NIV disappointment

I purchased scholars in March and updated to Platinum this spring. I didn't realize that the NIV84 would not be included. I think this is a mistake on Logos's part. I am very glad to have the new version, and prefer it to the NIV84. However, it will be many years before the new version supersedes the NIV84 in the "pews."

This afternoon I realized that this will be a problem for me in the future. I just graduated in May, and am looking for a pastorate, so this has not been an issue for me yet. However, I was investigating a translation issue in Philippians 2:4 that Ben Witherington brought to my attention in his blog. I noticed that the NIV2011 had the better translation over my primary study translation (ESV).

The problem is that I must be able to compare the NIV2011 text with the NIV84. I can't get up and say "the NIV says" without knowing what both translations use. In this case the translation that most of the congregation is likely to have (NIV84) says something significantly different than the NIV2011. As it is, I must go to some other website to check this out. This should be available to me in Logos. I certainly paid enough for that ability.

I am very disappointed that the NIV84 was not included in my package. This was not my understanding when I purchased Logos. What makes it worse, I don't think the NIV84 is available any longer.

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Comments

Brian Huddleston

It appears that the NIV84 is still being offered, just not as part of a package. I agree that it would be nice to have in the packages offered, and feel for those who upgraded after the change.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/264551#Comment_264551

Brian - Thanks for the link. How did you find it? It did not come up for me when I searched for "NIV" or "NIV84."

David Paul

I can well understand publishers not wanting to continue printing older versions of any title they publish. But when it comes to e-titles, it seems rather thoughtless. Especially when dealing with titles like Bibles. People are still clamoring from the original Geneva and 1611 texts. It only makes sense that some folks would wish to have older Bible versions for reasons such as comparison, study, research, and the like. Besides, this is a title they literally took off the virtual shelves. Seems like they could wait until interest evaporated...it's not like they need the warehouse space.

But we are talking about publishers, here--don't hold your breath while waiting for them to respond to your legitimate and necessary desire.

Brian Huddleston

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/264552#Comment_264552

I searched for NIV and the 2011 edition was at the top followed by several commentaries. The Resource Types -> Bibles filter had 8 hits, so I clicked on that to find the NIV84. I would have thought it would be near the top of the results, but it was buried a bit.

Paul Gisbourne

I have no recollection over when the NIV2011 was updated in Logos, and as I purchased my copy of Logos last year I have both the 2011 and 84 editions of the NIV, so am unable to share in your dissapointment.

Just had a look at the Logos packages and noticed that in the footnote for the NIV bible it does say "This is the 2011 edition of the New Internation Version".

I suppose you could argue that Logos could make this clearer, maybe put something like "NIV (2011 Edition)" with a footnote explaining that the NIV84 edition is no longer available.

I wonder if the reason behind it is because of the NIV is only now available in the 2011 edition.... if the publishers have pulled the rights for the NIV84 then Logos will be unable to distribute it, won't they???

The problem is that I must be able to compare the NIV2011 text with the NIV84. I can't get up and say "the NIV says" without knowing what both translations use. In this case the translation that most of the congregation is likely to have (NIV84) says something significantly different than the NIV2011. As it is, I must go to some other website to check this out. This should be available to me in Logos. I certainly paid enough for that ability.

I assume from your comment that you don't have a printed copy of the NIV84, if you do can you not just use that to check what the text says. When I preach to different congregations I preach from the translation that they are using, even though my primary study text is the ESV, so I have printed copies of NIV, KJV, NKJV, NLT, ESV, though majority of the churches I visit, and my own church use the NIV. Even though I use Logos for my study and sermon preparation there are still times when I find myself reaching for my printed bible, whether that be NIV or ESV, to check a reference.

Not ideal, but an option none the less.

Blessings [:)]

Paul Gisbourne

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/264558#Comment_264558

Great spot Brian..... well done.

Garrett Ho

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/264559#Comment_264559

From my understanding, the (LE) packages had NIV84, while the (KF) packages have the NIV11. This change took place at the beginning of the year (January).

Ronald Quick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/264559#Comment_264559

I believe that the switch occurred around January 2011. If you purchased NIV84 before NIV 2011 was released then you would still have access to both, if not then you just have access to the latest release. This is a decision the publisher has made - not Logos.

You may try to contact the publisher to see if they will release NIV84 for individual purchase. I did this with the NASB because I wanted the 1977 release and they allowed Logos to sell it again. (I'm sure I was not the driving force behind the change - just one of many voices).

Hope this helps.

Matthew C Jones

I purchased scholars in March and updated to Platinum this spring. I didn't realize that the NIV84 would not be included. I think this is a mistake on Logos's part. I am very glad to have the new version, and prefer it to the NIV84. However, it will be many years before the new version supersedes the NIV84 in the "pews."

