God will never "tempt" us, but he will "test"us...

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2011 8:48 PM

MJ. Smith:
I may certainly be wrong - but I don't think Luther said it.

Schezic:
Do you believe the quote from "What Luther Says" is authentic? Is Ewald Plass a credible source?

Schezic:
Andy Taylor and Barney Fiffe.

I will concede Luther is at least credited with saying it. But what does it matter if Martin, Ewald, Ange or Barney said it? The point is well made whether it be "devil" or "ape."  Satan is not going to get one over on God.

(nice avatar there. Schezic.)

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Schezic | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 8 2011 1:34 AM

Why, Thank you Sir.

Not as nice as your star, But it will do until they let me put bullets in my gun. Big Smile

Matthew C Jones:
Satan is not going to get one over on God.

In essence, Satan has "gotten one over on God," If he can dupe us into promoting the myth that God is responsible for the pain and suffering that Satan has caused/contributed to. In the end, God will be proven just. Meanwhile some could be disillusioned by misinformation.

 

 

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Silent Sam | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 8 2011 9:00 AM

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 8 2011 9:23 AM

Schezic:
In essence, Satan has "gotten one over on God,

Many demons probably thought that the day Christ was crucified. The pain & suffering of Christ worked out for good.

Schezic:
promoting the myth that God is responsible for the pain and suffering

I believe God himself initiates some pain & suffering.

“For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.”
Hebrews 12:6-8

No need to blame Satan for all of it.

C. S. Lewis, and a handful of others, address a loving God allowing suffering much better than I ever could. Pain is not always a bad thing. I would still have have two feet if my pain receptors worked as God designed them to.

Schezic:
God will be proven just.
   Who will write the test?

 

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Schezic | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 8 2011 10:00 AM

Matthew C Jones:
C. S. Lewis, and a handful of others, address a loving God allowing suffering much better than I ever could.
 

I have never argued that God did not Allow suffering.

Matthew C Jones:
I believe God himself initiates some pain & suffering.
 

If you find comfort in believing that, More power to you. 

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 8 2011 10:24 AM

Matthew C Jones:

I believe God himself initiates some pain & suffering.

“For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.”
Hebrews 12:6-8

No need to blame Satan for all of it.

Remember Job -- not exactly the patient guy he is frequently portrayed as being.  Everyone tries to say that his suffering is because he has sinned or to test him, etc.  Finally he curses God (by cursing the day of his birth) and challenges God to debate him.  What chutzpah !  What does God say ?  Basically, "You're a fool !  Answer my questions."  And the questions ?  "Were you present at the creation of the universe ?"  "Have you set the rules for the operation of the universe ?"  "How do the seasons take place ?" 

 7Gird your loins like a man;
   I will ask, and you will inform Me.
 8Would you impugn My justice?
   Would you condemn Me that you may be right?
 9Have you an arm like God’s?
   Can you thunder with a voice like His?
10Deck yourself now with grandeur and eminence;
   Clothe yourself in glory and majesty.
11Scatter wide your raging anger;
    See every proud man and bring him low.
12See every proud man and humble him,
    And bring them down where they stand.
13Bury them all in the earth;
    Hide their faces in obscurity.
14Then even I would praise you
    For the triumph your right hand won you.

"OK, know-it-all, can you do better ?"

And Job's response to all of this ? 

Basically, "Oops !  I stepped in it that time."

 

4See, I am of small worth; what can I answer You?

  I clap my hand to my mouth.
5I have spoken once, and will not reply;
  Twice, and will do so no more.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Silent Sam | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 8 2011 10:40 AM

Matthew C Jones:

I believe God himself initiates some pain & suffering.

“For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.”
Hebrews 12:6-8

No need to blame Satan for all of it.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 8 2011 11:18 AM

George Somsel:
Remember Job

Matthew C Jones:
Job 13:15 (Yes, I know. It is bad practice to form theology based on other men's misunderstandings. But Job apparently did not question God's moral superiority in whether or not to "temp" &/or "test."

The subject of this thread is one of those fascinating ideas I like to explore in Bible study. And while it can certainly benefit me to understand better, I am not sure it is worth breaking fellowship over. It is definitely not a "salvation issue."

Schezic:
Matthew C Jones:
I believe God himself initiates some pain & suffering.
If you find comfort in believing that, More power to you.

I do gain a measure of comfort believing my heavenly Father ("Abba",  "Daddy") spanks me when I am naughty rather than the adversary is doing a  successful end-run around my Protector.  Testing, temptation, trials and persecution.........it all works out for good.

