities, or lack thereof besides our personal styles.

The one thing that Logos does for me is to link a huge library to what I'm interested in at the moment either directly or indirectly (through searches) which is a big advantage over having physical books. The one thing it doesn't do with the same quality and usefulness as the rest of the program is to link my research findings on a topic or verse and make that research useful to me (printing, exporting, reorganizing, linking, searching).

I mentioned in another post that I use notes for a repository of research and personal observations. I then copy useful stuff to an external program when I'm actually going to present anything since the final form can be some combination of file, published document, slide show, or speech so no one set of presentation tools will ever be adequate. I would like the ability to select nodes in my notes tree and transfer all the material in that node and any indented nodes in one operation.

I'll give a hearty "second" to all of Jim's comments, in particular the first paragraph.  Sad

I've tried on MANY occasions, over the years, to get Notes to "work" for me ... but I kept getting frustrated.  It wasn't that they would not fit "my style" - it was that I could not IMAGINE a "style" that they could be used for that would not involve multiple brick-wall encounters. Tongue Tied

I think that the key to this is to get FOCUSED on what "the task" really is.  Then each suggestion can be evaluated against that paradigm.

LOGICALLY, there seems to me to be a clear dividing line, which Jim expressed and I'd like to further define.  That dividing line has stage(s) we might call "research" and "correlation" on one side, and stages that we might call "presentation" and "application" on the opposite side.  If we ask L to create something that works on both sides of the line, I think we'll just end up running in circles, and neither side will be adequately handled.  That's where we are now ... let's not just get a fancier version of confused. 

So, presuming that we agree conceptually on the distinctions between the two sides of the line, which one should be the prime focus of L's "new nifty notes" (NNN) ??  I think that's also a foregone conclusion ... the purpose of LIbronix is to help us study and learn ... it's NOT intended primarily as a visual-presentation platform (though it can be used that way, with a sufficiently-interested audience and a high-resolution projector).

THEREFORE, my strongest recommedation would be that "features" which would exists primarily to make things "look pretty" should be 86'd.  I'd far prefer to see L apply its talents and time to aiding me in my research and correlation.

OK, so where does THAT take us?  Well ...

RESEARCH is of course the process of utilizing L's tools and books to gather information into "interlinked baskets" that we will go back to later and sort through.  Of course, even though one often undertakes an initial study in one massive thrust, it is often the case that we will later go back to that same topic and add additional information &/or categories to it.  On the other hand, sometimes we have no such initial organized approach, but later on we decide to "collect" disparate notes and highlights together into a grouping that currently holds interest to us.

CORRELATION is the process of organizing the information into some coherent categories and sequence.  The same collection of bits of data can be correlated in many different ways ... thus, the results of our Research might yield, over the years, many different useful vignettes from different perspectives, with different teaching-goals.  So, we need to be able to have a way to leave the research in place, organized in whatever manner makes sense for the process of researching, and somehow, without disturbing that "orderly mess", have a way to reorganize bits of it into whatever pattern that fits our current task.

This need to reorganize-without-disturbing-the-original is the heart of the problem, in my view.  The simplest solution is to just make an extra copy of the entire research-collectiton, then hack and slash away the stuff that's not relevant to the current task, and finally organize the remainder into something that's amenable to porting to a DIFFERENT application, for "pretti-fying" (such as PowerPoint).

That copy+hack-n-slash method does work - it's how I usually do my own preparation - but it has two major flaws:   first, it often involves a LOT of material, especially if it includes extensive quotations from scripture or other sources.  This makes it just plain awkward to do.  The second flaw is:  if you want to add to or modify the research data at a later time, there is no "automatic" updating of the correlated results ... in fact, it's nearly impossible to figure out what research stuff is the "new' stuff, since completion of the original correlation task.

