Custom lectionaries ok?

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Don Awalt | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Nov 3 2009 3:34 AM

If a person has developed their own lectionary (ie using the XML file format that is documented), does this work fine in Logos 4?

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Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2009 3:40 AM

I have not gotten it work and have yet to get an answer on this during beta testing.  The new Lectionaries are "real" Logos4 books, so probably they will have to be converted somehow, but I really do not know.

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

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TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2009 5:46 AM

If I had to level a guess, I'd say that this is going to be post 2nd quarter of 2010.  It may indeed come in with the updated PBB functionality.  But it's only a guess.

Like you Kenneth, I asked questions about timeliness and other XML files during beta but strangly those were never answered....  Is it time for tinfoil hats?

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Stephen Egge | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2009 7:33 PM

Here Here ... this "lacting feature" is enough for me to keep on using Libronix 3.0

The Catholic lectionary furnished with 4.0 (yes I upgraded) has ONLY sunday lectionaries ... It sure is hard to keep up / promote / develop a habit of daily lectionary reading when it occurs only on one out of seven days ... I thought 4.0 was supposed to help you get into the bibleSmile

Steve Egge

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2009 7:51 PM

I noted the same thing - also that the responsorial psalm has been omitted. The RCL has a daily version as well now so the oversight is even more significant. In that user generated timelines are a "wait for it" feature, I fear that lectionaries are in the same boat.

It also appears that the lectionary/ordo connection is too tight.  I can find a way to access the votive readings.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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LogosEmployee

Thomas Black:

Like you Kenneth, I asked questions about timeliness and other XML files during beta but strangly those were never answered....  Is it time for tinfoil hats?

I assume you mean timelines? Smile

Bob wrote (http://community.logos.com/forums/p/1804/13898.aspx#13898):

In a post 4.0 release; they'll move to a "compile" model like PBB, because we'll index them with your other user-created content.

As for user-created lectionaries: I'm not sure what the plan for those is in future updates to 4.0, sorry. In 4.0, lectionaries are actually Logos resources, not just XML files, which makes supporting the existing files a little hard than it was in LDLS3.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 3 2009 10:32 PM

Bradley Grainger:
In a post 4.0 release; they'll move to a "compile" model like PBB, because we'll index them with your other user-created content.

While I'm not privy to the details, somewhere back in the last 2 days of the forum, I think Bob P. assured me that some type of user-supplied lectionaries will be supported. If not, I promise to clog LOGOS email with Excel spread sheets full of lectionary entries ... including everything I think should be included. I'm actually working on the Jewish cycle of readings now - current practice is find but the primary Pericope scholars' site has a notation I'm still trying to puzzle out.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Don Awalt | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 3:45 AM

Well that's unfortunate.  That's a huge disadvantage for ver 4, I use the lectionary to drive my Bible reading, and the Logos version is inadequate. Consider me on the sidelines re: upgrade to version 4.

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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 9:02 AM

Don Awalt:
If a person has developed their own lectionary (ie using the XML file format that is documented), does this work fine in Logos 4?

Do you use a custom lectionary, or simply one we don't have in the system?

If it's a standard lectionary and you send it to us, and it doesn't have rights issues, we can add it to the system. Support for your own editable lectionaries will come in the future.

Posts 1599
Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 9:44 AM

Bob, the BCP Daily lectionary I created and distributed via the old newsgroups is from the Book of Common Prayer of the Episcopal Church USA, and by their canon law is freely reproducable.  (II.3.6.b.2 - it was copyrighted, but copyright was relinquished upon adoption)

They understandably request that users acknowledge the source, but you can use it as you like.  In fact, that is why I produced the xml version.  I am Lutheran, but our derived version of that does not have the same blanket permission.

Now, of course, if you wish to produce a complete Book of Common Prayer, I am sure many of us wouldn't mind.

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

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Don Awalt | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 4:52 PM

I use a custom one I produced. It's a Catholic daily and Sunday, I wrote software to scrape the USCCB web site for verse numbers to build it. It includes vestment colors, options and all seasons, and includes things like multiple gospel readings on Palm Sunday, and variations on readings for Charistmas and Easter Vigil vs. Sunday masses plus other options.There are no copyright issues with this version as I take no text from anyone.

