A Gift to ALL Catholics *smile*

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 20 2011 6:10 PM

Mike Pettit:
Why this was said I have no idea, but you cannot go around making statements like that and expect it to go unchallanged. It has since been pointed out that Rome does not view protestants as schismatics so where does that leave us?

If you read what has been said multiple times:

1. many Protestants consider themselves as catholic with a small c - that is where those Protestants go

2. Protestants who do not consider themselves as catholic with a small c are not covered - the definitions are for "catholic" which is a subset of "Christian".

Can you please explain to me what the grounds for the challenge are? Am I obligated to say:

  • I wish to describe the various uses of the word "Catholic"
  • Before I can do so, I must define the word "Christian"
  • Before I can do so, I must define the term "member of a religious organization"
  • Before I can do so, I must define "religion"
  • Before I can do so, I must define "belief"
  • Before I can do so, I must define "consciousness"
  • Before I can do so, I must define "living being"
  • Before I can do so, I must define "created"
  • Before I can do so, I must define "creator"
  • Before I can do so, I must define .... oops, I guess I do have a problemBig Smile

Mike Pettit:
This board is for discussing Logos, not to push a doctrinal position.

And the Oxford English Dictionary is a theological text? I agree the forum is for Logos ... and no doctrinal position has been pushed. Be glad you all aren't my kids ... I'd make you apologize to Milford before you could have supper.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Ronald Quick | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 20 2011 6:18 PM

Milford - Thanks for the link.  I've never been there but would love to go.

George - I had to look up the word "curmugeon".  Never seen it before - I learned something.

Posts 175
Silent Sam | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 20 2011 6:21 PM

MJ. Smith:
Be glad you all aren't my kids

 

Oh, Believe me. I am glad...I may be elated ! Big Smile

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 20 2011 6:22 PM

Silent Sam:

MJ. Smith:
Be glad you all aren't my kids

 

Oh, Believe me I am glad...I may be elated ! Big Smile

Yes

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 20 2011 6:39 PM

Ronald Quick:

George - I had to look up the word "curmugeon".  Never seen it before - I learned something.

Not original with me.  I believe MJ first called me that -- possibly offlist.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 20 2011 6:43 PM

MJ. Smith:
Be glad you all aren't my kids ... I'd make you apologize to Milford before you could have supper.

No pie !  No pie !
And you shall have no pie !

          Big Smile

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 117
Paul C | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 20 2011 9:58 PM

Yes

K.J.:

George Somsel:

Mike Pettit:

This board is for discussing Logos, not to push a doctrinal position.

 

Precisely, so let's get back to the subject.

We should use you as an example of how to stay on topic? Big Smile I see a new MVP on the horizon.

 

George Somsel:
You can book a gravesite there?  Devil

 

Yes

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 20 2011 10:02 PM

K.J.:

 I see a new MVP on the horizon.

I seriously doubt that.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 8608
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 21 2011 7:28 AM

fgh:

Thomas Black:
I am curious, are the wall hangings concealing more fresco's or are there plain walls beneath, or perhaps other areas beyond?

I suspect that the "wall hangings" are frescos. Wink

Really?  I thought they were tapestries.  I've just had another look and I seriously can't tell,  They still look like tapestries.  If those are frescos than Michelangelo was even more talented than I thought!  Just an observation.  

Seriously I can't imagine the talent that went into painting all of this...on a scaffold...on your back...day after day.

Truth Is Still Truth Even if You Don't Believe It

Check the Wiki

Warning: Sarcasm is my love language. I may inadvertently express my love to you.

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fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 21 2011 8:48 AM

Thomas Black:
If those are frescos than Michelangelo was even more talented than I thought!

There are lots of older houses in Stockholm and other places where you'd walk in believing you saw marble and mahogany or walnut or something, but all it is is cheap pine wood and some paint. And doors, windows, draperies, statues may well be paint as well. In the old days any decent painter could do it. It was much cheaper than actually using mahogany and so on. And I'm not talking about the artistic kind of painter, I'm talking about the kind that paints your house. If those wall hangings are frescos, I doubt they were made by Michelangelo. More likely by a pupil. He would have had more important things to do.

It's called trompe-l'œil (cheat-the-eye). Have a look at Wikipedia for the real masters (just so you understand: the dome in that first picture doesn't actually exist).

Going there reminded me to look up the Sistine Chapel as well. Yes, they are painted: "The walls are divided into three main tiers. The lower is decorated with frescoed wall hangings in silver and gold." Though it seems that on special occasions there really are real tapestries there, copies of originals by Raphael, depicting the lives of Sts Peter and Paul.