So, my strongest to-the-point request regarding NNN is that intense effort be made to allow for quick and easy and targetted links to be available at all levels, between all objects.  Of course, L is all about links!  However, those links don't "port" with a click-n-dragged selection when we paste it somewhere else.  That is, right-clicking on that copied entity does not bring up a menu similar to Libronix's.  Nor does double-clicking or hovering over it provide us with any additional information.  If we want to take THAT info (the linked stuff) with us to our Research-collection area, and later to our Correlation-worktable, we need to copy and paste it ALL!  Ooof.  Reminds me of moving out of a house.  Ya gotta take it ALL.

Additionally, we need a new layer of links that currently don't exist in Libronix ... ones that we build.  That is, we need to be able to link our notes ... our reseach data ... into customize chains of whatever sort we can imagine.  Then, we need links to link the links in different patterns, as we go through the Correlation process.  Huh.  I know, this sounds like gobbledegook, and sort of makes my head spin trying to write it out ... but I believe that this process is what we ACTUALLY DO, somewhat unconsciously and haphazardly, as we study and prepare, under the Spirit's direction.

I'm not too concerned, personally, about links to non-Libronix stuff such as external URL's.  Sure, it would be nice, but there is so much already IN Libronix, I believe that we must make research within that universe the top priority.  If for no other reason ... the multiple thousands of (wisely) invested dollars (many of us) have in this resource.  (I try not to think about this too much).   Besides ... incorporating outside links may well cause the "tightness" of whatever L might otherwise build to be mangled ... I'd rather be told to "add it myself, manually" re that other stuff, than to find that there's extra work, or additional limitations, in using the Libronix resources as a result of including the other stuff.

OK - that's as thorough an analysis that I can provide of the TASK's necessities.  It "shore wud bee grate" if a thousand replies came in with the words  - "Yeah - what he said" ... but I seriously doubt that will happen.  However, maybe we could try to discuss this for a while WITHOUT getting off into the "mechanics", because as Jim said before, everyone has their own style.

What we need are the tools to interlink all this info in ways that no one has yet imagined.  IMNSHO, it would be REALLY helpful if the L team could make a "list" of the KINDS of "linking" which are reasonably possible, and which kinds are a real time-consuming hair-pullilng bear of a job that we should try to avoid asking for.

Then, after those research+correlation "framework" capabilities are defined, I think it would be useful to start discussing the grab-bag of formatting options that would be useful.  Actually, THAT part of it is the SIMPLE part (I speak as a four-decades programmer at this point).  As someone already pointed out, a 12-year-old can write a word processor.  However it takes a Pritchett to write keylinking!

Summary:  I've tried to apply structured systems-analysis methods to this problem.  I hope that I've explained it well enough.  Thanks for being patient with the wordiness!

 

=============
Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ...
Jim Dean

Posts 664
Jim | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 8 2009 2:49 PM

Say Bob, I was thinking about your question regarding the hierarchy / indentation of notes and got to wondering which would make Logos run faster, one huge note file filled with links to Bible verses, or a bunch of smaller files. I have a file for each Bible book. I usually have them all enabled because I'll forget which ones are or aren't when I'm focused on studying. Is there any large difference in overall speed?

Have a great day,
jmac

Posts 87
David Emme | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 8 2009 4:48 PM

Bob Pritchett:
I'd also like to better understand what you want to do with notes.

 

When using notes, I would like to see a 300 person orchestra and 175 person choir to come alive, singing any song or hymn I want.

Just a joke, I do not use note files at all. I just Copy and Paste, use MS Word when ever writing an article or blog, preaching notes.

Of course, in my experiance a year ago preaching off of my computer using Logos since I had given my bible to another Pastor who only had one bible for his church.

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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 8 2009 11:39 PM

JimMcDaniel:
Is there any large difference in overall speed?

In 3.x, all the note files are loaded unless you "turn one off". So speed should be similar in both configurations, though you can improve speed by splitting into multiple files and turning one file off. But that's more awkward.

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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 8 2009 11:49 PM

JimDean:
Summary:  I've tried to apply structured systems-analysis methods to this problem.  I hope that I've explained it well enough.  Thanks for being patient with the wordiness!

