Forum Guidelines: No Theology Debates

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This post has 366 Replies | 8 Followers

Posts 390
Alain Maashe | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 5 2011 6:11 PM

George Somsel:

My friend, you think Catholic theology isn't consistent with the gospel, but I would tell you that "evangelical" theology also isn't compatible with the gospel.  The gospel is not theology and doesn't depend on theology.  The gospel regards a trust in the love of God revealed in Jesus Christ and not in thinking the right thoughts.  When Christianity was still in the crib there was a movement known as gnosticism which essentially contended that you need to get your thoughts straight regarding reality.  If you conceived of reality properly, then you were home free.  That is not Christianity; that is not the gospel.

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George,

You have accomplished a feat that I have not witnessed in more than a decade of seminary studies with the help of Logos software. Pay no attention to the jealous folks who insist that there is a reason it (the feat) has never been done.

You have managed to define what the gospel “is not” and what the gospel “is” without making a single theological statement. Bob must be happy. (Of course, if these were theological statements as some might argue, it would mean that even your gospel is theology, even if it is theology that one needs to live out in through personal trust in God).  Stick out tongue

As Always...

 

Alain

 

Posts 322
Ralph Mauch | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 5 2011 7:37 PM

George Somsel:
The gospel regards a trust in the love of God revealed in Jesus Christ and not in thinking the right thoughts.

Alain Maashe:
You have managed to define what the gospel “is not” and what the gospel “is” without making a single theological statement. Bob must be happy. (Of course, if these were theological statements as some might argue, it would mean that even your gospel is theology, even if it is theology that one needs to live out in through personal trust in God). 

 Yes

Posts 4
Mike | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 5 2011 7:39 PM

Well Bob, when well we get a rep from Jehovah’s Witnesses and New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures?

...Mike

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 5 2011 8:00 PM

Mike:

Well Bob, when well we get a rep from Jehovah’s Witnesses and New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures?

...Mike

Are you suggesting that Logos might want to create such a position and are you suggesting it -- or is this simply a provocative statement?

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 4625
RIP
Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 5 2011 8:13 PM

Richard DeRuiter:
The purpose of the forums, as I understand it, is for users to talk with each other about Logos software. It's really that simple. This used to happen in a newsgroup, and now happens in a web-based forum. We give each other tips and advice, ask some basic 'how to' questions, and sometimes wonder out loud about what we wish the software could do (sometimes to find out that it actually does it already).
Peace, Richard!

                  *smile*

          Thank you for posting!             Indeed!                     You echo my thoughts precisely.     After a number of years on the old Logos Newsgroups and going on two years if not passed now (who keeps score?)   on the Logos Forums, I must say I've been richly blessed by my Logos Brothers and Sisters.  It has been a wonderful ride; and hope it continues.

                        I daresay that perhaps I've helped a few as well; and it feels "just right"!  At least I think I've been a blessing and will continue to support fellow Logos Users!\ 

           *smile*

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 5 2011 8:23 PM

Mike:
Well Bob, when well we get a rep from Jehovah’s Witnesses and New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures?

I'm not Bob so I don't have an answer. But I would buy the New World Translation without any help from a rep. And I'm not a Jehovah's Witness.

My college roommate did evangelism in Salt Lake City and found it helpful to know what the various Mormon texts said.

I have a Pre-Pub order in for The Sacred Books of the East (50 vols.) to better understand people who practice those religions.

 

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 2829
Michael Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 5 2011 8:36 PM

I just want to state that these forums have been a blessing to me. Thanks to those who have participated. We are all Bob's guests here. We must abide by the rules or go away. It is that simple. There is nothing Christian about rudeness, and arrogance is not a fruit of the Spirit. As Wesley said, "One may be almost as orthodox as the devil, though all men have some error in their theology and the devil knows the truth, and still be twice the child of hell that he is."

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 4
Mike | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 5 2011 8:42 PM

 

Why not? The Bible can only have one way to believe. RCC is not correct until they stop praying to Mary and other falsehoods. Bob just wants to sell more logos Dbooks. Back in the DOS days he would not done so.

...Mike

 

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 5 2011 9:00 PM

Mike:

 

Why not? The Bible can only have one way to believe. RCC is not correct until they stop praying to Mary and other falsehoods. Bob just wants to sell more logos Dbooks. Back in the DOS days he would not done so.

