Please Help: Problem with Searching "all word forms" in Greek in L4 (but not L3)

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Posts 205
Stephen Paynter | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Nov 26 2010 12:51 PM

I am having a difficulty in replicating a search in L4, which was easy in L3.

In L3, I typed "δικαιόω" NEAR "απο" in a basic search, over a user defined collection called "Greek Texts", which included non-biblical texts, such as Philo, Josephus and the Pseudepigrapha, as well as biblical texts such as NA27 and the LXX.

This returned a believable set of results, including verses which has a number of different variants on "justify".

In L4, when I type "greek:δικαιόω" in a search over the equivalent collection of texts, I get no results! Clearly, only this version of "I justify" is being looked for!!

This seems to be confirmed when I search for "greek:δίκαιος NEAR greek:ἀπὸ" over Greek Texts, and I get 14 results, each of which has "δίκαιος" in exactly that form.

Now, the search has "match all word forms" selected, and I've not used the "stem" keyword in the search.

So the question is   ... help, ... how do I search for "all word forms" in Greek?

Do I have to manually create a list of all the forms I will accept? If so ... how do I do that?

 

 

 

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 26 2010 1:01 PM

Stephen Edward Paynter:
So the question is   ... help, ... how do I search for "all word forms" in Greek?

You'll have to search specifically for the lemma.

The basic formula is <Lemma = lbs/el/εἰρήνη> (obviously not your word).

But I find this difficult to type in without switching to a Greek keyboard. What I do instead is to find an instance of that word in a reverse interlinear, or a Greek NT, right click and search for the lemma. For doing more than one word, search for the second, then after the results display copy and paste one search formula into the other like this: <Lemma = lbs/el/εἰρήνη> NEAR <Lemma = lbs/el/γῆ>. For me this is the fastest and easiest way to do this type of searching. Others may offer better advice.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 205
Stephen Paynter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 26 2010 1:23 PM

Thank you for this valiant attempt ... unfortunately, when I do just as you suggest, I only get answers from NA27, not from my other Greek texts. Is that some feature of this "lemma" keyword?

I typed "<Lemma = lls/el/δικαιόω> NEAR <Lemma = lls/el/ἀπό>"

How would I achieve the same results over Philo and Josephus?

 

(Interestingly, NEAR seems to have been redefined since L3. Although my search brings up Acts 13:38 in L3, I have to change it to "WITHIN 8 WORDS" in L4 to bring up Acts 13:38.)

 

 

Posts 205
Stephen Paynter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 26 2010 1:32 PM

Okay, so I spotted the difference between what you suggested I type, and what I actually typed: namely, lbs rather than lls. When I actually used lbs I got results from the Apostolic Fathers, the LXX, the Pseudepigrapha and Philo  .... BUT NOT from the NT!

Is there some other code that will allow me to get results from all my Greek texts? Where are these codes documented?

Posts 13397
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 26 2010 2:06 PM

To clarify the original question, 'search all word forms' is designed for English language searches, not Greek or Hebrew.

The reason for the codes is that different resources in Logos have different morphologies. They're not documented, but there's only five of them to my knowledge:

  • lbs: Logos Greek Morphology
  • lls: Gramcord Greek Morphology
  • fe: Friberg Greek Morphology
  • mr: Robinson Greek Morphology
  • js: Swanson Greek Morphology

You can search across morphologies by searching for <lemma = lbs/el/δικαιόω>, <lemma = lls/el/δικαιόω>, <lemma = fe/el/δικαιόω>, <lemma = mr/el/δικαιόω>, <lemma = js/el/δικαιόω> in a Basic or Bible search.

Remember that if you want to specify morphology for each lemma, then the different morphologies have different codes.

Posts 13397
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 26 2010 2:16 PM

I should add that some of these morphologies are quite rare in Logos, and there may only be one resource in your library with that morphology. Consequently, it might be searching your collection for a very common word like θεός in each morphology. If it has no hits, then you can ignore that morphology in your searches. Probably the following search will be sufficient:

(<lemma = lbs/el/δικαιόω>, <lemma = lls/el/δικαιόω>) NEAR (<lemma = lbs/el/ἀπό>, <lemma = lls/el/ἀπό>)

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steve clark | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 26 2010 3:00 PM

Mark Barnes:

The reason for the codes is that different resources in Logos have different morphologies. They're not documented, but there's only five of them to my knowledge:

  • lbs: Logos Greek Morphology
  • lls: Gramcord Greek Morphology
  • fe: Friberg Greek Morphology
  • mr: Robinson Greek Morphology
  • js: Swanson Greek Morphology

Added to wiki Greek Morphological Codes used in Search

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Posts 205
Stephen Paynter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 27 2010 2:00 AM

Mark Barnes:

Thank you for this. I had found another thread on the subject from 2009 (after following your hint on how to ask for help, and using a google search of the Logos site for a thread on the subject), and had ended up with:

"<Lemma = lbs/el/δικαιόω> WITHIN 8 WORDS <Lemma = lbs/el/ἀπό> OR <Lemma = lls/el/δικαιόω> WITHIN 8 WORDS <Lemma = lls/el/ἀπό>"

However, your solution is neater: I didn't know you could use commas like that in search strings.