I appreciate all the feedback (and want more!). It's looking to me, though, like everyone has a different methodology, which is why it's difficult to build something everyone's happy with. I think that's why there are dozens of outlining tools, and why some people write sermons in Word, some in WordPerfect, some in OneNote, some in PowerPoint, and some on yellow legal pads!

Moving forward, I know we'll continue to emphasize "build my own study Bible" type notes, and we are definitely working to improve the little editing annoyances. We're also working to offer new ways of storing your thoughts, organizing research from the books, etc. My hope is that out of multiple tools every user can build a workflow that works for them.

I think we'll also see changes in our workflows simply in response to the technology. Improved searching may, for example, make linking a quote to it's source become less important. If you can search for the text of the quote in a keystroke or two, and find it in a second or two, why would you clutter your note / Word doc / slide with something like libronixdls:jump|res=LLS.1.0.1.43&ref=LLSAO:345:10340 ?

 Please keep the ideas and feedback coming!

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 9 2009 12:45 AM

Bob Pritchett:

I think we'll also see changes in our workflows simply in response to the technology. Improved searching may, for example, make linking a quote to it's source become less important. If you can search for the text of the quote in a keystroke or two, and find it in a second or two, why would you clutter your note / Word doc / slide with something like libronixdls:jump|res=LLS.1.0.1.43&ref=LLSAO:345:10340 ?

I write my notes so that I can copy them and paste into Word with only a little polishing.  I don't wish to need to stop my workflow in order to search for a passage no matter how fast the search may be.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 9 2009 4:58 AM

Bob Pritchett:
I think we'll also see changes in our workflows simply in response to the technology. Improved searching may, for example, make linking a quote to it's source become less important. If you can search for the text of the quote in a keystroke or two, and find it in a second or two, why would you clutter your note / Word doc / slide with something like libronixdls:jump|res=LLS.1.0.1.43&ref=LLSAO:345:10340 ?

 

Bob, I am going to disagree.  I do want to link to a source after I find it.  

I think you are forgetting about the time it takes to dig through the search results.  Once I found something, I do not want to redo my search so I can find what I found again.

I would also like to see the links be more like HTML links.  I might want to copy the quote, and have it linked back to the source.  I do not bring with me a bibliography.  This way when someone asked me, “Where did I get this information?” I can go back to my notes, click on the quote, and then get the bibliography information for this person.

I think linking is VERY VERY important for items within Libronix and to other items on the web, my hard drive, etc...

 

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 9 2009 7:41 AM

Bob Pritchett:

I think we'll also see changes in our workflows simply in response to the technology. Improved searching may, for example, make linking a quote to it's source become less important. If you can search for the text of the quote in a keystroke or two, and find it in a second or two, why would you clutter your note / Word doc / slide with something like libronixdls:jump|res=LLS.1.0.1.43&ref=LLSAO:345:10340 ?

 Please keep the ideas and feedback coming!

Bob, I've had trouble finding source material for quotes before, so maybe my frustration is showing, but I would minimally want to attribute a quote in the note file. Why not put a keylink in the attribution? It just seems to make sense to me. If I could highlight a text and get the code to jump to it from a right-click menu, that would be really cool! Or, if the code to jump to a text were automatically included (by option of course) in the copy/paste opperation -- along with the bibliographical data -- that would also be welcome.

 

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 9 2009 8:09 AM

Bob Pritchett:

think we'll also see changes in our workflows simply in response to the technology. Improved searching may, for example, make linking a quote to it's source become less important. If you can search for the text of the quote in a keystroke or two, and find it in a second or two, why would you clutter your note / Word doc / slide with something like libronixdls:jump|res=LLS.1.0.1.43&ref=LLSAO:345:10340 ?

 Please keep the ideas and feedback coming!

Bob

I must agree with the others that the ability to link to source files from the Notes would be a valuable feature. Of course, it will be much better when that feature is present in the Mac version Cool.

