Bad to require credit card for free books/downloads.

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 4 2014 9:04 AM

Peace to all!                                      fgh, Thank You Indeed for an extremely accurate and well-written post which is most-appreciated by me Indeed!

                             *smile*

fgh:

Bruce Brewer:
they refuse to add a modification to their purchase program whereby when you "purchase" a free book the payment window is not opened and no credit card information is recorded.

To the best of my knowledge Logos has never "refused" to do this. They've said they have higher priorities, but they'll get to it in time.

Logos was, until very recently, a very small company and needed all their few developers to work on Logos itself, so, as I understand it, they bought all their administrative, financial, forum, etc software from elsewhere. Hence it was what it was, and just 'adding a modification' may not be as easy as you think.

For one thing they may not have the legal right to modify bought software.

For another, multiple systems tie into each other, and modifying one may require first modifying others. I have a faint memory of a post somewhere where Logos states that if they simply remove the credit card requirement, they won't know how many copies of that book they 'sold', and, naturally, the publisher requires them to be able to account for that. So they can't remove the requirement until they have another system in place that counts exactly how many copies they distribute of each book. And coding that probably requires first fixing something else. And so on. 

Thirdly, this isn't exactly the only thing we and/or they have wanted changed with their administrative and financial software, and it doesn't make sense to waste time and money on superficial modifications if your real intention is to rebuild the whole framework from the bottom up, as it is my impression that it is. We have already seen major results from this rebuild: the website now grays out items that we own, it gives us dynamic pricing, and it keeps track of our credits and lets us apply them even on prepubs. Those improvements are far more important than the one you ask for.

Fourthly, coding costs money, and that money is payed by me and others who buy our resources. Why would I want to pay for you not to have to enter your card number?

Personally, I am constantly surprised over the insistence on this change, and constantly shocked over the rudeness with which it is presented. I want Logos to spend their time and money on fixing what I have already payed for, not on placating people who don't want to pay. If someone offers you a free book, take it and be grateful, or leave it and move on. Insulting and making false accusations against someone who tries to be kind to you isn't very nice.

I'm sorry, but I'm just getting very tired of posts like this, that can't even be civil. To the point that I'm beginning to feel like urging Logos never to change this...

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 10234
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 4 2014 10:09 AM

OK, ST. I'll play (be) dumb. How are you doing that. It's a good idea. We bought a handmade futon in a small villiage near Mt Fuji and used our US cc. Minutes later (literally) our phone rang in Sedona. But that was the card company's software.

I know the cc's have exposure limits but I'd prefer to avoid the issue, given the efficient markets in Nigeria.


Posts 317
Luuk Dondorp | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 4 2014 10:40 AM

H.-J.van der Wal:

Is there any chance that Logos will allow us to use alternative methods of payment, such as PayPal or iDEAL?

iDEAL is dutch. Logos can allow dutch customers to use iDEAL as a payment method. But I assume there are not enough dutch Logos customers to justify the costs to do that.

And for what it is worth: personal info is known on the internet in so many ways due to the social media and so on. You can't hide..the only way is to trash all your computers and use the old pen and paper methods again. And even than there are so many databases....

I trust Logos fully for using my credit card in a good stewardship-like manner. 

Luuk

 

Posts 1837
LogosEmployee
Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 4 2014 11:24 AM

Bruce Brewer:

Logos makes excuses like, "it's okay Bruce we're not going to charge you." or "Logos says, "other sites do it to for their free stuff."

This is pure poppycock. Here is a company (Logos) who makes their living selling computer stuff and claims to be Christian to boot. But they refuse to add a modification to their purchase program whereby when you "purchase" a free book the payment window is not opened and no credit card information is recorded.

Why do they refuse? Slothfulness comes to mind. If they are to continue to maintain they position as a top software company, then they must be on the forefront and not request information on a "free" purchase which is not necessary. I will gladly give my credit card info for a cash purchase, but I will never "buy" a "free" book that requires a credit card.

Logos has no excuse, other than be like the world in all the bad ways, for making this requirement mandatory.

Okay, now Logos will respond with more excuses why they won't modify their program. Excuses, excuses, excuses.....

Bruce, I'm sorry you're frustrated. But this is simply not a reflection of our feelings on the matter. Our commerce system was built to require a credit card. Ever since we've starting do more free transactions, we've wanted to remove the credit card requirement to make it easier for new folks. The only reason we haven't yet is that it's a non-trivial amount of work to do, and we've had to prioritize other things higher. As much as we want to do this, we've prioritized things that serve our paying customers and help us meet our business goals. It's not that we don't care to fix this; it's that time and resources are limited, and we have to be wise stewards and work on the right things first.

All that said, we're currently working on an overhaul of our shopping cart and checkout process, and dropping the credit card requirement is one of the changes that we hope to roll out—hopefully in the next month or two.