The Logos Catholic lectionary has some other issues, for example it does not include Psalm readings which are part of the Mass.

Second, for example Ascension Sunday,  there are two sets of readings for which the reader picks the appropriate one for their diocese, as some parts of the country celebrate the Seventh Sunday of Easter, and other parts (most actually) celebrate Ascension this Sunday. The Logos Catholic lectionary does not have Sunday Ascension readings. This is because the bishops have the authority to change feast days in their own diocese.

Mine needs to be updated about 4 times a year, as the lectionary defies any algorithm, I can figure out with a normal liturgical calendar, saint feasts which override, and variations of days like Ash Wednesday, Easter, Triduum, etc.  I could probably do a year-version of one without too much effort though, it's just easier to web-scrape and generate the file 4x a year.

I sent a copy of mine to Phil Gons a while ago (around May of this year), we were discussing my project before Logos came out with the Sunday Catholic version. I was interested in converting it to a binary non-XML version like the Logos lectionaries. In fact, I sent him a follow-up this morning asking whether anything existed to convert the lectionary to ver 4 format, I would be happy to play around and test/verify it.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 8:11 PM

Don Awalt:
as the lectionary defies any algorithm, I can figure out with a normal liturgical calendar, saint feasts which override, and variations of days like Ash Wednesday, Easter, Triduum, etc. 

I strongly believe that the lectionary data should be accessible by liturgical day name AND that the software should not attempt to provide anything but the basic calendar. To explain the problem: Start with the Roman Lectionary --> adjust for America --> adjust for West Coast --> adjust for Seattle Archidiocese --> adjust for Domincan parish --> adjust for collision of adjustments ...

Therefore for each lectionary Logos carries (Jewish or Christian) I think that Logos should simply show both possibilities - Liturgical year and sanctoral cycle and let the user determine what applies to them. I also would like to have the votive readings available via query even though they are never shown in the calendar.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Damian McGrath | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 9:10 PM

Agree with Martha on all points

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Fr. Nicklaus Winker | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 9:50 PM

I would like to just say I would really appreciate a full Catholic Lectionary. I was a little disappointed to see that it only included Sundays. I further disagree that the lectionary defies any algorithm, it is just a complex algorithm at times.

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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 9:59 PM

I confess -- we don't have lectionary experts on staff. We have some employees who go to churches that follow the lectionary, but I don't think we have anyone who understands at Martha's level.

In Logos 4, lectionaries are books in which the Bible references are "replacable" with the text of the passage:

Title of Day

Whatever I want

More text: <John 3:1-10>

Another label: <Gen 1-2>

The software then replaces the references in <> with the text of the passage. And instead of trying to implement algorithms to get the right day/reading/etc., this time we just built a book with entries a few years into the future.

We can pretty easily build more lectionaries if we get data in a similar format. If you want to provide some, that would be fantastic. Or if you'd like to help us understand it better, providing web links or being available for a phone call would be helpful.

Thanks!

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Damian McGrath | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 10:07 PM

Phil also has my email from when I developed a daily Catholic Lectionary for v3.   

I'm happy to help - and with a few of us we can produce variants for different countries.

I will do whatever is needed to help build a fully functional lectionary.

Posts 2212
Damian McGrath | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 10:12 PM

Information which I sent to Phil when creating my lectionary in September 08:

 

A few difficulties with the Catholic Lectionary:

