Was Judas present when Christ instituted Communion?

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 8 2012 7:41 AM

fgh:

MJ. Smith:
If you like Scott Hahn you might find this interesting: http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9109fea1.asp

Are you stealing my line? Big Smile Good thing you did; I've suggested that article so many times it's beginning to feel embarrassing. However, your link doesn't seem to work; try this one instead: http://archive.catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9109fea1.asp.

That's strange since it worked for me, and I read the article.  After you mentioned that her link didn't work, I tried again and it didn't work.  Just now I tried again and her link works.  There must have been a temporary problem.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 67
Ruminator | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 8 2012 11:20 AM

Life is like a game of cards. The hand that is dealt you represents determinism; the way you play it is free will.
Jawaharal Nehru

Posts 376
Dan Sheppard | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 8 2012 7:38 PM

 

If you're truly interested in the Lutheran position on close communion (close as opposed to far), I suggest you peruse this brief pdf file: www.lcms.org/Document.fdoc?src=lcm&id=411

 

1Corinthians 11 is indeed, the place to seek.

Logos has some great commentaries, which cover that area, as well and come from Lutheran publishers.

A low cost version is http://www.logos.com/product/4783/the-peoples-bible-1-corinthians

While the one with more depth and lots of "beef" is http://www.logos.com/product/8175/the-interpretation-of-st-pauls-first-and-second-epistles-to-the-corinthians

 

Posts 846
Eric Weiss | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 8 2012 8:06 PM

I did research for a First Century Passover Haggadah about 25 years ago. While Mishnah Pesahim 10 is a valuable source, it does contain post-first-century elements. FWIW, here is my annotated bibliography:

ANNOTATED BIBLIOGRAPHY

Barclay, William, THE LORD'S SUPPER, Abingdon Press, Nashville, 1967. A short, readable book.

Bloch, Abraham P., THE BIBLICAL AND HISTORICAL BACKGROUND OF THE JEWISH HOLY DAYS, Ktav Publishing House, Inc., New York, 1978. This book gives the best analysis of the evolution of the seder.

Bokser, Baruch M., THE ORIGINS OF THE SEDER: THE PASSOVER RITE AND EARLY RABBINIC JUDAISM, University of California Press, Berkeley, 1984. The author explains how and why the Passover celebration changed after the destruction of the Temple. Extensively analyzes the text of MISHNAH PESAHIM 10, the earliest full description of the post-biblical Passover seder, and other ancient sources.

Dalman, Gustaf, JESUS-JESHUA: STUDIES IN THE GOSPELS, The MacMillan Company, New York, 1929. A helpful book, which also examines the Aramaic behind the gospel tradition.

Daube, David, THE NEW TESTAMENT AND RABBINIC JUDAISM, The Athlone Press, University of London, 1956. Many interesting insights into Jesus's words and actions, obtained by relating them to rabbinical traditions and sayings.

Edersheim, Alfred, THE LIFE AND TIMES OF JESUS THE MESSIAH, Longmans, Green and Company, New York, 1904. A sometimes‑ponderous book, often more homiletical than exegetical or historical, but with lots of information nevertheless.

Edersheim, Alfred, THE TEMPLE, ITS MINISTRY AND SERVICES AS THEY WERE AT THE TIME OF JESUS CHRIST, Bradley & Woodruff, Boston, 1904. A good book, with valuable information on first‑century Jewish religious life. Includes some later elements in its description of the first‑century seder.

Feeley-Harnik, Gillian, THE LORD'S TABLE: EUCHARIST AND PASSOVER IN EARLY CHRISTIANITY, University of Pennsylvania Press, Philadelphia, 1981. Contains a good conjectural description of the first‑century seder.

