Paper verses Logos

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Jason Kanz | Forum Activity | Posted: Sat, Jun 11 2011 3:27 AM

I realize that I am writing to a biased crowd, but I would be eager to hear people's thoughts on that advantages and disadvantages of doing daily quiet times/devotions (not in depth study) on Logos verses using a paper Bible. 

Paper advantages:

1) A sound sense of tradition and connection with the church fathers who studied and preached from an actual Bible

2) As you become familiar with your Bible, you begin to remember where things are on a page (spatial location), which aids in finding them later.

3) Cost.

Logos advantages:

1) Can adjust the font size

2) Automatic link to all of your resources to follow up on a difficult passage or word, if you wish.

3) Doesn't become tattered with use.

4) You paid for it, so you might as well use it. Wink

I would also be curious for people to share whether they use Logos for devotions, or if they still use a regular Bible.  I still use a paper Bible for devotions, an ESV Study Bible.  I don't see myself switching any time soon, but I am curious to hear what others have to say.

Posts 13413
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 11 2011 3:46 AM

Logos advantages: 5) I always have it with me (on my iPhone). That's a major plus for devotions for me.

I'm not sure (1) under advantages is strictly accurate. The earliest Fathers would have used scrolls. Although books (codices) were around in the first century their use was far from widespread, and they did not take over entirely until the sixth century. It took a while for the technology to catch on and become affordable Smile.

Posts 1032
Mike Pettit | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 11 2011 4:40 AM

The major (perhaps only) advantage of paper is that it is easier to read, it would be interesting to see how much this is due to our years of practice with books or how much of a real advanatge it is, but for me it is much easier to pick up a book than look at a computer.

This is why Logos's move to tablet readers is so important, it addreses (perhaps imperfectly) the one practical problem there is with Logos. Apart from that the crossreferencing, searching and sheer accessability of Logos cannot be equalled on paper.

The only other problem is is that we are at the mercy of Logos continuing to trade for us to enjoy our expensive investment. It does concern me that Logos is based on a business model that constantly requires expanison in order for existing customers to enjoy what they have purchased (servers do not pay for themselves.)

  

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 11 2011 4:45 AM

Paper:

Computers have too many distractions. I often find myself thinking about checking my email or ...ahhh hummm...the Logos Forum when on my computer.

 

Ebook Reader:

Because, for whatever reason, I don't like paper. I can't explain it but ebook reader is now my preference.

 

Posts 1142
Juanita | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 11 2011 4:49 AM

Jason Kanz:
doing daily quiet times/devotions (not in depth study) on Logos verses using a paper Bible. 

Not in depth study, so, I would say paper for me, hands down.  No startup time, no technology to deal with, no conflict on planes and in offices that post "no electronic devices permitted".   I control the book, no switches, no buttons.  Simplicity.  This is my opinion and I'm sticking with it!  Stick out tongue

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 11 2011 5:14 AM

Jason Kanz:
Logos advantages:

6) Notes, when they finally work correctly on L4 Mac. (I numbered this as 6 because Mark Barnes already took 5).

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 11 2011 6:01 AM

Jason - 

I believe that there can be advantages to a paper Bible which may not be apparent at first. There is something special about "holding" the Word of God. Since my MacBook & iPad are used for other purposes, it does not have the same tactile response for me. I do caution, however, that we do not worship a book (made of paper), but the Word of God made flesh. Also, it is much more important to actually READ the Bible rather than just HOLD it. This later reason has caused me to move my devotional reading to a digital format. My "Bible" is now always with me.

Justin

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Posts 43
Jason Kanz | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 11 2011 6:06 AM

alabama24:

I do caution, however, that we do not worship a book (made of paper), but the Word of God made flesh. Also, it is much more important to actually READ the Bible rather than just HOLD it.

Justin

Justin,

I think this is a wise and very important caution.  I still prefer paper, mostly because I remember where things are on the page, which I believe allows God's word to be more effectively written on my heart.  I am not opposed in the future, however, to considering a switch to digital format for devotional reading.

