Nestle-Aland Greek New Testament - textual apparatus

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Posts 2
Stanley Palmer | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, Jan 31 2011 8:36 AM

Overall, I like Logos... but as a seminary student with limited funds, I was very disappointed to discover that the Nestle Aland NT contained in the basic Scholar edition does NOT include the textual apparatus.

That, to me, is akin to selling study Bibles, but ripping out the concordance that comes with it and charging extra for it.

C'mon Logos... really???  A basic apparatus is standard to most Greek NT's.  Why make us pay extra to just to be able to have a capability to (at a glance) determine if there are any significant variation in the text?  Not saying we should have an exhaustive apparatus necessarily, but couldn't we have at least *something* along the lines of a basic one?

Respectfully,

Stan

Posts 10178
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 31 2011 8:49 AM

Hi Stanley and welcome to the forum! Regarding your frustration, you probably should re-direct it to the NA27 publisher, who carefully 'manages' what goes with what. If you search 'SESB' on Logos, you'll see (a) quite a bit of animated discussion and (b) how the resource groups are packaged by the publisher. You almost have to buy the most expensive one to get what you want.


Posts 2
Stanley Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 31 2011 9:02 AM

Thanks. 

Put another way: I would GLADLY trade about 70% of the e-books I have in Logos (most of which have a "reformed" theological bent, which I will probably rarely use, as I am a Lutheran) just to have an apparatus in Greek and Hebrew.

Posts 5337
Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 31 2011 9:42 AM

The new SBL GNT has a basic apparatus, although it is quite different from NA 27's apparatus. You can get it for free: http://www.logos.com/product/8486/the-greek-new-testament-sbl-edition  if you don't already have it.

If you get the Original Language Library or Scholar's Gold or up you can get Tischendorf's apparatus, old but still useful.

The fact of the matter is that even Bibleworks, renowned for its focus on exegesis, does not offer the NA27 apparatus even as an extra module. Accordance, Logos' chief rival on the Mac side of things, has a CD that one must purchase to get the NA27 and BHS apparatuses, it is similar in scope to the SESB for Logos Users which is slightly more expensive but looks like it has more content.

I share your frustration for having a text-only NA 27 but there's not much that can be done.

Posts 26
sansom48 | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 31 2011 9:54 AM

It is true that the SBL has an apparatus, but as you mentioned it is not a critical apparatus which in my opinion defeats the purpose, at least for what I am trying to accomplish with it. BibleWorks does have Tischendorf in the program and not as an add in module which is nice, I personally have come to prefer Tischendorf's over NA 27. That being said Bibleworks has also been very transparent in their dealings and attempts to get the NA 27 apparatus and failure to do so over the German Bible Society unwillingness to come down in price. That being said Bibleworks has also been working on (for quite some time but many of the same frustrations follow with manuscripts and copyright I am afraid) a tool that would help a person to create their own apparatus filled with the variants of the text of their choosing. I feel that this will probably be awhile before we see this. In the meantime, I am satisfied with Logos and their inclusion of NA 27's apparatus and use it as such.

Posts 5337
Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 31 2011 10:07 AM

James Sansom:
That being said Bibleworks has also been very transparent in their dealings and attempts to get the NA 27 apparatus and failure to do so over the German Bible Society unwillingness to come down in price. That being said Bibleworks has also been working on (for quite some time but many of the same frustrations follow with manuscripts and copyright I am afraid) a tool that would help a person to create their own apparatus filled with the variants of the text of their choosing.

This is the logical conclusion of electronic Biblical scholarship and projects like Dan Wallace's Center for the Study of New Testament Manuscripts. I expect that within the not so distant future we will be able to acquire images/transcriptions of almost every extant Greek manuscript with the ability to have a custom or exhaustive apparatus. Such a product would not be limited by the space constraints of a print volume and hopefully will allow for better textual critical deliberations and discussions.

Posts 1633
Allen Browne | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 31 2011 6:08 PM

Hi Stan

I recall the same frustration when I purchased Scholars, and discovered the critical apparatus was not included.

What I ended up doing was adding the Stuttgart Electronic Study Bible (SESB) for Logos Users.

In the end, I guess it has to do with what can and can't be included for the price, given the partnerships with the copyright holders.

Posts 12
Alfonso Espinosa | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 6 2012 2:08 PM

So even if you have all the resources in SESB aside from the apparatuses, you have to buy the entire SESB just to add the apparatuses?

Posts 188
Si | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 6 2012 2:23 PM

Alfonso Espinosa:

So even if you have all the resources in SESB aside from the apparatuses, you have to buy the entire SESB just to add the apparatuses?

Yes, that is correct if you are looking for the apparatuses for the BHS, BHQ, NA27, and USB4.  I am sure Logos would offer these separately or in a base package if the publisher allowed, but as it is the publisher requires the purchase of one of two SESB packages for apparatuses.  The cheapest option is $179.95 http://www.logos.com/product/8484/stuttgart-electronic-study-bible.

 

Posts 2278
Andy | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 6 2012 2:42 PM

Edit: Post no longer relevant.