Foston, Hubert M., THE EVENING OF THE LAST SUPPER: A NEW COMPARISON OF THE RECORDS, W. Heffer & Sons, Ltd., Cambridge, England, 1928. The "new comparison" is an examination of some of the particular words used by the gospel writers, with a view to suggesting a different answer to the question of whether the last supper was a Passover meal. Very difficult, not on account of the subject matter or the argument, but because of the author's literary style.

Freedman, Jacob, POLYCHROME HISTORICAL HAGGADAH FOR PASSOVER, Jacob Freedman Liturgy Research Foundation, Springfield, Massachusetts, 1974. The author uses different colors to show vividly and clearly which portions of the modern seder date to which eras of rabbinical and Jewish history.

Gaster, Theodor Herzl, PASSOVER: ITS HISTORY AND TRADITIONS, Henry Schuman, Inc., New York, 1949. Liberal scholarship. Useful in that it contains a valuable description from a nineteenth‑century work of the Samaritan Passover.

Gavin, Frank, THE JEWISH ANTECEDENTS OF THE CHRISTIAN SACRAMENTS, Ktav Publishing House, Inc., New York, 1969. Some interesting insights.

Goodman, Philip, THE PASSOVER ANTHOLOGY, Jewish Publication Society of America, Philadelphia, 1961. A collection of Passover facts and stories from all ages of Jewish history.

Graves, Robert and Podro, Joshua, THE NAZARENE GOSPEL RESTORED, Doubleday & Company, Inc., Garden City, New York, 1954. A controversial reconstruction of the "authentic" gospel by scholars who reject the Christian interpretation of Jesus. Some interesting and valuable notes.

GREEK-ENGLISH NEW TESTAMENT, Edited by Barbara and Kurt Aland, Johannes Karavidopoulos, Carlo M. Martini, Bruce M. Metzger, Eighth Revised Edition (Greek text: Novum Testamentum Graece, 27th edition), Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft, Stuttgart, 1994.

Grelot, P. and Pierron, J., THE PASCHAL FEAST IN THE BIBLE, Helicon Press, Inc., Baltimore, 1966. One volume in a Catholic study series.

THE HOLY BIBLE, NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION, International Bible Society, East Brunswick, New Jersey, 1973, 1978, 1984. A popular standard Evangelical translation.

Jeremias, Joachim, THE EUCHARISTIC WORDS OF JESUS, Charles Scribner's Sons, New York, 1966. The author firmly believes and persuasively argues that the last supper was a Passover meal. A standard work on the subject by a well‑known scholar.

Kitov, Eliyahu, THE BOOK OF OUR HERITAGE: THE JEWISH YEAR AND ITS DAYS OF SIGNIFICANCE, Feldheim Publishers, New York, 1978. Sets forth and explains clearly and simply the rabbinical teachings on the seder and its elements. Contains a fascinating eyewitness account by a Roman official of the Passover celebration in the days of the second Temple.

Levy, Isaac, A GUIDE TO PASSOVER, Jewish Chronicle Publications, London, 1958. Good, brief description of the evolution of the Passover celebration.

Lipson, Eric-Peter, PASSOVER HAGGADAH: A MESSIANIC CELEBRATION, JFJ Publishing, San Francisco, 1986. Based on the traditional Jewish seder, with New Testament passages and comments.

Maertens, Thierry, A FEAST IN HONOR OF YAHWEH, Fides Publishers, Inc., Notre Dame, Indiana, 1965. Proposes that Jesus, following a different calendar, celebrated his own Passover feast earlier than the Temple priests, in order to show that the feast had been fulfilled in his person.

Marshall, I. Howard, LAST SUPPER AND LORD'S SUPPER, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1980. Explores the relationship of the Lord's supper to the last supper, describes the first‑century seder, and discusses whether the last supper was a Passover meal.

NEW AMERICAN STANDARD BIBLE, The Lockman Foundation, La Habra, California, 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1995. A popular literal Evangelical translation.

THE NEW JERUSALEM BIBLE, Doubleday & Company, Inc., Garden City, New York, 1985. A new revision of THE JERUSALEM BIBLE. Excellent textual and study notes.

