Copying Greek text with semicolons

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Posts 97
Martin Diers | Forum Activity | Posted: Sat, Nov 20 2010 12:26 PM

Any time I have copied and pasted a passage from any Greek New Testament containing a semicolon, the pasted text invariably shows up as the default Unicode character in that font (in this case an uppercase Sigma) in Word 2011 or in Nisus Pro. However, this does not happen in TextEdit, or in Mellel.

For example, when i copy Romans 6:14, there is a semicolon in the middle of the verse that displays properly. However, when I paste this text into Word 2011 or Nisus Pro, that semi-colon turns into a captial Sigma.

I am using the same fonts in Logos as in Word and in Nisus.

If I first paste into Mellel or into TextEdit, and then copy from there and paste into Nisus or Word, that works, and the semicolon appears normally.

Since this problem occurs in both Word and Nisus, I figured I should bring it up here. Nisus Pro uses the Mac's built-in RTF framework. But then, so does TextEdit. There are not a ton of Nisus Pro users out there, but since the problem happens in Word also, I figured I should bring it up here.

Posts 13420
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 20 2010 12:38 PM

Does this thread help? http://community.logos.com/forums/t/23148.aspx

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 20 2010 1:10 PM

Martin Diers:

Any time I have copied and pasted a passage from any Greek New Testament containing a semicolon, the pasted text invariably shows up as the default Unicode character in that font (in this case an uppercase Sigma) in Word 2011 or in Nisus Pro. However, this does not happen in TextEdit, or in Mellel.

For example, when i copy Romans 6:14, there is a semicolon in the middle of the verse that displays properly. However, when I paste this text into Word 2011 or Nisus Pro, that semi-colon turns into a captial Sigma.

I am using the same fonts in Logos as in Word and in Nisus.

If I first paste into Mellel or into TextEdit, and then copy from there and paste into Nisus or Word, that works, and the semicolon appears normally.

Since this problem occurs in both Word and Nisus, I figured I should bring it up here. Nisus Pro uses the Mac's built-in RTF framework. But then, so does TextEdit. There are not a ton of Nisus Pro users out there, but since the problem happens in Word also, I figured I should bring it up here.

When I copy Greek text I have no problem with this (BTW:  those are not semicolons but Greek question marks).  I did discover that with L4 it is necessary to use the "Copy Bible Verses" tool.  Simply highlighting, copying and pasting doesn't work.  This is a definite drawback over L3.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 97
Martin Diers | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 27 2010 11:42 AM

George Somsel:
When I copy Greek text I have no problem with this (BTW:  those are not semicolons but Greek question marks).  I did discover that with L4 it is necessary to use the "Copy Bible Verses" tool.  Simply highlighting, copying and pasting doesn't work.  This is a definite drawback over L3.

I am not talking about Greek question marks, which I fully understand look like a Latin semi-colon. (For the record, I know Greek fairly well.) I am talking about Greek semi-colons, which look like a raised dot, as you will see in the verse I referenced: Romans 6:14. Give it a shot. Copy Romans 6:14 in BYZ or Nestle, and paste it into Word, and see what you get.

Also, I am using the Copy Bible Verses tool, but I am also able to copy and paste directly by selecting text. The weirdness with copy-and-paste from the text windows has more to do with flaky UI. It is finicky, but it works, if you are persistent. It's just way easier to do it from the Copy tool.

Posts 97
Martin Diers | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 27 2010 11:47 AM

Mark Barnes:

Not so much. That post is about poor RTL support, and the positioning of marks in Hebrew. If I was doing extensive Hebrew work, I would use Mellel or nothing. But Greek has always worked very well for me in pretty much every Word processor I have ever used.

This is an issue with inconsistent character-set translation. The main issue I see is that I cannot copy-and-paste into Word, but I CAN copy-and-paste into TextEdit, and then copy-and-paste from TextEdit into Word, and I have no problems.

Again, I don't know that this is an issue that Logos can do anything about. However, it is true that if I copy from TextEdit, it works, but if I copy from Logos, it doesn't work.