...Mike

 

In such a short post you have included multiple errors. 

  1. Catholics do not "pray to Mary."  The rationale is that just as we would ask a friend to pray for us so too one can ask the departed saints to pray for us.  They do not therefore consider that their prayer is directed to Mary but that they are asking for her prayers on their behalf.
  2. I think you are being most uncharitable respecting Bob.  Vanity of vanities -- as the Preacher said, "Of making many books there is no end."  In addition to the suggestions posted on this forum there are many suggestions sent directly to suggest@logos.com so I'm certain that Bob doesn't need to search for works to publish.  "Who are you to pass judgment on servants of another?"

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 5 2011 9:04 PM

Michael Childs:
There is nothing Christian about rudeness, and arrogance is not a fruit of the Spirit.

I can't figure why you are replying to my post. Did I offend you? Sorry if I did, but I seriously would buy the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine & the Covenants, and the New World Translation in Logos format. I already have all these in non-logos format for reference purposes.

edit: I would also read writings from feminist, Unitarian, liberation, or MCC perspectives. Not for doctrine, but perspective. I also buy oil from Muslims and diamonds from Jews.   (You probably do too.)

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 1691
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 5 2011 10:53 PM

Keith Larson:
Your characterization of Protestants was very unfair.

See, this is why I hate these arguments... I'm in over my head. :-)

I've heard a few people (here, and on blogs) saying I've "thrown protestants under the bus" or gone "anti-protestant." That certainly wasn't my intention at all, and I apologize if I was somehow unfair to protestants, among whom I number myself.

This is a case of writing too quickly and posting without enough thought, in the heat of the moment. I wasn't trying to make any bold statements about Catholics and protestants; I actually thought I was making a mildly clever point in response to calls for someone to "step in and settle things," by pointing out that protestant churches don't have the hierarchy of the Catholic church. When protestants disagree on doctrine, they rarely kick the issue upstairs for an authoritative answer from the church hierarchy; they just split the church. I was trying to make the point that it was harder to get people so inclined to ever "settle down and get along" when they believe they are arguing a theologically important point. I thought that the request for someone to "set the rules" reflected a perspective that might be informed by experience in a more hierarchial church structure.

This was obviously too subtle a point and too gross a simplification, and probably too informed by my own experience in small non-denominational churches, all too many of which seem so split over trivial stuff.

Even my use of split wasn't a reference to departing "away from the true church." I meant splitting as in Tom, Mary, and their small group are leaving to start a new church down the street where we will use harmonicas during worship....

I apologize for the confusion, and for my flippancy. I plead jet-lag (last week) and too many simultaneous fires.

-- Bob

 

Posts 10631
Forum MVP
Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 6 2011 2:49 AM

Bob Pritchett:
When protestants disagree on doctrine, they rarely kick the issue upstairs for an authoritative answer from the church hierarchy; they just split the church. I

Being Baptist, I understood your point completely. Geeked

Posts 476
Nord Zootman | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 6 2011 3:56 AM

Thanks Bob

Posts 4
Mike | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 6 2011 4:33 AM

 

>> Catholics do not "pray to Mary." The rationale is that just as we would ask a friend to pray for us so too one can ask the departed saints to pray for us. They do not therefore consider that their prayer is directed to Mary but that they are asking for her prayers on their behalf.

Hmmmm, do you really want to go there? I do know different. My point was/is. You bring on a catholic product manager  for RCC people, so why not a JW.

Lets see... Catholic product manager, Baptist product manager, Bob Jones product manager,  Jehovah's Witnesses product manager........

There is no problem with Bob selling books but then smash mouth the protestant Churches. Proof

Bob says,,, Catholics: Logos welcomes you, and we're working hard to provide more tools, resources, and support. We've hired a Catholic product manager and are working hard to serve you. But our customer base is still 95% protestant, and you know that there are some passionate and even out-of-control people in protestant churches, and that the protestants don't do a good job getting along on a single doctrinal statement. That's why the Catholic church is basically one large church, and the average protestant church splits after reaching 100-200 people. I know the attacks are painful and unkind, but please understand that you're "surrounded" by people who traditionally are more likely to split a church than seek unity. In the protestant mindset there isn't a single authority figure who will be respected, let alone able to quell debate and dissension.

