Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament - textual apparatus
Overall, I like Logos... but as a seminary student with limited funds, I was very disappointed to discover that the Nestle Aland NT contained in the basic Scholar edition does NOT include the textual apparatus.
That, to me, is akin to selling study Bibles, but ripping out the concordance that comes with it and charging extra for it.
C'mon Logos... really??? A basic apparatus is standard to most Greek NT's. Why make us pay extra to just to be able to have a capability to (at a glance) determine if there are any significant variation in the text? Not saying we should have an exhaustive apparatus necessarily, but couldn't we have at least *something* along the lines of a basic one?
Respectfully,
Stan
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Hi Stanley and welcome to the forum! Regarding your frustration, you probably should re-direct it to the NA27 publisher, who carefully 'manages' what goes with what. If you search 'SESB' on Logos, you'll see (a) quite a bit of animated discussion and (b) how the resource groups are packaged by the publisher. You almost have to buy the most expensive one to get what you want.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Thanks.
Put another way: I would GLADLY trade about 70% of the e-books I have in Logos (most of which have a "reformed" theological bent, which I will probably rarely use, as I am a Lutheran) just to have an apparatus in Greek and Hebrew.
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The new SBL GNT has a basic apparatus, although it is quite different from NA 27's apparatus. You can get it for free: http://www.logos.com/product/8486/the-greek-new-testament-sbl-edition if you don't already have it.
If you get the Original Language Library or Scholar's Gold or up you can get Tischendorf's apparatus, old but still useful.
The fact of the matter is that even Bibleworks, renowned for its focus on exegesis, does not offer the NA27 apparatus even as an extra module. Accordance, Logos' chief rival on the Mac side of things, has a CD that one must purchase to get the NA27 and BHS apparatuses, it is similar in scope to the SESB for Logos Users which is slightly more expensive but looks like it has more content.
I share your frustration for having a text-only NA 27 but there's not much that can be done.
Prov. 15:23
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It is true that the SBL has an apparatus, but as you mentioned it is not a critical apparatus which in my opinion defeats the purpose, at least for what I am trying to accomplish with it. BibleWorks does have Tischendorf in the program and not as an add in module which is nice, I personally have come to prefer Tischendorf's over NA 27. That being said Bibleworks has also been very transparent in their dealings and attempts to get the NA 27 apparatus and failure to do so over the German Bible Society unwillingness to come down in price. That being said Bibleworks has also been working on (for quite some time but many of the same frustrations follow with manuscripts and copyright I am afraid) a tool that would help a person to create their own apparatus filled with the variants of the text of their choosing. I feel that this will probably be awhile before we see this. In the meantime, I am satisfied with Logos and their inclusion of NA 27's apparatus and use it as such.
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James Sansom said:
That being said Bibleworks has also been very transparent in their dealings and attempts to get the NA 27 apparatus and failure to do so over the German Bible Society unwillingness to come down in price. That being said Bibleworks has also been working on (for quite some time but many of the same frustrations follow with manuscripts and copyright I am afraid) a tool that would help a person to create their own apparatus filled with the variants of the text of their choosing.
This is the logical conclusion of electronic Biblical scholarship and projects like Dan Wallace's Center for the Study of New Testament Manuscripts. I expect that within the not so distant future we will be able to acquire images/transcriptions of almost every extant Greek manuscript with the ability to have a custom or exhaustive apparatus. Such a product would not be limited by the space constraints of a print volume and hopefully will allow for better textual critical deliberations and discussions.
Prov. 15:23
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Hi Stan
I recall the same frustration when I purchased Scholars, and discovered the critical apparatus was not included.
What I ended up doing was adding the Stuttgart Electronic Study Bible (SESB) for Logos Users.
In the end, I guess it has to do with what can and can't be included for the price, given the partnerships with the copyright holders.
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So even if you have all the resources in SESB aside from the apparatuses, you have to buy the entire SESB just to add the apparatuses?
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Alfonso Espinosa said:
So even if you have all the resources in SESB aside from the apparatuses, you have to buy the entire SESB just to add the apparatuses?
Yes, that is correct if you are looking for the apparatuses for the BHS, BHQ, NA27, and USB4. I am sure Logos would offer these separately or in a base package if the publisher allowed, but as it is the publisher requires the purchase of one of two SESB packages for apparatuses. The cheapest option is $179.95 http://www.logos.com/product/8484/stuttgart-electronic-study-bible.
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Edit: Post no longer relevant.
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Kevin Becker said:
...The fact of the matter is that even Bibleworks, renowned for its focus on exegesis, does not offer the NA27 apparatus even as an extra module. ..
To be fair to Bibleworks it should also be mention that...