Posts 2455
Ronald Quick | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 11 2011 7:32 AM

What I do for my devotions is read the Bible (paper) next to my computer.  I like using my paper Bible as it helps me learn and remember where a passage is found because I know that I will not always have the convenience of being at my computer.

I have Logos opened at the same time and will reference a commentary for further clarification if needed, but what I find most helpful is taking notes that are color coded for "general thoughts", "further study" and "personal application".  (I do my further study at a later time to keep my devotional time separate from my study time.   This set up works so well for me that I miss not being able to take notes when I am reading away from the computer.  When I find myself in this situation, I write my notes on a paper and then transfer them to Logos later.

Posts 325
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 11 2011 7:42 AM

For me Logos allows me to maintain a goodly sized collection of theological works with a minimum of space.  The power of the search and analysis function is probably as good as it gets for this generation of e-book library search engines.  There appears to be several problems with this form of information storage technology including: a) lack of access to theological sources that are "suspect"...prior restraint of theological views, b) ability to change what is said in those resources from the publisher...restraint of content is so desired, and c) privacy issues based on a supposed ability to "trust business" in their profit seeking models.  Personally a book is easier to find, keep, cheaper to use, and maintains my privacy in a much more explicit way..but that is just me.

Posts 7881
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 11 2011 8:39 AM

Personally, I still like holding my NT with Psalms and Proverbs, but I definitely like Logos and will probably make a full switch to it once I get my iPad 2 or maybe iPad 3.  As for start up time is concerned, that's not really an issue, you usually do other things before actually getting your Bible and start reading.  I can start up my laptop or iPad while I'm doing those things (e.g. shower, brush teeth, make coffee. etc.) and then jump right into my devotional.  I'm doing a devotional study on Isaiah and it's been very enlightening.  

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 11 2011 9:35 AM

Rene - 

I found your post interesting. This is one of those questions that does not have a "right answer." I was confused by some of your post, however. You wrote: "There appears to be several problems with this form of information storage technology including..."

Rene Atchley:

a) lack of access to theological sources that are "suspect"

Do you mean that Logos does not offer particular resources which may offend others (i.e. they are "suspect")? Which ones did you have in mind? It seems to me that Logos has a fairly broad catalogue of materials.

Rene Atchley:

b) ability to change what is said in those resources from the publisher

How can you change what is written in a printed book? It seems to me that Logos provides as many or more ways to make personal changes through notes, highlights, etc. 

Rene Atchley:
 

c) privacy issues based on a supposed ability to "trust business" in their profit seeking models.

What privacy issues are you talking about and what does this have to do with "profit seeking models?" In life, any interaction you have with another will involve trust. In a way, it is easier for me to trust Logos because I believe they will continue to develop and improve their product, because they want to make money. It is good that Logos hires employees, which they could not do without "profits." 

The Church is built upon volunteers. I believe my role as pastor is to "train and equip the saints" for ministry. Despite my high view of laity, I know and understand that the "profit motive" is a good tool to get some things done which would not be accomplished otherwise. By the way, Logos would be able to give us resources much less expensively if those "greedy authors" didn't need to eat. Smile

Rene Atchley:

a book is easier to find, keep

Your office / library must be much cleaner than mine! Big Smile

 

 

 

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Posts 19140
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 11 2011 9:56 AM

Jason Kanz:
I still prefer paper, mostly because I remember where things are on the page, which I believe allows God's word to be more effectively written on my heart.

I have long ago given up familiarity with where things were on the page. I've had so many editions of my preferred translation, the NIV (now TNIV), that things keep shifting around for me in the print edition anyway. I had the 1984 edition for many years and knew where things were in that. Then I began using the tiny pocket editions -- had one by my bed, one in my car, one in the bathroom beside the toilet -- and got to know where things were in that. But now I'm at an age where I can't see the print in those tiny ones very well anymore, and I switched to TNIV anyway, so forget about knowing where things are on the page. That made it easier for me to switch to reading the text on screen in Logos for devotional reasons. I still do use my print based TNIV as well, but it's six of one, half a dozen of the other to me now.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 11 2011 10:13 AM

Jack Caviness:

Jason Kanz:
Logos advantages:

6) Notes, when they finally work correctly on L4 Mac. (I numbered this as 6 because Mark Barnes already took 5).