THE PASSOVER HAGGADAH, WITH HEBREW AND ENGLISH TRANSLATION ON FACING PAGES, Introduction and Commentary: Based on the Studies of E. D. Goldschmidt, Edited by Nahum N. Glatzer, Schocken Books Inc., New York, 1953, 1969, 1979, 1989. A standard work, with many helpful notes.

PESAHIM: HEBREW‑ENGLISH EDITION OF THE BABYLONIAN TALMUD, Translated into English with notes, glossary and indices by Rabbi Dr. H. Freedman, B.A., Ph.D., under the editorship of Rabbi Dr. I. Epstein, B.A., Ph.D., D.Lit., The Soncino Press, London, 1967 (New Edition). The rabbinical sources on Passover. Very little relates to the first‑century seder.

Raphael, Chaim, A FEAST OF HISTORY: PASSOVER THROUGH THE AGES AS A KEY TO JEWISH EXPERIENCE, WITH A NEW TRANSLATION OF THE HAGGADAH FOR USE AT THE SEDER, Simon and Schuster, New York, 1972. A good historical look at the evolution of the feast, with photographs and illustrations.

Regelson, Abraham, THE HAGGADAH OF PASSOVER, Shulsinger Brothers, New York, 1949. "Introductory Notes and Supplement" by Rabbi Sidney B. Hoenig, 1961. A nicely‑illustrated edition of the traditional haggadah. The notes and supplement contain valuable excerpts from the biblical, rabbinical and historical writings on Passover.

Rosen, Ceil and Moishe, CHRIST IN THE PASSOVER, Moody Press, Chicago, 1978. Moishe Rosen is the founder of Jews for Jesus, and Ceil is his wife. This book compares the biblical, ancient and modern Passover seders, and relates them to Christ.

Schauss, Hayyim, GUIDE TO JEWISH HOLY DAYS: HISTORY AND OBSERVANCE, Schocken Books, New York, 1938. A very readable but cursory examination of the subject.

Segal, Judah Benzion, THE HEBREW PASSOVER FROM THE EARLIEST TIMES TO A.D. 70, Oxford University Press, London, 1963. Liberal scholarship. Difficult reading.

Silver, Arthur M., PASSOVER HAGGADAH: THE COMPLETE SEDER, Menorah Publishing Company, Inc., New York, 1980. Its subtitle is "Step-by-Step Directions, Halakhic References, Reasons, and Sources for the Customs of the Seder," and that's what it contains.

TANAKH, "A NEW TRANSLATION OF THE HOLY SCRIPTURES ACCORDING TO THE TRADITIONAL HEBREW TEXT," The Jewish Publication Society of America, Philadelphia, 1985. "Tanakh" is an acronym for Torah, N'vi‑im and K'tuvim, the three traditional divisions of the Hebrew Scriptures.

Theiss, Norman, "Passover and Eucharist: the Seder for Christian Use," UNA SANCTA, Brooklyn, New York, 1965. A first‑century Passover haggadah. My research shows that some of the sections the author has included are from the post‑Temple era.

Theiss, Norman, "The Same Night in Which He Was Betrayed: a Study of Passover and Eucharist," UNA SANCTA, Volume 23, Number 4. This is the article that accompanies "Passover and Eucharist: the Seder for Christian use," and includes additional notes and references.

Zeitlin, Solomon, SOLOMON ZEITLIN'S STUDIES IN THE EARLY HISTORY OF JUDAISM, Volume I, Ktav Publishing House, Inc., New York, 1973. "The Liturgy of the First Night of Passover" (and the accompanying introduction) describes the development of the seder liturgy and the evolution of its elements. Focuses on the three (or four) sons and questions, and the dipping at the meal (the pesah into the haroset). Also discusses Jesus and the last supper.