Jack

Posts 1141
Juanita | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 9 2009 8:35 AM

Regarding linking in general (and this is not addressed to any one person's post), let's say one could link from notes in Libronix to other files on your computer and maybe you can already do this-I don't use notes at all, never have.   What happens, and I don't know the answer, when I get a new computer or move files around that have links "to" them--I'm thinking that the links are associated with a given location and they would no longer work.  I know there are such things as "relative" links that somehow make a shift.

Let's say they wouldn't survive the move or shift, then I would only want note files and links to work within Libronix and link to places within Libronix because I wouldn't want to do them all over again.

Thank you for bearing with me.  I tried to describe this situation using the appropriate words and I might not have said it very well.Smile  One last word.  I would definitely use notes in Libronix if I could search over them at the same time.

 

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 9 2009 9:50 AM

JoanKorte:

Regarding linking in general (and this is not addressed to any one person's post), let's say one could link from notes in Libronix to other files on your computer and maybe you can already do this-I don't use notes at all, never have.   What happens, and I don't know the answer, when I get a new computer or move files around that have links "to" them--I'm thinking that the links are associated with a given location and they would no longer work.  I know there are such things as "relative" links that somehow make a shift.

Let's say they wouldn't survive the move or shift, then I would only want note files and links to work within Libronix and link to places within Libronix because I wouldn't want to do them all over again.

Thank you for bearing with me.  I tried to describe this situation using the appropriate words and I might not have said it very well.Smile  One last word.  I would definitely use notes in Libronix if I could search over them at the same time.

 

I believe you are correct that were you to move your files the links would be broken.  It should be stated clearly, however, that if you move your files but retain the same relative structure, i.e., if you maintained a file in a folder named "Hodge-podge" (OK, I'm not feeling creative today) directly under your C:\ drive so that your path would be "C:\Hodge-podge" even though you moved it to a new computer with the same directory structure, it would still work.  It's not moving it per se that is the problem but whether it still has the same address.  I have had a few external links, but I'm not sure that I have them any longer since some of the works I was referncing in HTML form are now Logos resources.  I'd need to check that, and I have lots of notes to check.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 9 2009 2:13 PM

handouts@logos.com is working again -- sorry for the inconvenience.

If you're willing to share your notes files, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 11 2009 8:13 AM

How I have used Notes so far:

1. typing in thoughts, or cutting and pasting commentary directly related to a text I am studying.  But i haven't done this one in a while. 

Primarily, I do this:

2. Use Notes as a collection of my thoughts and research for a sermon series.  So, If I am doing a series on Hebrews, one note file will have all my notes for the series.  The note file is broken down by sermon, and each sermon, by how I study. 

  • my first heading is either the text/topic.  Then I break it down into study component: initial  reading notes, scripture context/references, grammar, word study,  commentary notes, sermonic ideas, illustrations, etc.  These are all subpoints under the main sermon heading.

I do not use everything for my sermon, but the notes are a repository for what I consider, well, note-worthy.  I have then printed off those sections and manually circles/marked what I want to use in my actual sermon.  Printing off is a bear, especially if the notefile is for a series, because you can't really select portions to print, as far as I know.  So I highlight sections and copy them to Word. 

I would like to be able to easily select subsections of notes for printing.  I also find that copying notes to word (using notefile summary, copy/paste) that the formatting is  a bit off, and I find weird things happening after it is pasted, like large sections of blank space, some things not copying correctly, etc. 

Lately I have tried minimizing my Libronix window, and my Word, so that I can see both at the same time.  This works okay.  But I still find that I want to research something quick and I have to enlarge Libronix and it is a bit of a hassle.

Also, the more I preach, the more notefiles I make for series, the more unwieldy my notes list becomes.  A way to manage notes and subfile notes under headings would be nice.

I like the idea of being able to somehow embed a wordprocessor like Mindjet does with IE withing their mindmapping software.  I wouldn't so much mind taking notes in Word if I had two monitors, but I don't, and switching apps is not too fun.