7) Read Aloud for Bible text (see Rom 10:7 in search results)

8) Bible Search to find verses (then can click verse to read context, can be bit faster than flipping paper pages):

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 2455
Ronald Quick | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 11 2011 10:38 AM

Rosie Perera:
I have long ago given up familiarity with where things were on the page.

I would like to be able to remember an actual verse instead of (for example) bottom right hand page second column.

Posts 1875
Alan Macgregor | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 11 2011 11:30 AM

Mark Barnes:
I'm not sure (1) under advantages is strictly accurate. The earliest Fathers would have used scrolls.

In addition it is demonstrably true that the Biblical writers and the earliest church fathers would have done a lot from memory. Cf. many examples where quotations of the OT are inaccurate and citations are missing. Actually, few of the early fathers actually cite their sources at all.

**********************

In response to the original question I use a paper bible ESV Journaling Bible for by daily chapter and my iPad for reading my through the Bible in a Year, as part of my daily quiet time.

But there is nothing to compare to the feel, smell and sight of my leather-bound NIV Study Bible. Just taking it off the shelf and opening it is so evocative!  Big Smile

Every blessing

Alan

iMac Retina 5K, 27": 3.6GHz 8-Core Intel Core i9; 16GB RAM;MacOS 10.15.5; 1TB SSD; Logos 8

MacBook Air 13.3": 1.8GHz; 4GB RAM; MacOS 10.13.6; 256GB SSD; Logos 8

iPad Pro 32GB WiFi iOS 13.5.1

iPhone 8+ 64GB iOS 13.5.1

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Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 11 2011 11:45 AM

Well when I read and study, I do have my paper Bible with me for at least the following reason:

  1. I am familiar with where what I am studying is on my printed page for location recognition in counseling situations
  2. I can see more context to the verse and more quickly skim on the page than i can on the screen (as the screen real estate is taken for other purposes)
  3. Even though I have no problem with the screen, it is sometimes nice to meditate staring at a piece of paper.

Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org

Posts 325
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 11 2011 11:45 AM

alabama24:

Rene - 

I found your post interesting. This is one of those questions that does not have a "right answer." I was confused by some of your post, however. You wrote: "There appears to be several problems with this form of information storage technology including..."

Rene Atchley:

a) lack of access to theological sources that are "suspect"

Do you mean that Logos does not offer particular resources which may offend others (i.e. they are "suspect")? Which ones did you have in mind? It seems to me that Logos has a fairly broad catalogue of materials.

Rene Atchley:

b) ability to change what is said in those resources from the publisher

How can you change what is written in a printed book? It seems to me that Logos provides as many or more ways to make personal changes through notes, highlights, etc. 

Rene Atchley:
 

c) privacy issues based on a supposed ability to "trust business" in their profit seeking models.

What privacy issues are you talking about and what does this have to do with "profit seeking models?" In life, any interaction you have with another will involve trust. In a way, it is easier for me to trust Logos because I believe they will continue to develop and improve their product, because they want to make money. It is good that Logos hires employees, which they could not do without "profits." 