Optimistically Egalitarian (Galatians 3:28)

Posts 846
Eric Weiss | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 8 2012 8:16 PM

Joshua G:

David Paul:

The name and pronunciation I use is the Biblical one that was in use at the time Yeishuu'a was alive. Aramaicized?? Dunno, maybe. But it is nonetheless the one that was in use, and the change may well have taken place for some prophetic reason, of which I am not aware. I do believe that His Hebrew name was Y'hohshu`a, but that apparently isn't what he was called. The shorter, post-captivity version, a la Neh. 8, is the name that was common for the many males who were given this same name during the inter-testimental period.

I am 100% Hebrew. Only Hebrews can be saved by definition. But that is getting doctrinal.

The Gospel writers had no problem changing his name into its Greek form.

Nor did Paul or the other NT writers. They also used "kurios" for YHWH and "theos" for ELOHIM and "Christos" for mashiach. It's not that they couldn't transliterate the Hebrew for Jesus' and God's name(s) and titles, etc., if they had wanted to. They apparently didn't want to or need to or saw the need to. And God apparently didn't see the need to ensure that our NT documents conveyed the original Hebrew words and pronunciations, nor did he seem to have a problem with the NT authors using the LXX for ~90%+ of their OT quotations or allusions. In fact, some NT arguments depend on the LXX rendering and reading of the verse, even when it differs in meaning from the Hebrew.

Optimistically Egalitarian (Galatians 3:28)

Posts 846
Eric Weiss | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 8 2012 8:39 PM

Pastor Jesse Blevins:

in marks gospel it does not say that Judas left. in verse 23 it says they all drink from it. Mark does not exclude Judas ; he could have easily.

Mark's version also seems to suggest the presence of others there besides Jesus and the Twelve, for Jesus' response to their query that it would be "one of the Twelve" makes no sense if they were the only ones present. I liked how the movie THE GOSPEL OF JOHN had Mary Magdalene present during John 13-17. Originally she appeared to be just one of the three women serving the men (see 10:51ff. on disc 2 of the DVD), but then she stayed after the others left and joined the table when Jesus began talking about the one who would betray Him.

Optimistically Egalitarian (Galatians 3:28)

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 8 2012 8:46 PM

Eric Weiss:
Mark's version also seems to suggest the presence of others there besides Jesus and the Twelve, for Jesus' response to their query that it would be "one of the Twelve" makes no sense if they were the only ones present. I liked how the movie THE GOSPEL OF JOHN had Mary Magdalene present during John 13-17, IIRC.

Perhaps, but it could also be that "The Twelve" was simply a way to designate the disciples and not specifically detailing a number as opposed to others who may have also been present.  I think it might be reading a bit too much into it.  On the other hand, we are occasionally given indications that there were more accompanying Jesus (not referencing the crowds to whom he preached or those he fed).  There are some references to women who are otherwise unmentioned who seem to have financed the operation.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 8 2012 9:08 PM

Thank you Eric. Would you mind if I preserved it as a Logos Reading List?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 846
Eric Weiss | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 8 2012 9:16 PM

MJ. Smith:

Thank you Eric. Would you mind if I preserved it as a Logos Reading List?

Feel free to use it however you wish. My annotations are brief and I'm not a scholar, but this was my impression of the value (or not) of those resources for my research when I used them. I lived in Washington, D.C., at the time, and looked up just about everything "Passover" at the Library of Congress that I thought might help me (aside from scholarly journals). If I ever get around to putting the Hebrew part of my First-Century Haggadah into SBL unicode I may make it available somehow; I originally used a version of hebrewth.ttf.

 

Optimistically Egalitarian (Galatians 3:28)

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 8 2012 9:17 PM

I'm going back to some earlier posts since this has been knawing at me the whole time.  First you said,

David Paul:
I consider myself a Messianic disciple, though I am not Jewish.

Then later you said,

David Paul:
I am 100% Hebrew. Only Hebrews can be saved by definition. But that is getting doctrinal.