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 21 2011 10:36 AM

Silent Sam Replied: Sat, Feb 19 2011 9:10 PM

 

 

 

Milford Charles Murray:

 

I don't want to get into any theological discussions that in any way abuse the Forum Guidelines.

              But, today I want to share something that I find very beautiful..... 

 

 

 

                                                                              Hmm HHHMMMmmm~~~ Hmm

Why play the catholic card at all?   Why not just offer the gift to anyone who is interested? Why assume that "non catholics" would not appreciate great art? Dredging up a year-old inflammatory thread is not my idea of promoting peace.

 

                                                                                               God Bless

Dear Silent Sam!        *smile*


              And, indeed, Peace to you and Joy in the Lord always!


          Thank you for your post!  *smile*

          Actually, I didn't find it pleasant; but, in retrospect, it is likely good that you posted!  *smile* 

          In retrospect perhaps you do have a valid point.  Perhaps I should have posted differently.  If I had any intimation that this would “flame up,” I most certainly would have.

         I read your post last Saturday evening, have ruminated over it many hours before I now respond.  I have talked to the Lord about it extensively and pondered whether I should even reply.  I have decided to reply, and may God bless my words that go out!

          The point I was trying to make when I sent my original post -– entitled as you know -- A Gift to ALL Catholics -- *smile* -- is that both capital C Catholics and small C catholics have much in common and much to be thankful for in spite of various differences.  I believe that the Holy Spirit can work more harmony between us as together all we Christians face a very dark and difficult world -- as we live here in these eschatological times which for various reasons we call “the last days,” with all the wars and rumours of war and all the other signs of the last times.

           I recognise that there are many serious doctrinal differences between denominations.  For sure!  However, let us at least talk to one another and recognise our "common Christianity," if you will.  I know I should expand further in this area, but my post is long enough without that!  There is a lack of a better description of this point available to my mind at this moment.

 

          This predates St. Peter’s Basilica which was begun in 1506, but not completed until 1626.  One of the things that kicked off the Reformation was Luther saying in his 95 Theses posted on the Castle Church door in Wittenberg on October 31, 1517 --  (my translation) ”Hey!  Let’s talk about those Indulgences for St. Peter’s.  Seems to me that this doesn’t mesh with the teachings of Holy Scripture.  I want to go by Scripture!”

          (Note:  The 95 Theses are available from Logos, last I looked – in English and Latin – for the grand total sum of $ .95 American, 93 cents for Canadian dollars.)

     It was at Rome at that time in 1510 that, supposedly, Luther discovered that “The Just Shall Live by Faith” meant truly that he who is justified by faith shall live.  For Luther that centred on Jesus Christ and Him alone.  Sola Scriptura, Sola Fidei, Sola Gratia!  By Faith alone.  By Grace alone.  Based on the Holy Scriptures alone.  (my translation)  You, yourself, can research the whole story of Luther crawling up the steps meditating and praying at each one and ending up with this earth-shattering conclusion!  That is a study on it's own.

          Sadly The Great Schism (between the Eastern Church and the Western Church had already taken place.  There was in the West only one Church with Rome as headquarters.

          Because of that and for other reasons I feel that in a sense the Sistine Chapel is also important to me as a small “c” catholic.  It is a lot more to me than “great art.”  That’s why I was so excited and wanted to share that Web Site with my Logos Brothers and Sisters.  It really is an incredible web site.
 
          I had appreciated MJ’s post which - in my mind’s eye - I thought had cleared up some misunderstandings that various people have.  Obviously I was wrong!  *smile*

          Wrong Again!  *smile*  It so often happens in my life!  Like Fonzie, I don’t like to admit, “I was wrong!”

          It is interesting to note that Logos Bible Study Magazine “confesses” a version of the Apostles’ Creed in every issue, one line of which reads:  “we believe in the holy catholic church.”  On the other hand, Logos lists its resources available to all - but of special interest to certain denominations - as Catholic, with a capital C.

          Also, having experienced the forgiveness of my sins through the shed Blood of Jesus Christ my Lord and Saviour, I continually praise our Triune God; and delight in the Peace of God that transcends all understanding.  In spite of the difficulties and tears and sorrows of a normal life, His Divine Grace and the Holy Spirit within have given and keep me in Great Joy, if not always happiness.  This Peace of God is so important to me that I truly, from the heart, wish others “Peace!,” even as did the Lord Jesus after His Resurrection and the Apostle Paul in so many references.  And I have always made every effort to share that Peace and wish that Peace to others as I am able. 

          Concluding, some of my feelings are based on Ephesians 4, so very, very important to me!