As, of BibleWorks version 9 the CNTTS apparatus database is included in the base package. It's basepackage also offers the complete NT digital image sets of the following manuscripts(from Dan Wallace's Center for the Study of New Testament Manuscripts) in their entirety:
- Sinaiticus
- Vaticanus
- Alexandrinus
- Bezae
- Washingtonianus
- Boernerianus
- GA1141
Having said that I think the OP would be better served with the full SESB 3.0/Libronix (only 324.95USD) rather than Logos Scholars(629.95USD) since what the OP really wants (at this time) it just the Greek NT with the Apparatus. However, if the OP is a seminary student the OP may need the bigger library provided by Logos4 Scholar package.
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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BK ... did you mean http://www.logos.com/product/8484/stuttgart-electronic-study-bible ($180) which has all the apparatus needed?
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Kevin Becker said:
... I expect that within the not so distant future we will be able to acquire images/transcriptions of almost every extant Greek manuscript with the ability to have a custom or exhaustive apparatus....
This already being done to some extent in other software (and beautifully so!).
However, it will be interesting to see what Logos, does or what it will offer in the future.
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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Denise Barnhart said:
BK ... did you mean http://www.logos.com/product/8484/stuttgart-electronic-study-bible ($180) which has all the apparatus needed?
Nope, I meant that the OP should probably have gone for the full SESB library, rather than Scholars. Or, that the OP should get a refund or exchange and then get the full SESB. I think that would make more sense.I think Scholars is a great bargin price wise for students studying theology and needing good basic library in electronic format.However, for those on tight budgets who need to do exegesis or for those who just want to have the essential Hebrew/Greek (& maybe Aramic) texts in electronic format it is better to just get the Original Languge package OR the full SESB (to get the apparatus and more), and then add extra reasourse as one's budget allows.חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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Respectfully, I disagree that the publisher is the cause of the OP's disappointment.
I think is is fair for customers to assume that the Logos product faithfully reproduces the text, unless told otherwise. Besides this being a general principle of commercial law, it is congruent with Logos' statement that they will not alter or correct files received from the publisher.
As a 2-month user I have found a few differences from the book text and the Logos resource I received. This occurred in my base packages--OLL and Catholic Scholars--as well as collections and individual resources. Searching on the forums, I have found others with similar complaints.
In my opinion, the Logos website product descriptions (or PDF charts) too often fail to identify when Logos resources do not include all the content of the original texts (with exceptions for Logos functionality such as auto TOCs). I presume Logos knows (or could know) what was in the original text, what is in the Logos product, and what is in the advertising description; I conclude that Logos is the source of the discrepancies.
Honestly, I am troubled by this issue and wonder if I am correct. I am preparing a list of what I (or other posters) consider differences. If posters on this thread would be so kind, if I post the list on this thread, would you review it and make sure I am not too off base?
Has anyone else noted such discrepancies?
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Dennis, you're talking about the elephant in the room.
Take for example Aland's Harmony, which I bought and then got a refund on.
My big issue is the copy writers don't really have much familiarity with the products and largely just copy from the publisher, often without regard to the Logos version. Hopefully the recent 'review' section will bring in some expertise.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Yes, I was upset that Aland's Synopsis and UBS4 did not indicate what was omitted from the print versions, among other discrepancies.
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Lots of us are upset about the Brenton LXX Apocrypha, which are supposed to be included in several base packages, but which seems to have been omitted by mistake, and have been promised for a very long time without any result to show. And the product page still says it's included. Yes, in this case it's not that it omits to say that it's not included; it actually specifically states that it is included. And yet I've been waiting for it for 16 months, and others have waited longer still.
Do a search for Brenton and you should find lots of threads about it, at least three just in the last half a year.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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Dennis Parish said:
Honestly, I am troubled by this issue and wonder if I am correct. I am preparing a list of what I (or other posters) consider differences. If posters on this thread would be so kind, if I post the list on this thread, would you review it and make sure I am not too off base?
[Y]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Dennis Parish said:
Yes, I was upset that Aland's Synopsis and UBS4 did not indicate what was omitted from the print versions, among other discrepancies.
The Byzantine Text omits introductory material and essays, and I agree that the electronic product should match the print version, unless it specifically states otherwise.
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Dennis Parish said:
...In my opinion, the Logos website product descriptions (or PDF charts)
too often fail to identify when Logos resources do not include all the
content of the original texts (with exceptions for Logos functionality
such as auto TOCs). I presume Logos knows (or could know) what was in
the original text, what is in the Logos product, and what is in the
advertising description; I conclude that Logos is the source of the
discrepancies...I agree with you.
And, it is true that Logos Base Product descriptions do not inform
potential customers that the apparatuses for the Geek and Hebrew texts
are not included with the edition of BHS and the NA27 in their
base-packages but, they do provide this disclaimer on the product page for the Nestle-Aland 27th Edition Greek New Testament (Morphological Edition)[quote]***Due to licensing restrictions, the BHS, UBS, and NA27 do not include
critical apparatuses. The apparatuses are included separately in the Stuttgart Electronic Study Bible (SESB).And, the product page for the:
Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia (BHS Hebrew): With Westminster 4.2 Morphology contains the following note
[quote]Due to licensing restrictions, the BHS does not include critical apparatuses. The apparatuses are included separately in the Stuttgart Electronic Study Bible (SESB).