Example screen shots. Logos:

Word:

TextEdit:

Mellel:

Nisus Pro:

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 27 2010 12:57 PM

Martin Diers:

 

George Somsel:
When I copy Greek text I have no problem with this (BTW:  those are not semicolons but Greek question marks).  I did discover that with L4 it is necessary to use the "Copy Bible Verses" tool.  Simply highlighting, copying and pasting doesn't work.  This is a definite drawback over L3.

I am not talking about Greek question marks, which I fully understand look like a Latin semi-colon. (For the record, I know Greek fairly well.) I am talking about Greek semi-colons, which look like a raised dot, as you will see in the verse I referenced: Romans 6:14. Give it a shot. Copy Romans 6:14 in BYZ or Nestle, and paste it into Word, and see what you get.

Also, I am using the Copy Bible Verses tool, but I am also able to copy and paste directly by selecting text. The weirdness with copy-and-paste from the text windows has more to do with flaky UI. It is finicky, but it works, if you are persistent. It's just way easier to do it from the Copy tool.

It works as it should for me.  I'll attempt to paste from the copy I pasted into Word

Romans 6:14–15 (NA27)

14ἁμαρτία γὰρ ὑμῶν οὐ κυριεύσει· οὐ γάρ ἐστε ὑπὸ νόμον ἀλλὰ ὑπὸ χάριν.

How are you copying the verses?  Are you using Copy Bible Verses?  I've found that attempting to highlight, copy (using <ctrl-c> and then pasting doesn't work satisfactorily.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 97
Martin Diers | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 27 2010 1:03 PM

I have done some more research and this is what I have found so far:

When I paste text into TextEdit, the character that is placed into the file is, as you noted, the "middle dot": 0x00B7. When I copy from TextEdit to Nisus, this works just fine. However, this is the wrong character entirely. It works so-so, but it's wrong.

Here's where it gets strange: If I paste directly into Nisus Pro, the same character is translated to Unicode: 0x2211. This is the "N-ARY SUMMATION" character in the Mathematecal Operators code page. This character, by the way, looks exactly like an uppercase sigma.

The character that SHOULD be used for the Greek "semi-colon" is 0x0387, also known as the "ano teleia". All of my Greek fonts support this character. Gentium supports it. All the GFS fonts support it, but none of the text getting pasted from Logos is using it.

Now, interestingly enough, in MacRoman, the capital Sigma happens to be the same character as the Unicode middle dot: 0x00B7. However, the N-ARY SUMMATION character, 0x2211 ALSO looks like a capital Sigma, and this is the character that is getting pasted from Logos. I suppose this could be a pure coincidence, but I highly doubt it.

I now believe that the problem here is with Logos, and not with the various programs. I know that a Mac program is able to copy multiple versions of the same item to the clipboard, so that various softwares can paste the version most appropriate to them. These multiple versions are both plain-text and RTF in multiple encodings. I also know that the Mac API is able to do a certain amount of character-set transcoding automatically. It's a messy mix, to be sure. But whatever the case, it is obvious that there is some sort of mis-match going on here. The UTF-8 version of the copied text should be encoding the ano teleia as 0x0387, but it is not.

Posts 97
Martin Diers | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 27 2010 1:06 PM

George Somsel:
How are you copying the verses?  Are you using Copy Bible Verses?  I've found that attempting to highlight, copy (using <ctrl-c> and then pasting doesn't work satisfactorily.

Martin Diers:
Also, I am using the Copy Bible Verses tool, but I am also able to copy and paste directly by selecting text. The weirdness with copy-and-paste from the text windows has more to do with flaky UI. It is finicky, but it works, if you are persistent. It's just way easier to do it from the Copy tool.

It is perhaps pertinent to mention that I am on the Beta channel.

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 27 2010 1:35 PM

Martin

Everyone else who has attempted to assist you in this are using L4 Win. I tried copying Romans 6:14 two ways with very different results. First, I selected the text, copied and pasted into Word 2008—Everything was as it should have been. I then tried Copy Bible Verses with Copy & Paste into Word—The results here were as you have described.