I'm sorry it's taken so long for us to get to this. It certainly wasn't for lack of desire. I know it's been a pain point for a number of people, which we hope to solve very soon. Thanks for your patience.

Posts 8601
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 7 2014 8:56 AM

https://www.logos.com/support/lbs/vocabularylists#download

Phil Gons:
one of the changes that we hope to roll out—hopefully in the next month or two.
 <sarcasm="on"> Well that forecast is going to come back to bite you.  </sarcasm> :-)

Truth Is Still Truth Even if You Don't Believe It

Check the Wiki

Warning: Sarcasm is my love language. I may inadvertently express my love to you.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 7 2014 1:22 PM

Denise:
OK, ST. I'll play (be) dumb. How are you doing that. It's a good idea.

I have set up an extra bank account with a VISA debit card. I was given the option to reject all charges that would result in an overdraft. Whenever I am about to make a purchase I transfer money into that account. I handle all my Logos Pre-Pubs with just such an account.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 10234
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 7 2014 1:36 PM

Smart.  

I was reading an article today about prepaid cards becoming 'the thing' often for the same reason.  I think I might do something similar that you describe.  

Thanks!


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Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 7 2014 1:49 PM

Quick solution. Enter the card, purcahse free  book, then delete the card. 

That is what I did for the first pre-publications/purchases that I got. Decided that the company was trust worthy, and have not been let down.

For most maybe all other companies, if I have to enter a card a card for something that is free, I simply decline.

I trust Logos.

Everything ever written in Religion and Theology formatted for Logos Bible Software.Logos Youtube Channel

Posts 4
Jeff | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 21 2014 5:46 PM

I'm sorry, Phil, I agree that is a load of poppycock. I know you are probably just a customer service rep that has to answer questions and you have nothing to do with the site development and such, but your comment, "The only reason we haven't yet is that it's a non-trivial amount of work to do," is just not correct. As a web designer/developer I have built many e-commerce sites and it is not difficult to add a bypass for the credit card. I have done it many times. It is a marketing ploy. Having your credit card saved on the website makes it easier for people to purchase books that they might not have purchased other wise. It's about the $$ and their bottom line. 

I used to like Logos Bible. Then I was required to pay to upgrade to 4 and lost several of my books and features. Now with this credit card nonsense I might go elsewhere. Wordsearch Bible doesn't make you put in a credit card for free stuff. This all just makes me sad. I understand that a company has to make money to survive, but don't make us risk out credit cards to do it. I refuse to put my card out there any more than I have to. It's just not smart. If I were purchasing a product then fine, it is my decision to put my card number out there, but I am not putting it out there for free stuff. 

I wasn't going to post anything but that live I quoted earlier just frustrated me. Just not true. Sorry for my out burst.

Posts 3938
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 21 2014 6:08 PM

fgh:

Bruce Brewer:
they refuse to add a modification to their purchase program whereby when you "purchase" a free book the payment window is not opened and no credit card information is recorded.

To the best of my knowledge Logos has never "refused" to do this. They've said they have higher priorities, but they'll get to it in time.

Logos was, until very recently, a very small company and needed all their few developers to work on Logos itself, so, as I understand it, they bought all their administrative, financial, forum, etc software from elsewhere. Hence it was what it was, and just 'adding a modification' may not be as easy as you think.

For one thing they may not have the legal right to modify bought software.

For another, multiple systems tie into each other, and modifying one may require first modifying others. I have a faint memory of a post somewhere where Logos states that if they simply remove the credit card requirement, they won't know how many copies of that book they 'sold', and, naturally, the publisher requires them to be able to account for that. So they can't remove the requirement until they have another system in place that counts exactly how many copies they distribute of each book. And coding that probably requires first fixing something else. And so on. 

Thirdly, this isn't exactly the only thing we and/or they have wanted changed with their administrative and financial software, and it doesn't make sense to waste time and money on superficial modifications if your real intention is to rebuild the whole framework from the bottom up, as it is my impression that it is. We have already seen major results from this rebuild: the website now grays out items that we own, it gives us dynamic pricing, and it keeps track of our credits and lets us apply them even on prepubs. Those improvements are far more important than the one you ask for.

Fourthly, coding costs money, and that money is payed by me and others who buy our resources. Why would I want to pay for you not to have to enter your card number?

Personally, I am constantly surprised over the insistence on this change, and constantly shocked over the rudeness with which it is presented. I want Logos to spend their time and money on fixing what I have already payed for, not on placating people who don't want to pay. If someone offers you a free book, take it and be grateful, or leave it and move on. Insulting and making false accusations against someone who tries to be kind to you isn't very nice.

I'm sorry, but I'm just getting very tired of posts like this, that can't even be civil. To the point that I'm beginning to feel like urging Logos never to change this...

yes yes yes. This is my sentiment exactly. Seems like hardly a week goes by where this question doesn't come up - and frequently by an individual with 1 or 2 posts. Their approach is bellicose (often as not) and their words loaded with venom.

