God will never "tempt" us, but he will "test"us...

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TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 12:01 PM

@David, I believe it was Luther who wrote, "Even the Devil is God's Devil."  I'd search Logos to confirm it but I don't have the works of Luther. Crying

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 12:08 PM

George Somsel:

Schezic:

You are strengthening my point. God did not test Job. He allowed Satan to do it so Job could exhibit his freedom of Choice.

 

1 Kings 22:19–23 (NRSV)

19Then Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, with all the host of heaven standing beside him to the right and to the left of him.  20And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab, so that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ Then one said one thing, and another said another, 21until a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, saying, ‘I will entice him.’  22‘How?’ the Lord asked him. He replied, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ Then the Lord said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do it.’  23So you see, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has decreed disaster for you.”

So, who enticed Ahab?  A lying spirit or the LORD who gave the command?

Yes, George...which is one of the verses I called on in my first post. Also, God did indeed test Job...and He used hasaataan to do it. YHWH IS THE ONE who brought Job's name into the discussion...and he also set the parameters of his testing and torment. Yes, He uses others as tools...but He never concedes ever that He is anything other than SOVEREIGN (the final Word) on all activity that transpires in His creation. A search using LOGOS will support that.

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Schezic | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 12:19 PM

Thomas Black:

@David, I believe it was Luther who wrote, "Even the Devil is God's Devil."  I'd search Logos to confirm it but I don't have the works of Luther. Crying

I think this may be the passage you reference. It is often paraphrased, as in your "quote" Smile

"God uses the devil and the evil angels. They, of course, desire to ruin everything; but God blocks them, unless a well-earned scourging is in order. God allows pestilence, war, or some other plague to come, that we may humble ourselves before him, fear him, hold to him, and call upon him. When God has accomplished these purposes through the scourge, then the good angels come again to perform their office. They bid the devil stop the pestilence, war, and famine. So the devil must serve us with the very thing with which he plans to injure us; for God is such a great Master that he is able to turn even the wickedness of the devil into good."

Martin Luther

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TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 12:29 PM

Thanks Schezic, any chance you could provide the citation for the actual quote?  

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Schezic | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 12:31 PM

All the quotations are taken from the Ewald Plass, What Luther Says, (St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1959), pp. 391-404.

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TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 12:38 PM

Thanks again Schezic,  that's going in my note file.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 12:39 PM

Robert Booth:
But did not God create everything and is in control of everything and knows everything (past,present,future), thus would it not be accurate to state that God manufactured any and all "tests" whether they appear evil or good?

I think we are talking past each other (at least I agree with what I hear you saying.)  I'm trying to avoid diving in the deep end of the theological pool. Although I am not a Calvinist, I do agree with God being in total control and knowing all things past, present, and future. That is why I posted this above:

Matthew C Jones:
I know two dozen Calvinists on these forums that could answer your question if it were not taboo to go off the path in theological pursuits.........

Getting back to the original post: I think a good use of the Logos software in addressing this question is a look at 1 Corinthians 10:13 to determine from the original language if God is the one providing escape along with the temptation (complementary duo both offered by the same Author) or alongside the temptation (contesting it's evil origin: two opposing authors.) Any takers?

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Schezic | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 12:45 PM

Thomas Black:

Thanks again Schezic,  that's going in my note file.

Good. When you look at the original, There is much more than : "The devil is God's devil"

For instance..."God allows pestilence, war, or some other plague to come,"

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Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 1:04 PM

Schezic:

All the quotations are taken from the Ewald Plass, What Luther Says, (St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1959), pp. 391-404.

I wonder where Plass quoted it from.  It's apparently not in the writings included in Concordia/Logos version of the Works of Luther.  (I tried searching for small bits of the quote in case the translation was different).

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Schezic | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 1:10 PM

Did you find "The devil is God's devil" ?

 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 1:20 PM

A search of my library returned 8 hits for the phrase "the Devil is God's Devil" in quotes. All directly attributed to Luther with no footnotes as where Luther said it.

I did find Max Lucado's expounding on Lutzer interesting:

Erwin Lutzer articulates this thought in his book, The Serpent of Paradise:

  The devil is just as much God’s servant in his rebellion as he was in the days of his sweet obedience…. We can’t quote Luther too often: The devil is God’s devil.

  Satan has different roles to play, depending on God’s counsel and purposes. He is pressed into service to do God’s will in the world; he must do the bidding of the Almighty. We must bear in mind that he does have frightful powers, but knowing that those can only be exercised under God’s direction and pleasure gives us hope. Satan is simply not free to wreak havoc on people at will.”


Lucado, M. (1997). The great house of God : A home for your heart (149). Dallas: Word Pub.

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TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 1:26 PM

Thanks Matthew, using Logos I only found it in JI Packer's concise theology (Again without a definitive source) - apparently your library is larger than mine.

 I feel a sudden need to buy more books....Confused

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Schezic | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 1:27 PM

Matthew C Jones:
We must bear in mind that he does have frightful powers, but knowing that those can only be exercised under God’s direction and pleasure gives us hope
 

Heaven Forbid !!! I don't know who the "us" is that he references. I can assure you that I am not part of that group. I find absolutely no comfort in that thought. 

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Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 1:31 PM

Schezic:

Did you find " The devil is God's devil" ?

Not in Luther. (only in Packer's Concise Theology, Milne's The Message of John, and the Reformation Study Bible, for me)

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 1:32 PM

Thomas Black:

Thanks Matthew, using Logos I only found it in JI Packer's concise theology (Again without a definitive source) - apparently your library is larger than mine.

 I feel a sudden need to buy more books....Confused

Don't worry, March Madness is coming soon to a Logos near you!

But how come I didn't get a hit on Packer? I also have the Fortress Press "Basic Writings of Martin Luther" in addition to the Works of Luther. Neither gives me a hit for the quote. Must be a little different wording.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 1:40 PM

Schezic:
Heaven Forbid !!! I don't know who the "us" is that he references. I can assure you that I am not part of that group. I find absolutely no comfort in that thought. 

I think Max was writing that book just for me. I sleep well at night knowing who is with me.

Being the Calminian that I am, I really don't want to agitate either camp

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Schezic | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 1:46 PM

 Matt 12:24-28

 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, "It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons." 25  Knowing their thoughts, he said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand.  26 And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand?  27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges.  28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

 

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 1:54 PM

Schezic:

 Matt 12:24-28

 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, "It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons." 25  Knowing their thoughts, he said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand.  26 And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand?  27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges.  28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Point being?

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 2:03 PM

Schezic:
"Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand.

I agree. A simple survey of demonic activities shows the enemy is quite divided and destroying each other.  Even if Beelzebub's kingdom were not divided, the sovereign God will prevail  has prevailed. No need for me to determine whether my present trials are temptations or a test, so long as I conquer in Jesus. My faith rests in God.

This is a frequent stumbling block for many. "If God us sovereign,"  they ask, "How can He allow evil?"  I would counter with "If some hardship brings me closer to having the character of Christ, how can it be evil?" I think that is the difference between a test and a temptation, regardless of who instigated it.

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Schezic | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 2:05 PM

David Paul:
Point being?

Don't be bull-headed...er ... Ram-headed. Even if you don't agree with me...Ray Charles could see the "Point"

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