Whether you are using a different definition of "Hebrew" and Jewish" is not my concern.  What seems evident is that you are a nut.  Paul would disagree with you unequivocally,

29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since God is one; and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

Rom 3:29-31

23 and what if he has done so in order to make known the riches of his glory for the objects of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 including us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Rom 9:22-24

And so would "Luke"

 

34 Then Peter began to speak to them: "I truly understand that God shows no partiality, 35 but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.

Acts 10:34-35

And Ignatius

If, then, those who had lived in antiquated practices came to newness of hope, no longer keeping the Sabbath but living in accordance with the Lord’s day, on which our life also arose through him and his death (which some deny), the mystery through which we came to believe, and because of which we patiently endure, in order that we might be found to be disciples of Jesus Christ, our only teacher, (2) how can we possibly live without him, whom even the prophets, who were his disciples in the Spirit, were expecting as their teacher? Because of this he for whom they rightly waited raised them from the dead when he came.

Epistle to the Magnesians 9

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 846
Eric Weiss | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 8 2012 9:26 PM

George Somsel:
Whether you are using a different definition of "Hebrew" and Jewish" is not my concern.  What seems evident is that you are a nut.

Would that be משוגע? Cool

 

Optimistically Egalitarian (Galatians 3:28)

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 8 2012 9:40 PM

Eric Weiss:

George Somsel:
Whether you are using a different definition of "Hebrew" and Jewish" is not my concern.  What seems evident is that you are a nut.

Would that be משוגע? Cool

 

Yes, but without the affectionate connotation.  Weird.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 1497
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 8 2012 11:51 PM

Eric Weiss:

Would that be משוגע? Cool

= a crazy person

Posts 4764
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 9 2012 12:03 AM

Time will tell...

Angel

Posts 4764
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 9 2012 12:18 AM

George Somsel:

I'm going back to some earlier posts since this has been knawing at me the whole time.  First you said,

David Paul:
I consider myself a Messianic disciple, though I am not Jewish.

Then later you said,

David Paul:
I am 100% Hebrew. Only Hebrews can be saved by definition. But that is getting doctrinal.

Whether you are using a different definition of "Hebrew" and Jewish" is not my concern.  What seems evident is that you are a nut.  Paul would disagree with you unequivocally,

29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since God is one; and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

Rom 3:29-31

George (et. al.), you do err, not knowing the Scriptures. Paul wouldn't disagree, because HE DIDN'T DISAGREE...   Rom. 2:28-29

That both backs up my statement and disproves yours, even though that isn't exactly what I meant by my statement. BY DEFINITION only Hebrews will be saved. You may as well argue with oxygen.

Posts 4764
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 9 2012 12:27 AM

Btw, George, there were a few comments of mine you simply dodged with attempts of clever repartee. In response to your use of Tit. 3:10-11, you said accuracy of doctrine was not an issue with regard to whether a person was a heretic. The only criterion was whether a person caused division. My response, citing Lk. 12:51-53, was to ask, "Is Jesus a heretical man?"  By your assertion, He must be...which would bring Paul's condemnation upon Him.

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 9 2012 12:49 AM

David Paul:

Btw, George, there were a few comments of mine you simply dodged with attempts of clever repartee. Is Jesus a "heretical man"? By your assertion, He must be...which would bring Paul's condemnation upon Him.

No, I don't think the gospels present Jesus as being disputatious.  They present him as being rather drawn into disputation by others.  It is repeatedly stated that they were attempting to trap him with their questions.  Even in a case such as that of the Samaritan woman, it is not Jesus who comes out and states that the Samaritans are worshipping in the wrong place, but the woman who presents the dispute between the Samaritans and the Jews regarding the place of worship to be told by Jesus that worship is a matter of the heart and not of locale.  This sounds to me like a totally non-confrontational answer.  He even tells those who are being sued to come to agreement with their accusers before they come to court. 