The Church is built upon volunteers. I believe my role as pastor is to "train and equip the saints" for ministry. Despite my high view of laity, I know and understand that the "profit motive" is a good tool to get some things done which would not be accomplished otherwise. By the way, Logos would be able to give us resources much less expensively if those "greedy authors" didn't need to eat. Smile

Rene Atchley:

a book is easier to find, keep

Your office / library must be much cleaner than mine! Big Smile

 

Well Alabama than you for your positive feedback.  In a word yes I find that Logos, while famous for their "wide range of perspectives", have improved over the years there is still several gaps in their theological spectrum that have been explored in several threads.  This issue to my mind has not been a problem until Logos has (or is) becoming the de facto standard of theological e-book programs in the market place.  This exclusivity to my mind places a heavier weight on their shoulders to make sure the whole tradition of Christian theological reflection is embraced.  Imagine what would of  happened if the Medieval monks decided that the Greek philosophers just weren't important enough to keep records of during the Dark Ages...same dynamic different market imo. 

How does one change what is written in a book?  Well that seems strange to me since books are on the way out as a technology and we are increasingly becoming dependent on fewer and fewer suppliers of information as evidenced in the collapse of the Christian e-book market.  Therefore as the technological transition from one form of written expression to another is achieved, and the outlets of e-books is consolidated, the ability to "change reality" is increasingly easy to achieve by simply leaving out "offensive" information or unpopular or low market demand works.  While I have in no way any idea that such a thing has happened the potential for remaking reality is easier if the information is literally nothing on a screen that can be changed at will from a central location...it's in the Clouds.

Finally the obvious point to being on this site is that we are consuming and using a product that just happens to be "christian" in its orientation.  After watching the several break ins into large companies like Sony, who became the victims of hackers, it would seem obvious to me that information in both the cloud and "voluntary" information sent to Logos is in fact secure in a relative way...until it is hacked.  Which has also been explored in detail over several threads since release of Logos 4.  On the other side of the success coin is the possibility that our "christian information" will remain secure if Logos, with all of its success, is bought by another player in the e-book market....of course for profit. 

Indeed my desk is cleaner because of Logos. Yes I have more resources now than at any other time in my life in regards to Christian works.  Logos appears to be a substantial company that generally can be relied on to a) provide a good product and b) advertise me to death while using the product.  I am simply saying the world we live in, and likely to live in, is (ironically) much more secure and predictable using a book instead of the next wave of technology.

 

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 11 2011 12:15 PM

Rene - 

It is my belief that the larger Logos gets, the more diversified it will become (which brings both advantages and disadvantages). For example, if you examine some of the larger evangelical publishing companies, they have become more diverse as they have grown. A small publishing company can't afford to make any of their constituents mad. Zondervan can.

I think I misunderstood your original post. Were you saying that you are worried that the new technology allows for others to "purify" the work of others? In a sense this is true. However, it is also much easier to get ones message out into the public domain.

What "christian information" are you worried about being secure? I can understand being worried about stolen credit card information. I would also be concerned about putting confidential prayer requests "in the cloud." Is there something I am missing? Even if Logos got hacked, I am not worried about my notes becoming public.

Rene Atchley:

I am simply saying the world we live in, and likely to live in, is (ironically) much more secure and predictable using a book instead of the next wave of technology.

The funny thing about your view (which has some merit) is that some could (and probably did) make similar arguments with the advent of Gutenberg's Press. When the people were able to read the Scriptures for themselves, the Church was no longer the sole interpreter of the text. 

I hope you know my banter with you is good hearted. I like to "see" how others think about things.

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Posts 325
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 11 2011 12:30 PM

I read no flame or troll in our banter Alabama. Indeed as the thing called Logos grows it will embrace more and more diversity of 19th and 18th centuries works while ignoring seminal 20th century thematic theological views of much more consequence...all of which produces a safe diversity that offends no one in the market place.  This is the process of purification that is so often demanded in the cyber world from many and various theological forums wanting a "safe" christian experience of those who post there.  The market demands what it already wants and has because it is a safe bet...i.e. see new Hollywood movies.  These are indeed gross generalization that will no doubt generate many who can swear with a straight face that their web site, theological software, denomination, forum, worldview...etc....is the rule instead of my own generalization based on my experience in cyber space.  Of course opposition to the revolution are nothing but Luddites of the highest order...if we can only recall who the Luddites were...which is my point anyway.

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