The Cloud

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Posts 32
Richard Stimson | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 2 2009 5:53 PM

I am not so worried about privacy but about not lossing my notes.  T-mobile just loss all the information they had in the "Cloud."  I guess the point of the cloud computing is to keep everything on the web, including the progroams, not just the notes and resources. 

Posts 2778
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 2 2009 5:55 PM

I agree that security is important, and pertaining to security, Russ offered some good suggestions in another post.  But John regarding the specific item I quoted,  do you agree with Russ that using the cloud is not "Christian" or do you need more time to think about that one?  

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

Posts 605
John Fugh, Jr. | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 2 2009 6:01 PM

Joe Miller:
I agree that security is important, and pertaining to security, Russ offered some good suggestions in another post.  But John regarding the specific item I quoted,  do you agree with Russ that using the cloud is not "Christian" or do you need more time to think about that one?  

 

No, I don't agree with Russ.  I cannot see the soteriological connection between salvation and cloud computing.  ;)

 

Posts 502
Randall Hartman | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 2 2009 6:01 PM

Doesn't the Bible say something about a "great cloud of witnesses?" Big Smile

Sorry.  Couldn't resist.

Posts 25370
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 2 2009 6:07 PM

RussWhite:

1. Don't ever remove a book I own. IE, if I own it, and it's on my hard drive, make it so it can never be removed, that it's always possible to have local books which can be run locally, and not touched, or even possibly seen, by "the cloud."

2. Explain what the deletion policy is once something has been "hidden." Is it really deleted? Or is it just on some backup someplace?

Logos have stated they will not arbitrarily remove resources eg. deliberate (by user) or unintended deletion will result in a "missing" resource. Their design intent is no missing resources, so a replacement will be downloaded. 

When you "hide" a resource it is deleted from the local Resources folder but the cloud knows not to provide a replacement until you unhide it. You can view all hidden resources in Program Settings. There is no reason to store it elsewhere on the local computer when it is always on their server!

The remaining possibility is that the licence is altered so that I no longer own a resource(s). Logos have stated this is not likely to occur and this is an untested scenario ie. I don't know if the resource(s) would be removed after the new licence was downloaded, or what access I would have.

Logos will provide an email backup of the licence on request, but I'm not sure how that can be used locally.

If you want local books that cannot be seen and touched by the "cloud" then you have to run L3, where you can arbitrarily delete resources and use any licence that you backed up!

RussWhite:
3. How much information is Logos drawing from my system?

You can choose Anonymous or None in Program Settings. If similar to L3 it relates to usage patterns for features that affect future development. 

RussWhite:
4. How much information can third party players gather from my use of Logos because it's on "the cloud?"

I don't have an answer for that if you choose the (default) setting of All.   I use Anonymous, irrespective of any Privacy policy.

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 1694
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 2 2009 6:16 PM

Russ, 

Thanks for bringing up these points. They're legitimate concerns, and I share many of them, particularly in regards to business and financial information.

Some of the beta testers have already accurately given our position: we let you run offline, we are privately held with no intentions of selling, and your data is all stored locally. (In some ways it's "safer", because we use the cloud to sync your data to your machine; we don't store it exclusively in the cloud like some web sites. So the more machines you have, the more backups you have independent of our servers.)

We do have a secure system. (Though not perfect -- nothing is.) I can say this with confidence because our volume of credit card transactions forces us to comply with PCI Security Standards (https://www.pcisecuritystandards.org/), and we've audited our systems, conformed to their rules, etc. I'm wearing an employee photo ID right now as a result of their requirements. (So no one can pose as Logos employee, sneak in, and sit down at a terminal to steal your credit card number. Or sermon.)

But even more importantly, this is Bible study, not banking. We took the decision to sync your content to the cloud very seriously, but in the end we decided that since the vast majority of our customers use our software to prepare sermons that they then aim to preach in public to as many people as they can get to show up at the church, it's not a life / career / finances destroying problem if we are ever hacked. (And we're probably not that interesting a target to hack! The only thing of value to an outsider is the credit card numbers, and, alas, pastors' credit card numbers don't have the larger limits they should!)

I know there are people doing Bible study in closed countries, or taking notes regarding confidential counseling situations. We do take privacy seriously, and keep those things in mind. But if you're in a place where the fact you're doing Bible study is life threatening, you probably shouldn't use an Internet connected app like ours, whether it stores your notes in the cloud or not. And if there's something that confidential in your counseling notes, don't store those things in our software.