Unfortunately, many never see these disclaimers because the NA27 and the BHS are probably most often acquired through the purchase of a Base Product which do not carry similar disclaimers.
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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[Corrected in response to NewbieMick--I haven't had coffee this a.m.] I think the USB4 apparatus is not available even by add-on.
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EDIT:
Dennis Parish said:
Yes. And I think the UBS4 is only available through a base package.
No, there used to be a CD-ROM - ah, here: http://www.logos.com/product/7839/ubs-4-westcott-hort-with-swanson-morphological-analysis and besides SESB I think there was at least a third-party package from AMG that included it as well, IIRC.
/ EDIT
Dennis Parish said:[Corrected--haven't had coffee this a.m.] I think the USB4 apparatus is not available even by add-on.
No idea about USB4 apparatus apart from SESB.
Have joy in the Lord!
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Dennis ... USB4 includes their apparatus in the actual resource, instead of a separate resource. Don't know if you were thinking of that.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise, thanks.
NewbeMick: Looks like Christmas credit is going to SESB for Logos users. Thanks.
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Denise Barnhart said:
Dennis ... USB4 includes their apparatus in the actual resource, instead of a separate resource. Don't know if you were thinking of that.
Same with NA27, only the SBL GNT comes with a separate apparatus resource, which makes it much easier to handle. One could use the Power lookup to see it. UBS:
:SBL and NA 27 in comparison (click to enlarge):
Have joy in the Lord!
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Dennis Parish said:
Unfortunately, many never see these disclaimers because the NA27 and the BHS are probably most often acquired through the purchase of a Base Product which do not carry similar disclaimers.
I agree! This is what happened to me. I got a base package, and I had no idea that I would have a neutered NA27. Until they put a big fat disclaimer on their base packages, this is outright deceptive.
But now my issue is that if I get SESB just so I can get NA27's apparatus, will I have to buy SESB all over again when NA28 comes out?
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Alfonso James Espinosa said:
now my issue is that if I get SESB just so I can get NA27's apparatus, will I have to buy SESB all over again when NA28 comes out?
All Logos resources are what they are and are normally not updated to reflect newer editions, except for minimal silent updates like ESV is doing to their text. There was a (now largely abandoned) project for SESB 4 that should have shipped by end of last year, now the German Bible Society is looking for a new strategic direction for SESB. If they were to offer an update to SESB, this could also contain NA28 if it is available - but this is pure speculation. There is no information whatsoever if, what and when the German Bible Society will release any Logos product in the future.
In the past, there have been upgrade packages from one version of SESB to the next (see http://www.logos.com/product/8735/stuttgart-electronic-study-bible-sesb-version-30-upgrade ) , so users did have to pay something for the new functionality and resources, but not "all over again".
It could as well be that German Bible Society splits up SESB into meaningful sub-packages (German Bibles, European Bibles, Critical Text Greek, Critical Text Hebrew) or indvidual resources each with their own lifecycle. This solution would suit all users best, but I'm not sure how GBS feels about it, and they don't put much effort into communication when it comes to these kind of questions.
Have joy in the Lord!
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NewbieMick said:
now the German Bible Society is looking for a new strategic direction for SESB
Just did read the forum (don't speak German but with translation was able to make it out). I appreciate those who made the effort to get this information and am hoping for the best in the future.
SESB 4 for Logos 4??? - SESB- Textausgaben - SESB (Stuttgarter Elektronischen Studienbibel) - Forum
"For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power"
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Jerry M said:NewbieMick said:
now the German Bible Society is looking for a new strategic direction for SESB
Just did read the forum (don't speak German but with translation was able to make it out). I appreciate those who made the effort to get this information and am hoping for the best in the future.
SESB 4 for Logos 4??? - SESB- Textausgaben - SESB (Stuttgarter Elektronischen Studienbibel) - Forum
Thanks Jerry for linking to this information. At least there is hope now that German Bible Society will continue to work with Logos and bring new or updated resources in the future (the GBS representative wrote about BHQ, but I'm rather certain the same will hold for changes in NA).
Have joy in the Lord!
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Quick update re:
Alfonso James Espinosa said:when NA28 comes out?
I carried your question over to the German SESB forum, as today someone from German Bible Society is active over there (first time since many months) and just now received an answer from him: NA28 will surely not be available in Logos in 2012.
So this shouldn't hold you back buying SESB now in anticipation of a major change in the apparatuses.
Hope this helps, Mick
Have joy in the Lord!
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