Just out of interest, what does the "el" mean in these strings?

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 27 2010 2:42 AM

Stephen Edward Paynter:
I didn't know you could use commas like that in search strings.

Commas function equivalently to ORs in some situations, but are not quite the same. It's worth understanding the differences: http://wiki.logos.com/Detailed_Search_Help#Using_lists

Stephen Edward Paynter:
Just out of interest, what does the "el" mean in these strings?

The el is the 2 character language code for Greek.

Posts 205
Stephen Paynter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 27 2010 6:31 AM

Mark Barnes:
  • lbs: Logos Greek Morphology
  • lls: Gramcord Greek Morphology
  • fe: Friberg Greek Morphology
  • mr: Robinson Greek Morphology
  • js: Swanson Greek Morphology

You can search across morphologies by searching for <lemma = lbs/el/δικαιόω>, <lemma = lls/el/δικαιόω>, <lemma = fe/el/δικαιόω>, <lemma = mr/el/δικαιόω>, <lemma = js/el/δικαιόω> in a Basic or Bible search.

It seems to me that the wildcard character that can be used in some places in searches, could be usefully added to the syntax of the search language at this point, so that <lemma = */el/δικαιόω> would replace the above string. This would then work should new resources with new morphologies be added at some future point.

However, in terms of readable syntax, L3 really does have L4 beat at this point, even if the L4 syntax is ultimately more flexible. Perhaps there is some way of making "lemma" with a wildcard the default behaviour for Greek (and Hebrew) as it is for English, and as it was in L3. It is not as if there is not away of specifying the specific stem if that is what one wants.

Anyway, thank you everyone. I can now do the searching I needed to do.

 

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 27 2010 10:14 PM

Stephen Edward Paynter:
However, in terms of readable syntax, L3 really does have L4 beat at this point

Agreed.  The nearest you get is to use lemma:δικαιόω WITHIN 9 words lemma:ἀπό in Morph Search and select the morphology from the drop-down.

Dave
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Posts 205
Stephen Paynter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 15 2011 1:48 PM

Sorry to resurrect such an old thread, but I have returned to this search now that the Perseus collection of Greek texts is here.

Mark Barnes:

To clarify the original question, 'search all word forms' is designed for English language searches, not Greek or Hebrew.

The reason for the codes is that different resources in Logos have different morphologies. They're not documented, but there's only five of them to my knowledge:

  • lbs: Logos Greek Morphology
  • lls: Gramcord Greek Morphology
  • fe: Friberg Greek Morphology
  • mr: Robinson Greek Morphology
  • js: Swanson Greek Morphology

You can search across morphologies by searching for <lemma = lbs/el/δικαιόω>, <lemma = lls/el/δικαιόω>, <lemma = fe/el/δικαιόω>, <lemma = mr/el/δικαιόω>, <lemma = js/el/δικαιόω> in a Basic or Bible search.

Remember that if you want to specify morphology for each lemma, then the different morphologies have different codes.

My question is, what is the morphology code for the Perseus Greek texts?  The wiki page (if I've checked the right one) does not seem to have been updated.

How will I know if I am picking up all the one's I should be in a search?

Thanks for any help.

 

Posts 3163
Dominick Sela | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 15 2011 2:25 PM

If you right-click on a Greek word in a Perseus resource, click lemma on the right side, and click "Search this resource" on the left side, you'll see the search is <Lemma= lbs/el/...." So I would say lbs is the code, which makes sense since I assume Logos added the morphology? Anyway try that trick on a resource you are interested in, in Perseus, and see if you don't get the same.

Posts 5615
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 15 2011 2:39 PM

Stephen Edward Paynter:
My question is, what is the morphology code for the Perseus Greek texts? 

I believe they are all Logos morphologies.  The morph codes are auto-generated, so a single word in a Perseus text may have more than one morph associated with it, as here:

You can detemine the morphology of a given text by right-clicking on a word and doing a morph search from the menu (if available).  The morph search window will display the morphology used.  You can then switch to the Basic search view and see the label used for that morphology.

 

Wiki Links: Enabling Logging / Detailed Search Help - MacBook Pro (2014), ThinkPad E570

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 15 2011 3:00 PM

Stephen Edward Paynter:
My question is, what is the morphology code for the Perseus Greek texts? 

With several Logos Greek Morphology (lbs) visual filters, have highlighted various words in Perseus texts (Greek & Latin).  Amount of highlighting depends on words tagged in a Perseus resource (from a little to a lot).

Keep Smiling Smile

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