(Also, don't store passwords or credit card numbers in Logos notes, or as tags on your books in the Library. :-) )

Again, I'm not trying to trivialize the concern, but simply to illustrate that we thought of it, and that we aren't encouraging you to store anything we'd consider truly confidential within our system.

 

Posts 2699
DominicM | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 2 2009 6:27 PM

RichardStimson:

I am not so worried about privacy but about not lossing my notes.  T-mobile just loss all the information they had in the "Cloud."  I guess the point of the cloud computing is to keep everything on the web, including the progroams, not just the notes and resources. 

 

Although L4 uses the cloud to seamlessly syncronise between machines, it is also kept local, if logos cloud failed we still have local copies of everything in the cloud.thing,

No risk of losing anything, except we delete, and then the sync server (cloud) gets updated, L4 is not cloud in traditional sense

 

Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 2 2009 7:15 PM

Damian, thanks for the answers... Those were/are helpful. I hope Logos seriously looks into the problems with "the cloud" if they continue moving in this direction. The problem is always in the unintended consequences--they never smack you in the face like you might want them to.

I know folks here think I'm a kook--I'm fine with that. I've been called worse, trust me. :-) In reply, I'll just quote John Loeffler  in a bit of a tongue in cheek joke--"your failure to be informed does not make me a whacko."

For those who wonder about my moral stance, I think we all have to struggle with what we do for a living, and with what we buy, and who we buy from--I can seriously say I struggle with what I see going on, and from time to time, even with what I work on. I've even been known to take some unpopular positions in specific cases (imagine that!).

Russ
(for those who might be interested: http://www.riw.us)

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 2 2009 7:28 PM

Bob:

Thanks for the answers--again, very helpful. What always concerns me, as I've said elsewhere, are the unintended consequences and the confluence of information. I live in the world of EEFIs, PCI, and all sorts of other nice acronyms, even if it's not my "primary" job. I especially feel for you on the PCI front. *sigh*

Anyway, I'm not trying to be a wet noodle, just trying to ask questions, understand, and possibly offer up suggestions, or concerns. I'm not about to dump Logos, or dump my credit card info into Logo, either one.

Thanks again.

Russ

Posts 2212
Damian McGrath | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 2 2009 7:42 PM

RussWhite:

Damian, thanks for the answers... 

Russ, you're welcome.

Just as Bob took seriously your questions, so did I. They are legitimate concerns and deserve answers (see also Dave Hooton's reply above).

Be assured, that in Beta testing, many questions were posed and many challenges thrown down and Bob responded graciously to them all. While I do not agree with all decisions that have been made (esp. the failure to implement each and every one of my 50 plus suggestions Smile), Bob is more than capable of responding to any concerns you may have.

Posts 687
Jon | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 2 2009 7:57 PM

RussWhite:
As Logos goes down this road, it is committing everyone who uses this software to a specific worldview--a worldview many people would argue is not Christian (including me).

I wouldn't pass judgement too quickly given your website's emphasis on weapons...

Posts 2778
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 2 2009 8:59 PM

Randy Hartman:

Doesn't the Bible say something about a "great cloud of witnesses?" Big Smile

Sorry.  Couldn't resist.

Very true LOL... you had me laughing for some time :-)

 

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 2 2009 9:18 PM

RussWhite:
but if you sat in meetings with DHS and various classified military groups, and discussed "the cloud" as I have, you would experience a serious eye opening.

 

Your concern is legitimate. I am slightly more concerned with our military switching from Ada to Windows NT. If we aren't fataly compromised there we can expect the cloud to be used for social control. But Logos isn't going to do much more than red flag the Christians. If we have any public witness at all, "they" already know who we are.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 36
Matthew Friend | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 2 2009 9:38 PM

Thank you for the information Bob.

I  just purchased the Upgrade Platinum set today (with the payment plan...).

Because I have invested a significant amount of money in Logos, my only concern with Logos 4 is if something happens in the future (hopefully it never will) that would result in the company going out of business or being unreachable (which means we would not be able to install or use the software locally).  I also work in IT and tend to reformat my hard drive and reinstall programs all the time. With version 3 we could install the software using our license file.

I guess this is an issue with a lot of software today (such as software that requires activation to install it. ).

Posts 2212
Damian McGrath | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 2 2009 9:44 PM

Matthew Friend:

Because I have invested a significant amount of money in Logos, my only concern with Logos 4 is if something happens in the future (hopefully it never will) that would result in the company going out of business or being unreachable (which means we would not be able to install or use the software locally).  I also work in IT and tend to reformat my hard drive and reinstall programs all the time. With version 3 we could install the software using our license file.