Iwould like to hear (on another forum) more how guys use OneNote.  I have started using it, but haven't integrated it well.  It is related to this forum to the degree that I use it frequently alongside Libronix and sermon prep. (i am trying to figure out a way to use mindmapping during sermon prep, too and not making all this become an unwieldy mess. Libronix is my main source of study and notes)

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 11 2009 8:14 AM

as for "looking pretty", I am a more visual thinker, so ANYTHING that aids that, be it changing font/back ground, adding icons/clip art, actually helps me.  I am sure there is a contignent of folk like me.

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 11 2009 8:17 AM

As clunky as "notes" is, I still think it is pretty cool and has features and uses I have not taken advantage of (example, different note type, note color, etc,).  I would love to SEE how other people do notes.  Perhaps besides collecting them for their own development, Logos could have visual examples of how people use their notes: ie, systems they use, etc.

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 3707
Floyd Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 11 2009 8:33 AM

Daniel DeVilder:
Iwould like to hear (on another forum) more how guys use OneNote.  I have started using it, but haven't integrated it well.  It is related to this forum to the degree that I use it frequently alongside Libronix and sermon prep. (i am trying to figure out a way to use mindmapping during sermon prep, too and not making all this become an unwieldy mess. Libronix is my main source of study and notes)

Daniel:

I will start a thread with this topic - I would be interested in the thoughts of others as well.

Blessings,

Floyd

Blessings,
Floyd

Pastor-Patrick.blogspot.com

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 11 2009 11:15 AM

Daniel DeVilder:

As clunky as "notes" is, I still think it is pretty cool and has features and uses I have not taken advantage of (example, different note type, note color, etc,).  I would love to SEE how other people do notes.  Perhaps besides collecting them for their own development, Logos could have visual examples of how people use their notes: ie, systems they use, etc.

I agree.  Notes definitey needs improvement.  I can't understand, however, people resorting to other programs for their note taking.  When other programs are used one loses the integration with the program which I find to be invaluable.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Floyd Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 11 2009 11:40 AM

George Somsel:

I agree.  Notes definitey needs improvement.  I can't understand, however, people resorting to other programs for their note taking.  When other programs are used one loses the integration with the program which I find to be invaluable.

George:

Each of us is different - if I use a tablet PC, then I want my notes to make use of the tools that are available on a Tablet.  If I use a standard PC, I want Notes to use the tools available on the PC.  Notes does neither - so we use the tools that are available.  As Bob noticed, the reason we use so many different products is that we all study in different ways.  It is not likely that Notes can meet all of our needs - it certainly does not now.  Therefore, we use other products.  I guess, it is a choice - we use an inferior product or use the product that best meets our needs.  Since I use a tablet, I expect that Notes will never meet my needs - but maybe it can be of use to others.  And with enough improvements, I may use it more than I do now - even if does not become my primary tool.

Blessings,

Floyd

Blessings,
Floyd

Pastor-Patrick.blogspot.com

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 11 2009 1:42 PM

Floyd Johnson:

George Somsel:

I agree.  Notes definitey needs improvement.  I can't understand, however, people resorting to other programs for their note taking.  When other programs are used one loses the integration with the program which I find to be invaluable.

George:

Each of us is different - if I use a tablet PC, then I want my notes to make use of the tools that are available on a Tablet.  If I use a standard PC, I want Notes to use the tools available on the PC.  Notes does neither - so we use the tools that are available.  As Bob noticed, the reason we use so many different products is that we all study in different ways.  It is not likely that Notes can meet all of our needs - it certainly does not now.  Therefore, we use other products.  I guess, it is a choice - we use an inferior product or use the product that best meets our needs.  Since I use a tablet, I expect that Notes will never meet my needs - but maybe it can be of use to others.  And with enough improvements, I may use it more than I do now - even if does not become my primary tool.

Blessings,

Floyd

 

I haven't had a tablet PC so I don't know what works and what doesn't.  Why does the note function in Logos not work on a tablet?  It would seem that the main difference is the input device (stylus?).

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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