It is my understanding the publisher required Logos to replace the NIV1984 with the NIV2011. Those who had the older (LE) edition packages got to keep their '84 copy and received the new edition for free. The new (KF) base packages may only include the NIV2011 edition.

I could be wrong because it was also my understanding the NIV1984 edition would no longer be available for purchase. To see it on the website is nice because I like that one better. Every point raised here about the popularity and easy distribution of a digital version make a lot of sense.

Ted Hans

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/264563#Comment_264563

You may try to contact the publisher to see if they will release NIV84 for individual purchase.

See here, it is still available http://www.logos.com/product/8786/new-international-version

Jerry M

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/264566#Comment_264566

For what it is worth NIV84 includes a New Testament reverse interlinear. They are still working on the OT.

Ronald Quick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/264566#Comment_264566

You may try to contact the publisher to see if they will release NIV84 for individual purchase.

See here, it is still available http://www.logos.com/product/8786/new-international-version

I was wrong again...just don't tell my wife. I'm trying (unsuccessfully) to convince her I am perfect.

Terry Cook

However, I was investigating a translation issue in Philippians 2:4 that Ben Witherington brought to my attention in his blog. I noticed that the NIV2011 had the better translation over my primary study translation (ESV).

I've looked carefully at each translation and I can't see a nickels worth of difference. The Greek text cannot be precisely, 100% translated into perfect, understandable English and I think either of the two is an acceptable translation of the N/A27 Greek text. Having said this, I'm hopefull you'll be kind enough to share wat Witherington's issue is.

Terry Cook

sDg

Mathew Voth

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/264600#Comment_264600

Pretty sure he is refering to this blog posting: http://www.patheos.com/community/bibleandculture/2011/06/27/words-that-make-a-difference-tapeinoo/

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/264603#Comment_264603

Pretty sure he is refering to this blog posting: http://www.patheos.com/community/bibleandculture/2011/06/27/words-that-make-a-difference-tapeinoo/

Matthew -

Actually It was today's blog. The link is below.

I've looked carefully at each translation and I can't see a nickels worth of difference... I'm hopefull you'll be kind enough to share wat Witherington's issue is.

Terry -

I won't quote his whole post... you can follow the link and read it yourself. It is part of a book review. To give you a greater context

What I don’t agree with is the misquoting of Phil. 2 as if it says “thinking not only of your own concerns but also of the concerns of others”. In fact that is not what the Greek says— it says ‘thinking not of your own concerns but instead of the concerns of others’. Paul is calling for real self-sacrifice, not enlightened self concern plus compassion for others. There is a difference. Dickson is right however that humility is far more about how I treat others than about how I feel about myself.

There is a clear distinction between the two translations:

The NIV84 says: "Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others."

The NIV2011 says: "not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others."

The older translation implies that you should look both to your own interests as well as that of others. The second translation says you should NOT look to your own interests, but rather to the interests of others.

I am not qualified to make a determination on which view is correct. I will hyperlink some commentaries so you can see more about the arguments from both sides. My point is actually not which view is correct, but rather as a pastor, I will need to know what my congregants are reading in their bibles! Because I don't have the NIV84, I can't do that (without going outside of Logos).

Word Biblical Commentary

Baker Exegetical Commentary

NIGNT

NET Bible Notes

http://www.patheos.com/community/bibleandculture/2011/06/29/humilitas-john-dicksons-reflections-part-one-get-low/

Terry Cook

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/264603#Comment_264603

Pretty sure he is refering to this blog posting: http://www.patheos.com/community/bibleandculture/2011/06/27/words-that-make-a-difference-tapeinoo/

Phil 2:4 is not mentioned in this blog posting.

Terry Cook

sDg

Terry Cook

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/264613#Comment_264613

Pretty sure he is refering to this blog posting: http://www.patheos.com/community/bibleandculture/2011/06/27/words-that-make-a-difference-tapeinoo/

Matthew -

Actually It was today's blog. The link is below.

I've looked carefully at each translation and I can't see a nickels worth of difference... I'm hopefull you'll be kind enough to share wat Witherington's issue is.

Terry -

I won't quote his whole post... you can follow the link and read it yourself. It is part of a book review. To give you a greater context

What I don’t agree with is the misquoting of Phil. 2 as if it says “thinking not only of your own concerns but also of the concerns of others”. In fact that is not what the Greek says— it says ‘thinking not of your own concerns but instead of the concerns of others’. Paul is calling for real self-sacrifice, not enlightened self concern plus compassion for others. There is a difference. Dickson is right however that humility is far more about how I treat others than about how I feel about myself.