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 4764
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 9 2012 1:01 AM

Eric Weiss:

Joshua G:

The Gospel writers had no problem changing his name into its Greek form.

Nor did Paul or the other NT writers. They also used "kurios" for YHWH and "theos" for ELOHIM and "Christos" for mashiach. It's not that they couldn't transliterate the Hebrew for Jesus' and God's name(s) and titles, etc., if they had wanted to. They apparently didn't want to or need to or saw the need to. And God apparently didn't see the need to ensure that our NT documents conveyed the original Hebrew words and pronunciations, nor did he seem to have a problem with the NT authors using the LXX for ~90%+ of their OT quotations or allusions. In fact, some NT arguments depend on the LXX rendering and reading of the verse, even when it differs in meaning from the Hebrew.

And you don't find anything slightly strange about that? I suppose Yeishuu`a taking part in a patently unbiblical series of activities that were concocted by the very group that He openly and vehemently condemned for ignoring and twisting and adding to and taking away from Scripture is of no consequence for you? The one and only group which He consigned to the second death of eternal destruction???

I never cease to be amazed by an apparent lack of discernment that exists when discussing NT issues, such that most folks who adopt a "cultural period background perspective" for the purpose of determining what Jesus did or may have done unfailingly appeal to Judasim. The cognitive dissonance is staggering. Attempting to establish what Yeishuu`a did by examining what the Jews did, and in particular the practices of the Pharisee rabbis, is to deny the entire context of Scripture. Virtually the entire saga of the Bible depicts the failure of Israel and Judah to do what they were given to do. That this problem continued unabated into the time of Messiah's walk is attested throughout the gospel accounts. He never ceases to excoriate the Jewish leaders for not keeping Tohraah according to YHWH's word. Virtually everything they did was "off-script". JUDAISM IS NOT AND NEVER WAS THE RELIGION OF THE OT!

Judaism was an intertestimental fabrication by which the Pharisee party, who had no legitimate claim to authority other than their admittedly legitimate dissatisfaction with the Hasmoneans (who in response to this theo-political challenge themselves established the Sadducee party) concocted a program that was designed to wrest authority for themselves in the eyes of the populace. The idea of Oral Tohraah, which has not a shred of historical or textual proof, was developed so that the Pharisees could effectively "cut out" the corrupt (in their minds and in truth) Hasmonean/Sadducee contingent, who also just happened to be...the PRIESTS. The Pharisees backed up their challenge by appeal to the Oral Tohraah fiction. The problem with the Oral Tohraah is that by the explicit definition found in THE WRITTEN TOHRAAH it is an adulterated LIE (Deut. 4:2, Deut. 12:32).

To examine Judaism and its practices for signs of Yeishuu`a's possible behavior is like searching through squares for evidence of circles.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 9 2012 1:05 AM

A reading list has been created which includes Eric's bibliography. Thanks.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1497
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 9 2012 1:05 AM

David Paul:

George (et. al.), you do err, not knowing the Scriptures. Paul wouldn't disagree, because HE DIDN'T DISAGREE...   Rom. 2:28-29

That both backs up my statement and disproves yours, even though that isn't exactly what I meant by my statement. BY DEFINITION only Hebrews will be saved. You may as well argue with oxygen.

“These verses [vv. 25–29] must be kept in their context, which is that Paul is dealing with Jews and making a distinction between Jews who believe and Jews who do not believe. He is not teaching that every Gentile Christian is a spiritual Jew. Rather, he is teaching that every Jew is not a full Jew. A completed Jew is one who has had both circumcisions, the circumcision of the flesh, which is outward in obedience to the Abrahamic covenant, and an inward circumcision of the heart as an act of obedience to the new covenant.”

Tom Constable, Tom Constable's Expository Notes on the Bible (Galaxie Software, 2003), Romans 2:28.

 

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