Ephesians 4TH CHAPTER
                                               Christ’s Gifts to the Church

1      I, a prisoner in the Lord, encourage you to live the kind of life which proves that God has called you.  

2      Be humble and gentle in every way. Be patient with each other and lovingly accept each other.     

3      Through the peace that ties you together, do your best to maintain the unity that the Spirit gives.  

4      There is one body and one Spirit. In the same way you were called to share one hope.  

5 There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism,  

6 one God and Father of all, who is over everything, through everything, and in everything.
    

7 God’s favor has been given to each of us.           (ESV)

         When I posted my original post, I recalled that Martin Luther at the age of 27 was sent to Rome on a pilgrimage and that he was there in 1510 even as Michaelangelo was on the scaffolds working on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel.  It is quite unlikely that they would have let him anywhere near the Sistine Chapel because of the construction activities.  *smile*

          And!  Absolutely finally:  (I wonder how many denominations have this in their hymnal!  Lots, I would think!


The Church's One Foundation


1 The Church’s one foundation     Is Jesus Christ her Lord;
She is His new creation     By water and the Word.
From heav'n He came and sought her     To be His holy bride;
With His own blood He bought her     And for her life He died.

2 Elect from ev'ry nation,     Yet one o’er all the earth,
Her charter of salvation:     One Lord, one faith, one birth.
One holy name she blesses,     Partakes one holy food,
And to one hope she presses,     With ev'ry grace endued.

3 Though with a scornful wonder     This world sees her oppressed,
By schisms rent asunder,     By heresies distressed,
Yet saints their watch are keeping;     Their cry goes up, “How long?”
And soon the night of weeping     Shall be the morn of song.


4 Through toil and tribulation,     And tumult of her war,
She waits the consummation     Of peace forevermore
Till with the vision glorious     Her longing eyes are blest,
And the great church victorious     Shall be the church at rest.


5 Yet she on earth has union     With God, the Three in One,
And mystic sweet communion     With those whose rest is won.
O blessed heav'nly chorus!     Lord, save us by Your grace
That we, like saints before us.     May see You face to face.

Peace to you!                                 And!                                                                             Joy in the Lord always!

 

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 8608
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 21 2011 12:19 PM

fgh:
I doubt they were made by Michelangelo. More likely by a pupil.
 I am aghast with the skill, thank you for that link to Wikipedia.  I stared at many of them trying to fathom that they were hand painted.  

If only you could see my poor capacity to even color with crayons you would comprehend my stupifaction.  

A student you say?  Unfathomable (to me) that any but a complete master could pull it off.  I have much to learn of art it seems.  Next time I'm in chicago I'll have to browse the art museum (provided I can avoid the modern art junk - blah).   

 

Truth Is Still Truth Even if You Don't Believe It

Check the Wiki

Warning: Sarcasm is my love language. I may inadvertently express my love to you.

Posts 8893
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 21 2011 1:25 PM

Thomas Black:
Unfathomable (to me) that any but a complete master could pull it off.

Besides a good eye and a steady hand, it's mainly technical skill, I believe, which is something one would learn during one's studies/apprenticeship. The world is full of technically skilled painters who don't have the creativity or genius to become masters. This is what some of them do to earn a living. In Rome you can (or at least could; I haven't been there for a while) find people who every morning draw a copy of some famous painting on the pavement, and then sit there all day hoping for money. The art version of street musicians. Some of them are very good, at least in my unknowledgeable eyes.

I guess it's a bit like the difference between a systematic theology and the Gospel of John. One is technique and hard work, one is genius.

Thomas Black:
If only you could see my poor capacity to even color with crayons you would comprehend my stupifaction.  

Believe me, I'm no better! I just happen to live in a part of the world where these things are a bit more common than in the US.

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 21 2011 2:11 PM

fgh:
Besides a good eye and a steady hand, it's mainly technical skill, I believe, which is something one would learn during one's studies/apprenticeship. The world is full of technically skilled painters who don't have the creativity or genius to become masters.

A personal side note: my father-in-law was a gifted artist who spent some 40 years living off his art. When he had a stroke in his mid-eighties he retained his skill at drawing but lost his creativity and enjoyment. If made us realize how separate the elements are.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 175
Silent Sam | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 21 2011 6:12 PM

Dear Sweet Milford:

It has been strongly suggested that I apologize to you. Quite frankly, I am not ready to do that. One might assume that I have lost some of the conviction that prompted me to post in the first place. I find it Ironic (if not inspired) that your thoughts turned to Luther. Mine did also..I pondered if he had had a wicked step-mother who threatened to withhold his supper until he apologized... What Would Luther Do? I am convinced that he went to his grave never having apologized for what he believed to be true. I will ,however, make one more stab at explaining my motives.

