Forum Guidelines: No Theology Debates
Please stop the theology wars in Logos forums.
Just stop.
Stop posting about errors in other people's doctrine. Please stop posting your own doctrine. Please stop responding to correct misperceptions or misunderstandings or to counter attacks.
It takes two to have an argument. Please stop being the second party that turns an unkind post into a flame war.
Logos Bible Software is here to serve everyone who studies the Bible. That is intentionally "big tent" and we intentionally do not have a statement of faith or a doctrinal position.
The forums are here to support and discuss Logos Bible Software. There are plenty of forums for gladitorial theological combat; please take those discussions there.
I do not want to moderate the forums. I do not want to pay someone to moderate the forums. I am opposed to deleting or locking threads because it's pointless: the person who must make their voice heard will find other ways to do so. And the person who would respect the shut down doesn't need to be "deleted," only told. And I want to spend our resources on building tools, not hiring hall monitors for the forums.
Big News: Not everyone agrees on theology. Turns out, Catholics and protestants have been disagreeing for quite some time. The arguments have, at times, gotten quite heated, if you could believe that. Turns out, the protestants have their own problems, too. They've been splitting churches on stuff like form of baptism (forward immersion or backwards?), style of worship music (drums in church?), and, amazingly, personal disagreements that sometimes start at covered-dish suppers.
Logos is here for everyone who studies the Bible. Baby sprinklers, backwards immersers, forward triple-dunkers, bacon in the potato salad, lime Jello molds with celery, pastors with robes, churches with candles, vegetarians, and sunrise services on the beach. Heretics, cultists, and atheists included; we'd love for them to study the Bible, too.
To everyone who knows that others are wrong:
Wouldn't it be great if all the people who waste their time and energy on petty things put that time and energy into Bible study? Wouldn't it be great if people who've made horrible theological errors and are leading others astray spent their time in studying the Word? And what is more likely to set the wrong on the path of truth? My badgering and taunting, or time spent studying God's Word?
I'd sure hate to be wasting the time and energy of people of people who, because they've bought Logos Bible Software and are hanging out in its forums, have already shown that they're engaged in that study and pursuit of God's truth.
There are other places where you can seek out and engage people who aren't already studying. Maybe they want to be badgered. Or better yet, you could encourage them to do their own study, too.
One more time, bluntly.
Most of the theology flame wars seem to be protestant/Catholic. Just stop.
Protestants: The Catholics here are the ones engaged in personal Bible study. No matter how much you disagree with Catholic doctrine / church history / whatever, wouldn't these be your favorite Catholics? Please treat them kindly.
Catholics: Logos welcomes you, and we're working hard to provide more tools, resources, and support. We've hired a Catholic product manager and are working hard to serve you. But our customer base is still 95% protestant, and you know that there are some passionate and even out-of-control people in protestant churches, and that the protestants don't do a good job getting along on a single doctrinal statement. That's why the Catholic church is basically one large church, and the average protestant church splits after reaching 100-200 people. I know the attacks are painful and unkind, but please understand that you're "surrounded" by people who traditionally are more likely to split a church than seek unity. In the protestant mindset there isn't a single authority figure who will be respected, let alone able to quell debate and dissension.
Respectfully,
-- Bob
Comments
-
Well said Bob! As a Pentecostal with a cousin who is a Catholic Priest, a son-in-law who is a Lutheran pastor, a sister-in-law who is a devoted Catholic, and a now deceased uncle who was a Free-Methodist pastor, I've found that we can agree on far more than we disagree on. And I've been enriched by peaceful discussions, over the Word, about the areas we disagree on.
I haven't changed my doctrinal stance, but I have enlarged my vision of God's church. Logos software offers us the opportunity to participate in informed discussions about our differences, away from the forums, while we celebrate our love of Logos in the forums.
John A. Taylor - L5 Portfolio+++ = A Great Library!
"A life in His love and fellowship will make prayer to Him the natural expression of our soul's life." ~ Andrew Murray
0 -
[^o)] HHHMMMmmm~~~ [^o)]
0 -
Bob Pritchett said:
Please stop the theology wars in Logos forums.
Bob, may I suggest that to this we add: Stop debates about Bible versions.
The vitriol can be similar and the value of the debates equally dubious.
EDIT: I just realized I didn't thank you for this post. Thank you, thank you,thank you!