 

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 8 2011 11:32 AM

Matthew C Jones:

 

I do gain a measure of comfort believing my heavenly Father ("Abba",  "Daddy") spanks me when I am naughty rather than the adversary is doing  successful end-run around my Protector.  Testing, temptation, trials and persecution.........it all works out for good.

"Abba" is not "Daddy."

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 8 2011 11:54 AM

Matthew C Jones:
I will concede Luther is at least credited with saying it. But what does it matter if Martin, Ewald, Ange or Barney said it?

None whatsoever ... my first post was intended to get the thread out of theology (theodicy); my second (and unnecessary) post was to say "when I say 'where's the beef' I mean 'where's the beef" a.k.a. take me at my word.Cool

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 8 2011 12:59 PM

George Somsel:
"Abba" is not "Daddy."

Please expound George.  I truly welcome it.

If two 5 year olds decide to streak through the church parking lot. I only spank the one that is my son. Both boys would do well to keep an eye out for their own respective "Abba"   Wink

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 8 2011 1:17 PM

Matthew C Jones:

George Somsel:
"Abba" is not "Daddy."

Please expound George.  I truly welcome it.

James Barr wrote an article on this in the Journal of Theological Studies.  See

http://www.supakoo.com/rick/ricoblog/2009/10/09/OnLdquoAbbardquoAsAramaicForLdquoDaddyrdquo.aspx

http://aramaicdesigns.blogspot.com/2009/06/abba-isnt-daddy-traditional-aramaic.html

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 8 2011 1:45 PM

George Somsel:

Matthew C Jones:

George Somsel:
"Abba" is not "Daddy."

Please expound George.  I truly welcome it.

 

James Barr wrote an article on this in the Journal of Theological Studies.  See

http://www.supakoo.com/rick/ricoblog/2009/10/09/OnLdquoAbbardquoAsAramaicForLdquoDaddyrdquo.aspx

http://aramaicdesigns.blogspot.com/2009/06/abba-isnt-daddy-traditional-aramaic.html

Thanks for the links George.

There is something interesting about the inclusion of the Aramaic "Abba" which suggests it means (or connotes) something more than the Greek word "pater" does, since if it meant exactly the same thing, why include the Aramaic at all, or else include Aramaic more often?

The fact that both children and adults used this term, that it is quoted (in Aramaic) in the NT suggests to me that the English word "Dad" may be the best overall translation of "Abba." There's an interesting scene in an old Mash episode where Winchester is talking to Hawkeye and laments that whereas he (Winchester) had a father, Hawkeye had a dad. The difference between 'father' and 'dad' in English is primarily one of connotation (not denotation), and so I think "Dad" captures "Abba" better than "Father" but certainly better than "Daddy" (the "y" ending tending toward the endearing diminutive in English, and the term used rarely by adults toward their fathers).

Anyway, I hate to contribute to a tangent of a thread that was already off-topic. But I couldn't help myself this time.

Please ignore the star. I'm just being a person for now.

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Brad Fry | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 8 2011 1:47 PM

George Somsel:

Matthew C Jones:

George Somsel:
"Abba" is not "Daddy."

Please expound George.  I truly welcome it.

 

James Barr wrote an article on this in the Journal of Theological Studies.  See

http://www.supakoo.com/rick/ricoblog/2009/10/09/OnLdquoAbbardquoAsAramaicForLdquoDaddyrdquo.aspx

http://aramaicdesigns.blogspot.com/2009/06/abba-isnt-daddy-traditional-aramaic.html

Here's where the article can be accessed. It does require a subscription.

http://jts.oxfordjournals.org/content/39/1/28.extract

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 8 2011 2:57 PM

Richard DeRuiter:
and so I think "Dad" captures "Abba" better than "Father" but certainly better than "Daddy" (the "y" ending tending toward the endearing diminutive in English, and the term used rarely by adults toward their fathers).

I'm 51 years of age and it is not uncommon in my father's house for my siblings and I to refer to him as "Daddy."  It is not so much a term from "baby-talk" as it is a term of familiarity (from the same root word for family.) That is what I get from Jesus calling God  "Abba, Father."  Regardless of how old we both become, my daddy is always my daddy.   

I do thank you George even if Rick Brennan's post did not come cross that way to me.

My Logos library has so many hits to shed light on this one it will be a long time before I exhaust this read, Idea   (7541 hits)

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 8 2011 4:32 PM

Matthew C Jones:
My Logos library has so many hits to shed light on this one it will be a long time before I exhaust this read, Idea   (7541 hits)

Basic search of Large Text in Library found fewer results, first result thought provoking => logosres:pstsoul7;ref=Page.p_73;off=539  (included in Leader's Library and Scholar's or higher packages)

Keep Smiling Smile

 

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 8 2011 5:24 PM

Matthew C Jones:
I'm 51 years of age and it is not uncommon in my father's house for my siblings and I to refer to him as "Daddy."