There is a clear distinction between the two translations:

The NIV84 says: "Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others."

The NIV2011 says: "not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others."

The older translation implies that you should look both to your own interests as well as that of others. The second translation says you should NOT look to your own interests, but rather to the interests of others.

I am not qualified to make a determination on which view is correct. I will hyperlink some commentaries so you can see more about the arguments from both sides. My point is actually not which view is correct, but rather as a pastor, I will need to know what my congregants are reading in their bibles! Because I don't have the NIV84, I can't do that (without going outside of Logos).

Apparently I did NOT look closely at the two translations! I compared the ESV (instead of the NIV2011) which is nearly identical to the NIV84. Since I haven't come across Witherington's post regarding this exact verse I can't say what his complaint is. It's clear the '84 and '11 passages are different. The NET Bible and the NRSV Bible is more like the '11 translation and Holman puts "only" in brackets. The word only is where the problem lies. Only (monon) in not explicity in the text.To this Bockmuehl says: "Paul’s point is... a genuinely unselfish investment of ourselves for the good of other people. Grammatically, it is significant to note the absence of monon (‘only’) from the negative clause: Paul exhorts the Philippians to look out not [rather than ‘not only’] for your own rights. In the absence of monon, alla kai properly serves to denote ‘contrastive emphasis’ (Louw & Nida 1989: §91.11), meaning ‘but actually’ or ‘but rather’—not ‘but also’ (cf. similarly LXX Ezra 2:15; Job 21:17; Isa. 39:4; 48:6; Ezek. 18:11; Wisd. 14:22)." Bockmuehl, M. (1997). Black's New Testament commentary: The Epistle to the Philippians (113). Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers.

The issue is complicated. Verse 4 is part of one very long conditional sentence beginning with the word εἴ in verse 1.

4 μὴ (negative; "μή negates the participle and hence the entire verbal phrase, not its object alone" Porter, S. E. (1999). Idioms of the Greek New Testament (282). Sheffield: JSOT.) τὰ (definite article neuter, plural, accusative; may be functioning as a direct object; no immediate object - is there a referent?) ἑαυτῶν (pronoun, reflexive, second person, masculine, plural, genitive: of yourselves) ἕκαστος (subject; pronoun, demonstrative, masculine, singular, nominative: each) σκοποῦντες (participle, present, active, masculine, plural, nominative: keep a watchful eye on, give attention to) ἀλλὰ (conjunction: but) [καὶ] τὰ (definite article neuter, plural, accusative; may be functioning as a direct object; no immediate object - is there a referent?) ἑτέρων (pronoun, demonstrative, masculine, plural, genitive; of others) ἕκαστοι (pronoun, demonstrative, masculine, plural, nominative: each, everyone).

Rough literal Greek translation: - not the [things] of yourselves each one being concerned about but also the [things] of others -

Verse 4 is part of an extended apodosis that includes verses 2, 3 and 4. The protasis (subordinate clause; vs. 1) ἵνα (vs. 2) introduces the imperatival clauses.

Πληρώσατέ (second person, plural, aorist, active, imperative; to make full, to complete) from verse 2 is the main verb.

There is an elliptical participle (σκοποῦντες) with the phrase τὰ ἑτέρων as its object in 2:4b.

There are no exact parallels in the Pauline corpus to Philippians 2:4, however, see: (1Co 10:24, 13:5; Ga 6:2; Ro 14:7; 15:2; Phil 2:1)

Other relevant passage: For everyone looks out for his own interests, not those of Jesus Christ. (Php 2:21).

Paul is explaining how humility can be expressed as he exhorts his readers not to keep to look out for number one but to look to those things which are for the good of others.

"Paul is not asking his readers to forsake their own interests altogether, but rather to not limit their concern to theirs alone. The emphasis of the verse is placed on the point, insuring that the counterintuitive “valuing of other people” receives primary attention. The statement “Look out for your own interests and the interests of others” implies that the two interests are of equal importance. With selfishness naturally inclining us to look out for our own interests, the rhetorical use of the point/counterpoint set ensures that looking out for the interests of others is not overlooked. Note again the morphological correspondence between the correlated elements; both are complements of the verb." Runge, S. E. (2010). A Discourse Grammar of the Greek New Testament: A Practical Introduction for Teaching and Exegesis (96). Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

Look out for one another’s interests, not just for your own restructures a Greek participial phrase with the force of an imperative (literally, “not looking each of you to his own things, but each of you also to the things of others” ASV). NEB also restructures, but in a different manner: “You must look to each other’s interest and not merely to your own.” The participle translated look out means basically “to look attentively,” that is, to fix one’s attention on something with deep interest in it (Brc “concentrate”, cf. 2 Cor 4.18; Gal 6.1). There is a danger of translating look out for one another’s interests not just for your own in such a way as to suggest a wrong interpretation. From some translations readers receive the idea that one is to concentrate attention on other people’s affairs even to the neglect of his own, and not necessarily for the advantage of the other person, but rather to take advantage of that person. Therefore it may be important to translate this verse as “Be sure to protect the interests of others, and not just your own.”