I am also on the Beta channel with 4.0b RC1. It appears that L4 Mac has a problem here. Hope Tom & Cameron see this thread.

EDIT: I did not notice that the two lines are different fonts (Completely blind I guess). The first is SBL Greek while the second is Times New Roman.

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 27 2010 2:59 PM

Jack Caviness:

Martin

Everyone else who has attempted to assist you in this are using L4 Win. I tried copying Romans 6:14 two ways with very different results. First, I selected the text, copied and pasted into Word 2008—Everything was as it should have been. I then tried Copy Bible Verses with Copy & Paste into Word—The results here were as you have described.

I am also on the Beta channel with 4.0b RC1. It appears that L4 Mac has a problem here. Hope Tom & Cameron see this thread.

EDIT: I did not notice that the two lines are different fonts (Completely blind I guess). The first is SBL Greek while the second is Times New Roman.

There are two possibilities here.  Jack has noted that there are two different fonts in his contrasting examples.  It would appear possible that the problem is with the TNR font which I had noted some time previously though I thought that had been rectified.  I use KadmosU and note that it appears properly.  In my program preferences it doesn't appear possible to change to TNR for Greek to verify that it is the culprit.

The second possibility is that it is a problem with the MAC OS since Windows machines don't seem to have a problem.  In that case I would recommend buying a Windows machine.

It only makes sense to try the first option before resorting to purchasing a new machine.  If you are using TNR for Greek, I would recommend trying another font; apparently it is possible on the MAC to use a different font since Jack has apparently done so.  I rely on his testimony in this regard.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 27 2010 5:15 PM

George Somsel:
The second possibility is that it is a problem with the MAC OS since Windows machines don't seem to have a problem.

I disagree. I can select text in L4 Mac, copy and paste into Word without error. I only get the error if I use Copy Bible Verses from L4 Mac, or copy the text in any manner from L4 Win.

I can paste text into Mellel and Pages without error, no matter how I copy the text from L4 Mac or Win. It appears that the problem resides with Microsoft Word, which is not really all that surprising.

George Somsel:
In that case I would recommend buying a Windows machine.

I would rather return to my Selectric II and an abacus. Big Smile

Posts 97
Martin Diers | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 28 2010 9:25 PM

George Somsel:

There are two possibilities here.  Jack has noted that there are two different fonts in his contrasting examples.  It would appear possible that the problem is with the TNR font which I had noted some time previously though I thought that had been rectified.  I use KadmosU and note that it appears properly.  In my program preferences it doesn't appear possible to change to TNR for Greek to verify that it is the culprit.

The second possibility is that it is a problem with the MAC OS since Windows machines don't seem to have a problem.  In that case I would recommend buying a Windows machine.

George, I hope you wrote this in jest, because otherwise it just comes across as obnoxious. Both your possibilities are wrong. I am not sure why you know so much about this problem when you do not even use a Mac. There is a reason I posted on the Mac forum, and not on the General forum.

The problem is not fonts, as I noted above. Change the font to any polytonic Greek Unicode font, and the result is the same.

As I noted above, it is a character translation problem, plain and simple. It is not a MAC OS issue. It is a Logos issue. Logos is in control of the way it copies text to the clipboard. If it copies the text properly, it is pasted properly. If it translates the characters in a strange manner, you will get exactly what it put on the clipboard in other programs. It is a bug. They need to fix it.

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 28 2010 9:59 PM

Martin Diers:

George, I hope you wrote this in jest, because otherwise it just comes across as obnoxious. Both your possibilities are wrong. I am not sure why you know so much about this problem when you do not even use a Mac. There is a reason I posted on the Mac forum, and not on the General forum.

You're welcome.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 97
Martin Diers | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 1 2010 8:16 AM

George,

You come to the Mac forum when you do not own a Mac -- which is fine. Jump right in. The water is great. You repeatedly do not read the entire post so that you can understand the scope of the problem -- a minor irritation but also an easy mistake that anyone can make. But then you claim to have authoritative answers ("there are two possibilities here"), and when you run out of answers, you then tell us to go buy a Windows machine.