 

Posts 468
BKMitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 6 2012 2:42 PM

Kevin Becker:
...The fact of the matter is that even Bibleworks, renowned for its focus on exegesis, does not offer the NA27 apparatus even as an extra module. ..

To be fair to Bibleworks it should also be mention that...

As, of BibleWorks version 9 the CNTTS apparatus database is included in the base package. It's basepackage also offers the complete NT digital image sets of the following manuscripts(from Dan Wallace's Center for the Study of New Testament Manuscripts) in their entirety: 

  • Sinaiticus
  • Vaticanus
  • Alexandrinus
  • Bezae
  • Washingtonianus
  • Boernerianus
  • GA1141

Having said that I think the OP would be better served with the full SESB 3.0/Libronix (only 324.95USD) rather than Logos Scholars(629.95USD) since what the OP really wants (at this time) it just the Greek NT with the Apparatus. However, if the OP is a seminary student the OP may need the bigger library provided by Logos4 Scholar package.

 

חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי

Posts 10178
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 6 2012 2:49 PM

BK ... did you mean http://www.logos.com/product/8484/stuttgart-electronic-study-bible ($180) which has all the apparatus needed?


Posts 468
BKMitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 6 2012 2:54 PM

Kevin Becker:
... I expect that within the not so distant future we will be able to acquire images/transcriptions of almost every extant Greek manuscript with the ability to have a custom or exhaustive apparatus....

This already being done to some extent in other software (and beautifully so!).

However, it will be interesting to see what Logos, does or what it will offer in the future.

 

חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי

Posts 468
BKMitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 6 2012 3:12 PM

Denise Barnhart:
BK ... did you mean http://www.logos.com/product/8484/stuttgart-electronic-study-bible ($180) which has all the apparatus needed?


Nope, I meant that the OP should probably have gone for the full SESB library, rather than Scholars. Or,  that the OP should get a refund or exchange and then get the full SESB. I think that would make more sense.

I think Scholars is a great bargin price wise for students studying theology and needing good basic library in electronic format.

However, for those on tight budgets who need to do exegesis or  for those who just want to have the essential Hebrew/Greek (& maybe Aramic) texts in electronic format it is better to just get the Original Languge package OR the full SESB (to get the apparatus and more), and then add extra reasourse as one's budget allows.



חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי

Posts 117
Dennis Parish | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 6 2012 6:38 PM

Respectfully, I disagree that the publisher is the cause of the OP's disappointment.

I think is is fair for customers to assume that the Logos product faithfully reproduces the text, unless told otherwise. Besides this being a general principle of commercial law, it is congruent with Logos' statement that they will not alter or correct files received from the publisher.

As a 2-month user I have found a few differences from the book text and the Logos resource I received. This occurred in my base packages--OLL and Catholic Scholars--as well as collections and individual resources. Searching on the forums, I have found others with similar complaints. 

In my opinion, the Logos website product descriptions (or PDF charts) too often fail to identify when Logos resources do not include all the content of the original texts (with exceptions for Logos functionality such as auto TOCs). I presume Logos knows (or could know) what was in the original text, what is in the Logos product, and what is in the advertising description; I conclude that Logos is the source of the discrepancies. 

Honestly, I am troubled by this issue and wonder if I am correct. I am preparing a list of what I (or other posters) consider differences. If posters on this thread would be so kind, if I post the list on this thread, would you review it and make sure I am not too off base?

 Has anyone else noted such discrepancies? 

Posts 10178
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 6 2012 6:48 PM

Dennis, you're talking about the elephant in the room.

Take for example Aland's Harmony, which I bought and then got a refund on.

My big issue is the copy writers don't really have much familiarity with the products and largely just copy from the publisher, often without regard to the Logos version. Hopefully the recent 'review' section will bring in some expertise.


Posts 117
Dennis Parish | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 6 2012 6:52 PM

Yes, I was upset that Aland's Synopsis and UBS4 did not indicate what was omitted from the print versions, among other discrepancies. 

Posts 8893
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 6 2012 7:18 PM

Lots of us are upset about the Brenton LXX Apocrypha, which are supposed to be included in several base packages, but which seems to have been omitted by mistake, and have been promised for a very long time without any result to show. And the product page still says it's included. Yes, in this case it's not that it omits to say that it's not included; it actually specifically states that it is included. And yet I've been waiting for it for 16 months, and others have waited longer still.

Do a search for Brenton and you should find lots of threads about it, at least three just in the last half a year.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 6 2012 7:55 PM

Dennis Parish:
Honestly, I am troubled by this issue and wonder if I am correct. I am preparing a list of what I (or other posters) consider differences. If posters on this thread would be so kind, if I post the list on this thread, would you review it and make sure I am not too off base?

Yes

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 645
Dean J | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 6 2012 9:14 PM

Dennis Parish:

Yes, I was upset that Aland's Synopsis and UBS4 did not indicate what was omitted from the print versions, among other discrepancies. 

The Byzantine Text omits introductory material and essays, and I agree that the electronic product should match the print version, unless it specifically states otherwise. 

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