I guess this is an issue with a lot of software today (such as software that requires activation to install it. ).

Matthew,

You will be able to receive an activation key upon request. This will allow you to install the program without internet access (and without the existence of Logos).

Posts 786
JRS | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 2 2009 10:04 PM

Frank Sauer:

As one of the beta testers and someone who had an IT background I was and still am anti cloud. However it is a business decision that will allow Logos to save a good amount of resources on the Customer Service and Technical Support end of their model..

"While he was saying this, a cloud formed and began to overshadow them; and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. "

I was a Beta tester and expressed some of these same reservations, BUT, here is the way I finally resolved the issue in my own thinking ...

1) As long as I can maintain a suitable local backup, I should not have to worry about losing any resources. 

2) As long as the executables run from my machine and not from the cloud, I should not have to worry about the server being down.

3) So what if my content is transferred to the cloud?  As long as I have a local copy/backup, it is no big deal.  So what if someone somehow obtains some of my material?  I rejoice if they do!

4) If someone were to run L4 and casually assumed, "Hey, I am always backed up via the cloud ... I got no worries!"  Then they should be worried.  Again, local backups are always smart.

5) At some point, I have to trust Bob&Co to be good stewards of all that is entrusted to them.  Granted, the barbarians could storm the Logos servers as they sweep across America seeking to stomp out Christianity, but if they were to do so, well, we would have bigger problems than just losing our content, licenses, indexing, etc., wouldn't we?  [well maybe not ... I would be expecting to hear a Trumpet around about then - hopefully sooner!  Wink]

In all of my dealings with Logos and the Pritchetts, I have never found, nor heard of, any reason not to trust their Christain behavior and attitude toward their customers.  I will grant you that if Logos were ever to be sold ... well, we will just have to cross that bridge when and if that day comes.

6) Bob stated at least once in the beta period that the current Logos Tech Support/Cust Service costs are running over $1kk.  I believe he also stated that a very large portion of those costs revolve around answering very basic, often repeated, simple questions dealing with licenses, setup, etc.    If the cloud can bring those costs down and if those monies can be redirected, then I am all for it since it will help to maintain the fiscal viability of the company into the future.

Bottom Line for me: Yes the cloud has potential drawbacks, but I think plusses outweigh them.  I am very reticent to follow anyone else into the cloud, but I WILL follow Logos.  As to any theological/soteriological/ethical ramifications about the cloud, I am sorry but I am just not seeing that part of the argument.

How blessed is the one whom Thou dost choose, and bring near to Thee(Psa 65:4a)

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2009 3:43 AM

Joe Miller:
Next you will be telling us that "The Cloud" is really the 666 mark of the beast.

Uh...Joe...you mean it's NOT the mark of the beast?

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2009 3:46 AM

John Fugh, Jr.:
It is not safe.  I don't care if I only have notes or sermons on my computer - my information should be secure and what I purchase should not be dependent on the Internet.

 

So am I to assume that you never downloaded a book from the Logos site ever before?

You never "sync'd" your licenses in V3? Big Smile

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 569
J. Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 29 2009 12:13 PM

I found this interesting

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2009/12/29/year-tech-review/?test=faces

2009: The Year in Tech

"Most Helpful Reminder That Technology Is Far From Perfect
The buzzword of the year may be cloud computing -- the notion that we'll all dispense with storing software and data on our computers in favor of using Web-based services that put everything on the Internet. But 2009 was rife with instances of Web services failing in spectacular fashion. Google's Gmail suffered multiple extended outages; users of T-Mobile Sidekick phones lost access to their information for days and were told -- incorrectly, as it turned out -- that it might be gone forever. So much for the notion that the cloud is always a more reliable repository for our stuff than an old-fashioned PC."

Posts 198
Bryan Brodess | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 29 2009 12:23 PM

Joe Miller:

RussWhite:
As Logos goes down this road, it is committing everyone who uses this software to a specific worldview--a worldview many people would argue is not Christian (including me).
Seriously, the use of the internet is not "Christian"?  But doing IT for a living is?  Are you for real?  I see why you are in IT and not a theologian.  Give me a break.  Next you will be telling us that "The Cloud" is really the 666 mark of the beast.  Devil

Actually I think the cloud is the false prophet,, which points to the beast and lets him know all we are doing so we can not hide..!!Stick out tongue

 

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