You forced tempted me to join this thread. My 49-year-old daughter still calls me "Daddy", but my 45-year-old son calls me "Dad" and objects when his daughter calls him "Daddy". But my 47-year-old son calls me "Papa", as do all the grandchildren & great-grandchildren. They all call my wife "Granny" (her choice).

What does all this prove about the correct understanding of Abba? Different people use different terms of endearment for their parents. I see Abba as being that term of intimate endearment, whatever your favorite word might be that signifies this.

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Schezic | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 8 2011 5:44 PM

Matthew C Jones:
It is definitely not a "salvation issue.
Matthew C Jones:
I do gain a measure of comfort believing my heavenly Father ("Abba",  "Daddy") spanks me when I am naughty

Matthew; Thank you for being almost as hard headed as I am. What you typed has caused me to do some serious self reflection. Of course, I can see how you think that this is not a salvation issue. Bear with me while I tell you why it almost was for me. My biological father had issues. He had addictions. He was physically and verbally abusive. He neglected my family to the point of starvation. I was less than 6 years old when I plotted to kill him. I am quite a bit older than you. The messages I heard in church during my childhood were very works oriented. Honor thy father and thy mother...or else...and that or else was eternal damnation/hell fire. I existed well into my adult life knowing without a doubt  that I was doomed because I couldn't keep that commandment. I had enough spiritual education to know that God was there. He had not abandoned me, I had abandoned Him. The results of living separated from God (Which is my definition of hell) caused me to eventually face the consequences of my actions. In dealing with my own addictions I started a new spiritual journey that has lead me to a new understanding of God. I Think it is near impossible to build our picture of a Heavenly Father, without comparing Him with our earthly father, (Abba) on some level. The word in Heb 12 is often translated discipline, rather that chasteneth. There is a huge difference between discipline and punishment. Discipline can be accomplished without punishment. Punishment should be the last resort. But that had not been my experience. I suppose in my attempt to build a new picture of God, I may have gone overboard in rejecting anything that reminds me of the scars I have carried into my old age. 

Let me drive home one more point and I will digress. The hardships/trials/tribulations that eventually caused me To reach out to God, were not stumbling blocks that He had placed in my path...But rather the consequences of my decision to live my life separated from Him. He allowed me the freedom to choose a lifestyle that would create those hardships. He knew that was the only way I could be disciplined.

Forgive me if my explanation has been too graphic. You seem sincere in making your point. I just wanted you to know why I was sincere in making mine.

God Bless

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 8 2011 6:43 PM

Schezic:
I suppose in my attempt to build a new picture of God, I may have gone overboard in rejecting anything that reminds me of the scars I have carried into my old age. 

Thank you for that "graphic" explanation. Communication is normally enhanced when we understand each other's background better.

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Robert Holmes | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 8 2011 6:44 PM

"Abba" 

 

ABBA. An Aramaic word, in the emphatic state, meaning ‘father’. The word passed into Hebrew, and occurs frequently in TB, where it is used by a child to its father and also as a style of address to rabbis. The term conveyed both a sense of warm intimacy and also filial respect; but in Jewish circles it has never been a form of address to the Almighty. In the the word occurs 3 times, transliterated into Greek; in each instance it is a vocative, addressed to God, and the Greek equivalent is appended (Mk. 14:36; Rom. 8:15; Gal. 4:6). It appears that the double phrase was common in the Greek-speaking church, where its use may well have been liturgical. (The Lord’s Prayer in its Aramaic form probably began with ’abba.) It appears that it was Jesus who first applied the term to God, and who gave authority to his disciples to do so. Paul sees in its use a symbol of the Christian’s adoption as a son of God and his possession of the Spirit. Bibliography. J. Jeremias, The Central Message of the NT, 1965, pp. 9-30; , Abba, 1966, pp. 1-67; 1, pp. 5.; 5, p. 1006; 1, pp. 614ff.      .

New Testament idem (Lat.), the same author G. Kittel and G. Friedrich (eds.), Theologisches Wörterbuch zum Neuen Testament, 1932-74; E. T. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, ed. G. W. Bromiley, 10 vols., 1964-76 and the following (verses, etc.) C. Brown (ed.), The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, 3 vols., 1975-8 D. F. Payne, B.A., M.A., Academic Registrar, London Bible College Wood, D. R. W. (1996, c1982, c1962). New Bible Dictionary (2). InterVarsity Press.   - Robert

 

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