  • It has 3 years of Sundays and 2 years of Weekday readings - so there are six possible permutations (A1,A2,B1,B2,C1,C2). I haven't started on the weekdays in ordinary time yet, these use the same Gospel but different first readings and psalms (I'd love to be able to use the Year-id for this).
  • The Lectionary in use in the USA is slightly different from the Lectionary used in the rest of the English speaking world. I'm an Aussie, so I'm actually using the rest-of-the-world one. The differences are minor and can be easily changed, consisting of slight differences in where pericopae start and end.
  • Each country has different Calendars - This is not surprising, Australia Day is not a public holiday in the US and Thanksgiving is not a holiday here. We also remember different saints (St Patrick is the Patron of Australia). These differences are also easily tracked.
  • The Catholic Calendar is mighty complicated - with a complex ranking system! I'm grateful to universalis.com for one version (though not 100% correct). 
  • A web-page listing the General Calendar followed by national calendars is:http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Roman-Catholic-calendar-of-saints.  I know that it's right for Australia - can't verify the USA one. 
  • Some countries celebrate Epiphany and Ascension on Sundays. Some dioceses in the US celebrate Ascension on a Sunday and some celebrate it on the traditional Thursday.
  • Occasionally, instead of a psalm, we recite a canticle. It would be good to have this option in the reading types.
  • On feast days, practice varies whether one uses the prayers and readings of the saint or the prayers of the saint and the readings of the day (eg Monday of the 3rd Week in Ordinary Time - Year I). It is necessary in the calendar to offer both sets.
  • There are occasions (such as the last 7 days of Advent), when the prayers related to particular saints may be said but the readings are never to be used. I can find no way to list the title of the saint and the <description> tag without also including a set of readings. Not an insurmountable problem but a bit deceptive.
  • I'm not sure of the value of the "dawn" "day" "evening" set-ids. These don't actually show up anywhere on the lectionary viewer.
  • I'd love for the <title> to be in bold. It disappears on the page more than a bit. The date is BIG and BOLD - the actual celebration is a bit hard to find.
  • When there are two sets of readings, thre is no space between them in the Lectionary viewer - it looks very crowded.

 

I don't know if this ever got anywhere as I never received a response

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 4 2009 10:39 PM

Thanks for your input Damian. I think that Logos may have headed the correct direction by treating lectionaries as a book. That means that one can find the entries through a search ... this allows for finding entries that apply in specific locales or for particular order without making the calendar try to handle them. I think this is an excellent choice - to try to handle the calendar beyond the basics is too complex to be cost effective. I say that even knowing that there are some reasonably decent shareware "solutions".

I intend to send Logos the Jewish reading cycle soon - my schedule has been more hectic than I intended. I'm working on it because the reading cycle for the Torah also represents the early Biblical divisions (prior to chapter-verse). I also want to see if I can get the named Torah readings into the topic db with web references.

If you work the Catholic side, I'll try to push on some of the others.

One additional item I want to push is the recognition of the readings of the lectionaries as pericopes in pericope comparisons etc.

I do think that most of the problems with the L3 lectionary have been addressed - but we'll verify with actual data.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 20
Stephen Egge | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 6 2009 8:33 AM

Here is my temporary solution.....

Create a link on your "desktop"  to http://www.usccb.org/nab/today.shtml for the united states catholic lectionary. (go to the link in IE and then drag the "url icon" to your desktop to make a link)

Then drag the desktop link to the toolbar in Libronix 4.0.

Not an elegant solution ... but it works. I'm still hoping for an upgrade of the Catholic Lectionary (currently Sunday only) to include the daily catholic lectionary that is on par with what is on the USCCB site.  Having the "Sunday only" version just reminds me of its shortcomings

Steve

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Damian McGrath | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 6 2009 8:45 AM

MJ. Smith:

... to try to handle the calendar beyond the basics is too complex to be cost effective. I say that even knowing that there are some reasonably decent shareware "solutions".

 

We have a dedicated liturgical program in Australia with all prayers and readings for each day (and sanctoral cycle readily accessible). Sadly, it comes with a version of another bible program which I uninstall. It also produces perfectly dreadful handouts :)

The real benefit is that we get the Jerusalem Bible texts as well as the CEV (used for the children's lectionary).

I tried suggesting that they changed over to Logos as the partner for the bible side (this program is enormous in Oz / NZ with hundreds / thousands of parishes using it) but was met with the telephone equivalent of a blank stare.

 

MJ. Smith:

I do think that most of the problems with the L3 lectionary have been addressed - but we'll verify with actual data.

I'm not so sure that all the issues I raised have been addressed. Then, there is the question of who is providing the proofing. On November 1st we were offered the readings for the 31st Sunday in Ordinary Time and not the readings for All Saints. 

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