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
0 -
Richard DeRuiter said:Bob Pritchett said:
Please stop the theology wars in Logos forums.
Bob, may I suggest that to this we add: Stop debates about Bible versions.
The vitriol can be similar and the value of the debates equally dubious.
Agreed! [Y]
Debates are different than discussions.
Proselytizing and judging should be checked at the door.
edit: If all Bible versions were the same, we would only have one. With dozens to choose from, they can't all be equal. With 2.1 billion potential Bible readers, we will not settle on which is "best." No debates.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
0
-
Thanks Bob,
I hope everyone will take this advice. I thought of jumping into the conversation that spawned this thread but did not because of all the reasons Bob stated. I have strong doctrinal beliefs and I believe I am right. This means I believe many others are wrong HOWEVER, this is not the place to deal with those. This is the place where we can discuss the tool that helps us study the scriptures and that is the best thing anyone can do to find the truth. Please everyone who has participated in that thread STOP!
My prayer is that ALL who contributed repent, think and move forward with our discussions about the best tool around for Bible study.
0 -
I appreatiate Bob's intervention but I wish the clarifications had been… clearer.
Bob emphasized theological wars and heated debates. However, the specifics concerning what people should not do appear to preclude any and all theological discussions: “Stop posting about errors in other people's doctrine. Please stop posting your own doctrine. Please stop responding to correct misperceptions or misunderstandings or to counter attacks”. I do not see any theological exchange that would not qualify.
I understand why a company would want to limit theological debates/discussions. When sales and customer satisfaction are concerned, there is little upside and a lot of downside when discussing religion. Offended or marginalized customers are less likely to stay.
However, I found some of the theological rationale (all that should matters is that people are studying God’s Word) to be less convincing and even counterproductive (the reason why individuals engage others theologically in venues such as this one is rarely because the other person does not study the Bible but mainly because of the belief that said person is doing it the wrong way). The solution is not to present theological differences as trivial (some, not all, have eternal consequences) and related discussions as a waste of time (promoting sound doctrine is encouraged by the Bible itself) but to emphasize the fact that by company policy, this website is not the place for such exchanges (plain and simple). Such a rule does not need a somewhat questionable theological rationale and stands on its own.
As a user of this website, I respect Logos’ rules and regulations and as such, I do not participate in activities that are forbidden by the company (even though I like constructive theological discussions as much as the next man). However, even if discussions were allowed, I would still stay out of many of them because of the lack of edification. It is good that Bob decided to step in and calm things down.
Alain
0 -
[Y][Y]
I am just sorry you needed to write it all. May God and His Word be praised by all who are here.
Blessings,
FloydPastor-Patrick.blogspot.com
0 -
Thank you, Bob, it needed saying. I'm an Anglican, albeit a reluctant one. I worship with the Catholics. Used to worship with the Evangelical church as well, till they cold-shouldered me for worshipping with the Catholics. Present pastor and family are good friends of mine and very supportive. I'm just back from a visit to them. He says "theological problems" are usually an excuse for a personality clash... I live in a Muslim village, and we do Bible study according approximately to the evangelical model because that's what makes sense to the participants. We don't use the term Christian, but call ourselves Believers in Jesus. I use Logos daily for Bible study and Vyrso even more for reading. Some of my Bible study is done from an old fashioned paper Bible, but I then turn to Logos for commentaries.
I normally enjoy the forums, but have tended not to open the threads that appear to have a theological/aggressive bias.
0 -
nicky crane said:
I normally enjoy the forums, but have tended not to open the threads that appear to have a theological/aggressive bias.
Could you loan me some of your self-control? [8-|]
0 -
IT'S NOT self control. I just find them unattractive. I've suffered enough from intolerance about my heretical views, whether it's believing the Bible too much, or failing to understand it the way the other person does, that I'm just turned off by theological diatribes, or what appear to me to be diatribes, or over-dogmatic statements .
0 -
Bob Pritchett said:
I know the attacks are painful and unkind, but please understand that you're "surrounded" by people who traditionally are more likely to split a church than seek unity. In the protestant mindset there isn't a single authority figure who will be respected, let alone able to quell debate and dissension.
Bob,
I have spent a great deal of money, and continue to spend money on your software. My daily use of the forum is basically limited to looking at what people say regarding specific resources that I may have overlooked. I am a partner in a 250 person CPA firm with over 2000 clients. I can’t imagine speaking to my clients or employees in this manner.