This is not helpful.

Martin

Posts 97
Martin Diers | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 4 2010 9:15 AM

A bit more information:

I have discovered that the error occurs when you use the Copy tool on Greek text with semi-colons, but it does not occur if you copy a selection. This example uses Romans 6:36, and Nisus Writer Pro. The same behavior occurs in Word 2011. The Copy Tool is set to "Microsoft Word" but it doesn't matter which setting is used.

Using the Copy Tool:

Selecting text, right-click, copy selection:

This appears to be an issue with the Copy Tool.

Posts 1875
Alan Macgregor | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 6 2010 5:58 AM

Martin

I experience exactly the same problem as you do using Word for Mac 2008. I was copying Galatians 1:11, NA27 using Copy Bible Verses tool with copy and paste set to Microsoft Word and got your error. So I tried copying other ways. Here are my results.

As you can see we have no problem using cmd-Copy or Drop-down copy. The problem is only in CBV. I am using Gentium in both Logos and Word, however, the ∑ is not in Gentium. Selecting it in Word shows that it is Abadi MT Condensed Extra Bold!! Now where did that come from? Huh?

I think that we have a CBV bug here, Mac Developers. Please help.Sad

Every blessing

Alan

 

iMac Retina 5K, 27": 3.6GHz 8-Core Intel Core i9; 16GB RAM;MacOS 10.15.5; 1TB SSD; Logos 8

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Tom Philpot (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 6 2010 2:58 PM

Alan Macgregor:

Martin

I experience exactly the same problem as you do using Word for Mac 2008. I was copying Galatians 1:11, NA27 using Copy Bible Verses tool with copy and paste set to Microsoft Word and got your error. So I tried copying other ways. Here are my results.

As you can see we have no problem using cmd-Copy or Drop-down copy. The problem is only in CBV. I am using Gentium in both Logos and Word, however, the ∑ is not in Gentium. Selecting it in Word shows that it is Abadi MT Condensed Extra Bold!! Now where did that come from? Huh?

I think that we have a CBV bug here, Mac Developers. Please help.Sad

Every blessing

Alan

Alan, Martin, Jack, et al,,

Thanks for the detailed descriptions. I'll file a CBV bug and we'll take a look.

 

Mobile Development Team Lead

Posts 1875
Alan Macgregor | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 6 2010 3:13 PM

Tom

Thanks for your prompt response. Smile

Every blessing

Alan

iMac Retina 5K, 27": 3.6GHz 8-Core Intel Core i9; 16GB RAM;MacOS 10.15.5; 1TB SSD; Logos 8

MacBook Air 13.3": 1.8GHz; 4GB RAM; MacOS 10.13.6; 256GB SSD; Logos 8

iPad Pro 32GB WiFi iOS 13.5.1

iPhone 8+ 64GB iOS 13.5.1

Posts 97
Martin Diers | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 11 2010 10:34 AM

Alan Macgregor:
As you can see we have no problem using cmd-Copy or Drop-down copy. The problem is only in CBV. I am using Gentium in both Logos and Word, however, the ∑ is not in Gentium. Selecting it in Word shows that it is Abadi MT Condensed Extra Bold!! Now where did that come from?

Now, that I can shed some light on. This is actually normal behavior on a Mac. When you have characters in a text that are not supported in your chosen font, most Mac software (and especially anything using the OS X text rendering engine) will search for that character in other fonts in your system. In your case, Adaby MT Condensed has the character your normal font did not.

So all this really means is that there was a character in your pasted text that was not supported in the font you are using. This is because, for whatever reason, the Copy Tool is wrongly mapping the semicolon to the "N-ARY SUMMATION" character. This character is normally only used in math fonts. Because it is a math operator, it is technically not the same character as a Greek sigma, and appears in a completely different code table than the Greek alphabet.

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