The phrase “each of you to his own things” is sometimes interpreted in a way that brings it into closer harmony with the disposition of humility mentioned in the preceding verse. According to this interpretation, Paul is here speaking of the “good qualities” of others; he is urging his readers to seek out the virtues of their fellow members. Most recent translators, however, understand Paul as urging the Philippian Christians to consider one another’s interests (cf. 1 Cor 10.24, 33).

Loh, I., & Nida, E. A. (1995], c1977). A handbook on Paul's letter to the Philippians. Originally published: A translators handbook on Paul's letter to the Philippians, c1977. UBS Helps for translators; UBS handbook series (52). New York: United Bible Societies.

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/264725#Comment_264725

The cheapest and easiest way to purchase the old NIV is to find it on a CDROM, NIV Concordia Self-Study CD-ROM the retails for $34.95. When you receive it you can either install it manually whihc would install 3.0 on your system or you can call logos with the code and have it unlocked. Your logos 4 should download the LOGOS4 files. I am not sure of all sources for this item but the publisher sells it. This is the only way you can get a new licence for the 1984 version.

-Dan

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/264785#Comment_264785

The cheapest and easiest way to purchase the old NIV is to find it on a CDROM, NIV Concordia Self-Study CD-ROM the retails for $34.95.

Dan,

The link Ted gave for the Logos website's NIV1984 download is $26.65. It appears to be available for purchase. Is this not correct & cheaper?

You may try
to contact the publisher to see if they will release NIV84 for
individual purchase.

See here, it is still available http://www.logos.com/product/8786/new-international-version

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/264793#Comment_264793

The cheapest and easiest way to purchase the old NIV is to find it on a CDROM, NIV Concordia Self-Study CD-ROM the retails for $34.95.

Dan,

The link Ted gave for the Logos website's NIV1984 download is $26.65. It appears to be available for purchase. Is this not correct & cheaper?

You may try
to contact the publisher to see if they will release NIV84 for
individual purchase.

See here, it is still available http://www.logos.com/product/8786/new-international-version

I missed that sorry, NIV1984 is no longer available for sale for sale from some companies, I was under the impression that it was no longer allowed to be sold, I got my forums mixed up as Accordance is no longer allowed to sell any new 84 licences unless it is on an old Disc. I assumed the end of June ban applied to all sellers of none physical versions.

Anyone know when logos will have to stop selling the 1984???

-Dan

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/264901#Comment_264901

Anyone know when logos will have to stop selling the 1984???

No. But if I did not already have it I would jump on it (TODAY people.)

About a month ago we heard of an old sale link to the Calvin 500 Collection that was still active. It was an oversight and the code was soon removed from the checkout system, but not before our savvy shopper had secured a huge discount It seems the NIV1984 will eventually disappear from the catalog.

Is Mebin

I, too, have platinum...with NIV84...should I also have NIV2011 or do we have to buy it separately?

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/264977#Comment_264977

I, too, have platinum...with NIV84...should I also have NIV2011 or do we have to buy it separately?

Observation: upgrade from Scholar's Platinum (LE) to Scholar's Platinum (KF) cost $ 0.00 and included NIV 2011.

Keep Smiling [:)]

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/264980#Comment_264980

I, too, have platinum...with NIV84...should I also have NIV2011 or do we have to buy it separately?

Observation: upgrade from Scholar's Platinum (LE) to Scholar's Platinum (KF) cost $ 0.00 and included NIV 2011.

Keep Smiling

And the best part is you get to keep the 1984 version too. That goes for the other changes in the (KF) [packages.

Is Mebin

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/265001#Comment_265001

I never bought any upgrade, I just purchased the platinum package up front...I don't have NIV2011 though, just the NIV84.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/265281#Comment_265281

Because you have the NIV84, I am assuming that you have had your Logos 4 platinum longer than six months. If you follow the link below, you will find out that there is a "free crossgrade" for owners of the LE package, which may apply to you. I hope it does!

If you don't want your NIV84 any longer, you can transfer it to me...(just kidding) [:D].

http://community.logos.com/forums/t/28219.aspx?PageIndex=1