Your statement is extremely offensive. To make such a sweeping statement is wrong. There are many protestant / reformed persons like myself that simply scan the forum daily for information.
To be clear… I respect authority figures. Within the church I submit to the elders, outside the church I submit to all governing authorities, just as the bible commands me to. I seek unity around the authority of the bible, hence the reason that I have spent so much money on your software, and why I study any chance I get. Lastly, I have never “split” a church, or caused dissention in a church.
Mark
0 -
nicky crane said:
I've suffered enough from intolerance about my heretical views, whether it's believing the Bible too much, or failing to understand it the way the other person does, that I'm just turned off by theological diatribes, or what appear to me to be diatribes, or over-dogmatic statements .
I like theology.
I like different tribes.
I like dogs.
It is those automatic cat statements I can't stand. Woof!Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
Thank you Bob for stepping in and sharing with us all you have said. I am sorry you have to do it but appreciate it even more. Please, keep on with your vision of building a strong Bible Software company for all/any/whoever would take Bible into his/her hands. I believe it is a God-given mission. God bless you in all you are and you do. [Y]
Bohuslav
0 -
Bob,
Understood and I'll do my best; though I might slip here and there.
I'm sorry that (knowing your normal ultra-cool demeanor) that it got to this...and I apologize.
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
0 -
Well said.
Can we sticky this post and lock it down so its always visible?
0 -
Users of the software are diverse and many. We come from a wide variety of backgrounds, many denominations, countries etc.. Lets respect each others views, discuss the uses of the software, and how we can help each other benefit from it.
I have been blessed from the posts of many, and am not concerned with their theological leanings. It does not matter, where you worship, or if you worship at all. Just give your input on how to make a great product better, or ask your questions related to the software.
My only concern is how can we make a good product better. Keep posting your suggestions for improvements, resources to be added, and tips on using the software.
Time to get back on track.
Love and peace.
Lynden
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
0 -
Mark said:
To be clear… I respect authority figures. Within the church I submit to the elders, outside the church I submit to all governing authorities, just as the bible commands me to. I seek unity around the authority of the bible, hence the reason that I have spent so much money on your software, and why I study any chance I get. Lastly, I have never “split” a church, or caused dissention in a church.
Mark,
If everyone were like you and respected authority and sought to live peaceably with all men, there would be no dissension. There are around 750,000 Logos users and the overwhelming majority of them are nice people who respect others. Bob's "sweeping statement" is just that, sweeping. He is attempting to clean up a mess. It is a bit silly for a company CEO to have to have to smooth things over because "Christian adults" can not behave.
Obviously Bob's statement is not referring to you or 749,950 of the other Logos users. These forums are for you & them. Law enforcement is only necessary against lawbreakers. If you can be a peacemaker behind the scenes, God bless your efforts.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
Matthew C Jones said:
God bless your efforts.
I would have liked to have seen Bob use the word 'statistically' instead of 'traditionally.' [8-|]
0 -
Bob Pritchett said:
Logos Bible Software is here to serve everyone who studies the Bible. That is intentionally "big tent" and we intentionally do not have a statement of faith or a doctrinal position.
The forums are here to support and discuss Logos Bible Software. There are plenty of forums for gladitorial theological combat; please take those discussions there.
Bob, you are going to have trouble with the Big Tent mentality when it comes to the folks that buy your software, and how they want to express themselves on a forum like this. Just as you brought up good points about church splits etc, when you are talking about the Bible, it will cause some to ask questions, who do not know about any discussions on other web pages (some of them I pray will never be found), but are reading your product and have questions. Or, do you simply want only question to come up about what button do I press to do this or that, and how do you inforce that?
With that said, I think you need to allow some of your VIP's authority to kill a thread when it gets out of hand. I don't think you need to make a commentary on all of this, or let Dan take the brunt of it (humor), because folks will view your comments differently then you probably intended them to.
I am sorry that you had to step in, and I don't know the thread that caused it, but you have some pretty good VIPs that could help nip this before it gets out of hand. Just some thoughts.
Ralph
0 -
Ralph Mauch said:
I think you need to allow some of your VIP's authority to kill a thread
While I sympathize with this sentiment, I don't think it is the answer. Ultimately, if this policy is implemented, you have the potential of producing a lot of hurt feelings. "Why did you kill my thread but not this one?" "That MVP is biased against [name a theological position here] but sympathetic towards [name a theological position here]." "Unfair." "Capricious."