Its not that I can't relate to wanting my card information safe... I do. I've had bad experiences with Bank of America, with Sprint, Cingular wireless, and a few others... Regions bank took Sprint to task, and recovered the 600$ they withdrew from my account (billed me thrice). Visa sorted Cingular, and I closed my account at Bank of America (it took a surprising six months before everything was really truly closed). So I can understand ones reluctance to give out ones credit card number.

That said, they have had my information for 3 years now, and I've not yet had any glitches. Which is more than I can say for iTunes.

C.S. Lewis once said (Speaking of atheists) that "there is enough light for those who desire to see, and enough darkness for those of a contrary disposition. I think that applies anytime trust is required. Those who will will, and those who wont name call, and post angry rants on forums. Is the free book really worth the emotional investment it took you to write out that post? Really?

L2 lvl4, L3 Scholars, L4 Scholars, L5 Platinum,  L6 Collectors. L7 Baptist Portfolio. L8 Baptist Platinum.

Posts 4
Jeff | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 21 2014 6:10 PM

OK, now I feel guilty for my venting. I do like Logos Bible. IT has many great things going for it. Great search tools and I really like the android version. I don't mean to make it sound like I am accusing Logos of lying, I'm not. I just know website development and marketing. I've been on that side of it. 

In the near future I will be going into missions. I will really be glad when I can open up my computer, tablet or phone and have all of those resources available to me without having lug around a library of books. For this I am very thankful to Logos Bible. I remember doing sermon prep before I go Logos. Hours spent just looking though books for one thing that I can now do in a matter seconds with Logos. It really is a great tool.

Again sorry about the venting.

Posts 3938
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 21 2014 6:26 PM

 

Jeff:

OK, now I feel guilty for my venting. I do like Logos Bible. IT has many great things going for it. Great search tools and I really like the android version. I don't mean to make it sound like I am accusing Logos of lying, I'm not. I just know website development and marketing. I've been on that side of it. 

In the near future I will be going into missions. I will really be glad when I can open up my computer, tablet or phone and have all of those resources available to me without having lug around a library of books. For this I am very thankful to Logos Bible. I remember doing sermon prep before I go Logos. Hours spent just looking though books for one thing that I can now do in a matter seconds with Logos. It really is a great tool.

Again sorry about the venting.



Guilt wasn't my goal.. Sorry if that was the result. I love the product Logos produces enough to have invested several thousand dollars - and when you are in seminary every dollar is precious. Perhaps that makes me a little defensive.  Heading for the missions field my self one day Lord wiling, I can relate to the luxury of not having to lug a library around, and having everything available at the flick of a mouse and push of a button is indeed marvelous.

For what its worth, software engine updates are always free - its the new datasets and added features that cost money. You can upgrade to 5 for free at the moment should you desire (and should you computer be capable) to do so.

L2 lvl4, L3 Scholars, L4 Scholars, L5 Platinum,  L6 Collectors. L7 Baptist Portfolio. L8 Baptist Platinum.

Posts 272
LogosEmployee
Glenn Airoldi (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 24 2014 9:11 AM

Hi All,

A quick thanks for the thoughtful conversation around this topic.  I do want to reiterate what Phil has said earlier, and let you know that the project to update the cart and checkout process is underway.  We've not lost site of it, and we're very much looking forward to rolling out this improved user experience in the near future.  

Posts 4
Jeff | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 24 2014 4:24 PM

@Abandservant

Thank you for your apology but actually didn't read you post untill after I wrote my follow up. I wrote my follow up at the same time you were writing your post, lol. So it wasn't your post that made me feel guilty, it was my own post that did. Thanks anyway though.

Thanks for the tip about the free Logos 5 upgrade, but I am not able to find were it is free. It says I will need to pay over $600. I am not able to do that. If there is a free upgrade I sure would be thankful to know how.

Thanks again

Posts 4
Jeff | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 24 2014 4:27 PM

Thank you for your apology but actually didn't read you post untill after I wrote my follow up. I wrote my follow up at the same time you were writing your post, lol. So it wasn't your post that made me feel guilty, it was my own post that did. Thanks anyway though.

Thanks for the tip about the free Logos 5 upgrade, but I am not able to find were it is free. It says I will need to pay over $600. I am not able to do that. If there is a free upgrade I sure would be thankful to know how.

Posts 999
Mike Pettit | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 24 2014 4:29 PM

Jeff:

Thank you for your apology but actually didn't read you post untill after I wrote my follow up. I wrote my follow up at the same time you were writing your post, lol. So it wasn't your post that made me feel guilty, it was my own post that did. Thanks anyway though.

Thanks for the tip about the free Logos 5 upgrade, but I am not able to find were it is free. It says I will need to pay over $600. I am not able to do that. If there is a free upgrade I sure would be thankful to know how.

Its here https://www.logos.com/installation

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