I never , for a moment, thought it was your intention to be divisive. I understand that the words of M.J. that you quoted are a breath of fresh air to you. That is not the case for everyone. I suspect that they can actually be a bitter pill for some who live on the other side of the fence. I also suspect that on some subconscious level you had an uneasiness about including those words. Otherwise,You would not have made this statement.

 

Milford Charles Murray:

I don't want to get into any theological discussions that in any way abuse the Forum Guidelines.

              But, today I want to share something that I find very beautiful.....    *smile*

Many have found the site inspiring and have returned to thank you for exposing them to it. It is still my conviction that many others may have gone to see if it had not been prefaced by a paragraph that did not serve to quell division...in some cases, quite the opposite. If anyone is to see the "message" beyond the "great art", they must look at it with a peaceful, serene, open mind.

That brings me to my final point...PEACE. There is only one individual who can speak peace into existence. Mark 4:39 the rest of us have to work for it...be willing to challenge error...teach...preach...even endure pain and suffering to see that it occurs.

I know that I can be a thorn in your flesh. I find no great pleasure in being a thorn. I just find myself led to share some thoughts, sometimes. Romans 5:3-6

 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 21 2011 6:21 PM

Silent Sam:
if he had had a wicked step-mother who threatened to withhold his supper until he apologized

Golly, I'm a foster-mother, adoptive mother, birth mother ... but I've missed out on step mother.Sad

Silent Sam:
I suspect that they can actually be a bitter pill for some who live on the other side of the fence.

I was raised as a Campbellite and even in that framework - Restoration "Protestant" can't see the problem nor imagine that my Church of Christ (with music think Standard Publishing flavor) pastor grandpa / elder dad could find a problem. I feel a bit like the McDonald's  Wendy's ad "where's the beef?"

edited: Obviously don't trust my memory on advertisements. Embarrassed

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 21 2011 6:59 PM

MJ. Smith:
I feel a bit like the McDonald's ad "where's the beef?"

Martha, may I? The phrase first came to public attention as a U.S. television commercial for the Wendy's chain of hamburger restaurants in 1984. Cool

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 21 2011 7:00 PM

George Somsel:

Ronald Quick:

George - I had to look up the word "curmugeon".  Never seen it before - I learned something.

 

Not original with me.  I believe MJ first called me that -- possibly offlist.

Also searched for curmudgeon in Logos - found an illustration:

4060 Sincere Flattery? 

 A curmudgeon on British publishing finally decided to retire at age 70. He was given the usual dinner. Associates, joyous at the prospect of his leaving, vied in elaborate praise. When the time came to respond, the old gentleman got up and said, “I had no idea I was held in such esteem. I shall stay on.”

 

Tan, P. L. (1996). Encyclopedia of 7700 Illustrations: Signs of the Times. Garland, TX: Bible Communications, Inc.

Keep Smiling Smile

 

Posts 175
Silent Sam | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 21 2011 7:24 PM

MJ. Smith:
I feel a bit like the McDonald's  Wendy's ad "where's the beef?"

You have provided the analogy that I needed. Not all burgers are created equal. Seldom will a burger chain see it as a compliment if you call their business by another name...even if you spell it with a small m. Wendy's does not wish to dwell under the golden arches, or be associated with the red haired bozo who resides there. The have their own approach/identity, and want to keep it that way.

I do not care to muddle through old threads to find the quote, but I will paraphrase something you said as best I can... "All followers of Christ are catholic, whether they know it or not...or want to accept it." Obviously, some do not accept it. It is not your definitions that are at issue, It is the motive behind putting those definitions forth. The folks who have issues with the capital C Catholic organization, will not want to be told they are catholic...even if you spell it Katholik. Why not let them labor under their belief that they are part of the Body of Christ?...AND QUIT PLAYING WORD GAMES.

                                                                                              God Bless

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 21 2011 7:54 PM

Silent Sam:
I do not care to muddle through old threads to find the quote, but I will paraphrase something you said as best I can... "All followers of Christ are catholic, whether they know it or not...or want to accept it." Obviously, some do not accept it. It is not your definitions that are at issue, It is the motive behind putting those definitions forth. The folks who have issues with the capital C Catholic organization, will not want to be told they are catholic...even if you spell it Katholik. Why not let them labor under their belief that they are part of the Body of Christ?...AND QUIT PLAYING WORD GAMES.

Thanks - I finally understand what you found offensive and understand what level we would have to begin at in order to communicate well with each other.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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