I think a better solution would be to establish a Cage Match forum which could be entered voluntarily or, posts/threads could be redirected there by the MVPs. Perhaps, in extreme situations, it might even be used to banish a recalcitrant for a timeout with no access to the main forums ... sort of like a penalty box. Either way, the Cage Match forum would be a no holds barred, enter at your own risk, place where the more philosophically pugnacious, those who like theological jousting, and those who fantasize themselves as Valiant for Truth can go and have at it. Meanwhile the rest of the Logos Forums can be dedicated to the software and the books as the owner/provider of forum has stated many times over.
Just my two cents ...
Instead of Artificial Intelligence, I prefer to continue to rely on Divine Intelligence instructing my Natural Dullness (Ps 32:8, John 16:13a)
0 -
Ralph Mauch said:
With that said, I think you need to allow some of your VIP's authority to kill a thread when it gets out of hand.
Make sense to me. Look how it worked in Mayberry. Hang a star on the village idiot and let him patrol the halls.JRS said:I think a better solution would be to establish a Cage Match forum which could be entered voluntarily or, posts/threads could be redirected there by the MVPs.
You assume that an unpaid hall monitor is more effective than a paid hall monitor?
Bob Pritchett said:I do not want to moderate the forums. I do not want to pay someone to moderate the forums. I am opposed to deleting or locking threads because it's pointless: the person who must make their voice heard will find other ways to do so. And the person who would respect the shut down doesn't need to be "deleted," only told. And I want to spend our resources on building tools, not hiring hall monitors for the forums.
0 -
My two cents is that these things need to be killed IMMEDIATELY if they escalate as quickly and divisively as the recent one did. Especially if the poster has a previous history or is especially adamant that (s)he speaks for God and the rules as stated here don't apply to them.
0 -
In another thread a wise man recently said this: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/34988/264860.aspx#264860
and this: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/34988/264902.aspx#264902
and this: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/34988/264927.aspx#264927
Let Bob run Logos. [C]
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
Matthew, your link didn't send me anywhere that supports your comment. I consider Richard DeRuiter to be VERY wise, but he wasn't commenting on Bob running his business.
0 -
Oh, sorry. I "get" your drift now, Matthew. Rightly dividing one's comments is important, isn't it?
0 -
I know we all want the same results but Bob did not ask for our help in developing forum policy. There are as many ideas on how to do that as there are ways to celebrate December's Holy Day(s).
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
I'm not a big fan of sweeping things under rugs, mind you.
0 -
The forum policies are there for everyone to see. The ones posted under the Phil Gons moniker, anyway. THEY seem like a REALLY good idea to me.
0 -
Well since everyone else seems to be giving Bob unsolicited advice, let me try as well.
First, these forums are owned by Logos. They pay for them, they have their name on them, they are the "face" of Logos on the internet. That means that no one, including me, has a right to say anything here other than Logos employees. There is a huge difference between freedom of speech and freedom of venue.
Second, that means that Logos can (and should) close threads, delete comments, and generally police the forums. If I get moderated, that is fine. Just because I have the right to believe and say what I believe, does not give me the right to go into your house and yell at you (or call you on the phone at 2am, or shout in a movie theater, you get my drift).
Third, the expectation of the forums is that this will be a place for help, discussion, etc. about Logos. This is especially true since Logos does not really come with any sort of help files or manual. That is not a problem - because the forums fill that gap very nicely.
Fourth, the users need to exercise restraint within the constraints of the above (and Logos forum philosophy). This is a place about software, not theology. When a thread comes up about a Logos resource where people gush about a resource that I consider heretical or dangerous, I simply avoid that thread (as I expect others do with threads I find useful). There is no need to "do theology" here. I want to know what resources are available in Logos, not what people think is wrong about certain authors.
My suggestion as an admin of a theology board with more than 2 million visits and 10 million page views per year, is that a little policing goes a long way. Having users "report threads" to Logos employees (through PM? email? a report thread subforum?) and then having Logos employees summarily close threads or delete posts that go against guidelines would all but stop this kind of time sink.
Keep up the good work, Logos. Your software is helpful, and so are these forums.
Fred Greco
Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA, Katy, TX
Windows 10 64-bit; Logos 7.1 SR-2 (Reformed Platinum)0