So large protestant Churches are best? I do not see that in the Bible.

Posts 93
Michael Gaskin | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 6 2011 6:05 AM

.

Posts 322
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 6 2011 6:32 AM

In terms of being offended as a Protestant my rule of thumb that I learned from several graduate schools is....

Everyone is offended all the time for any, all, several, or no reason at all.

Posts 3668
Floyd Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 6 2011 6:34 AM

Rene Atchley:

In terms of being offended as a Protestant my rule of thumb that I learned from several graduate schools is....

Everyone is offended all the time for any, all, several, or no reason at all.

Smile In a similar vein, my rule of thumb has become, "I don't have to be nice."  I can provide my theological basis for this position if necessary. 

Blessings,
Floyd

Pastor-Patrick.blogspot.com

Posts 1790
Tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 6 2011 7:08 AM

Matthew C Jones:
I seriously would buy the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine & the Covenants, and the New World Translation in Logos format. I already have all these in non-logos format for reference purposes.

Thank Matthew, I too hope that Logos will offers them in the future for that same purpose. Smile

www.hombrereformado.org  Solo a Dios la Gloria   Apoyo

Posts 1374
nicky crane | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 6 2011 8:04 AM

Bob, I'm sorry you're getting so much flak, which must be hurtful.

Incidentally I would very much like a New World Bible in Logos format.  I've tried and failed so far to get one in Albanian.  I need to know what JWs believe before I can answer questions about them.

There are Logos products that don't appeal to me, but no one's forcing me to read them, let alone buy them.  In fact I've bought, or ordered more than is good for my bank balance.

 

Re Catholics praying to Mary, those who know and obey the teaching of the church normally ask her to intercede for them.  But of course there are Catholics who don't know the teaching of the church, as there are Protestants who have strange ideas....

Posts 152
Ryan | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 6 2011 8:17 AM

Frank Turk has responded...

http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2011/07/open-letter-to-bob-pritchett.html

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Bob --

My friend Ed Stetzer says the open letters are all alike, but I think this one will stand apart.

Welcome to the internet.

Yes, I know: you've been in business since you were 6, you're a tech guy with that visionary business, um, thing, and you are certainly familiar with the internet.

Well, I'm sure you have a feed reader, and I'm sure you grasp the uses of viral marketing, and I'm sure you have read a few blogs in your day. But this weekend you made a completely-rookie mistake at the Logos community forums, and I thought you -- being a pragmatic man who is willing to do what's right for the sake of your own actual objectives rather than some flighty ideal -- might hear me out about that mistake and take some advice worth at least what it costs you.

For those who missed it, here's what you said:

CLICK TO ENLARGE

Now, here's what you didn't do wrong: upholding community standards in an internet forum is not wrong. It's actually fundamentally right. And as I see it, your post was meant to do exactly that -- as headlined by the subject line of your post: "Forum Guidelines: No Theology Debates."

You and I both know: the purpose of the Logos forum is not apologetics. It's not even evangelism. It's something far more secular and rudimentary: creating a community of users who are unified by a product or a brand for the purpose of marketing the product. This kind of forum has dozens of others consequential uses for the participants: it can create support for innovation and product development; it can provide relatively cost-free (for the product marketer) 24/7/365 support; it can provide a venue for understanding upgrades and plug-ins (which in turn produces more sales for the marketer and more satisfaction for the user); it can create a culture for users who then use the product in unexpected or inventive ways, causing more buzz for the product.

In short: there are a lot of reasons for Logos to literally foot the bill for a user forum, but none of those reasons have one iota to do with whether or not righteousness is imputed or infused. They all have to do with gaining users for the product.

And let me say this without any reservation, sarcasm, or qualification: I admire that. I admire the kind of commitment it takes to want the product to rule its market, and the commitment it takes to see that it really does take standards to make that happen.

CLICK TO ENLARGE

I mean: it is actually a rule for the forums -- at least since 19 Jan 2010, according to the above screencap. It's a long-standing rule, and the objective there is simple: anyone who wants to learn to use Logos software can come here; anyone who wants to make a theological point while using Logos software can use the whole rest of the internet to do so.  I credit you for being serious about your product.

Having a policy is not a rookie mistake. Indeed: not having a policy, or failing to enforce it consistently, is the rookie mistake.

So what's the big stink about? Where's the rookie error?

Well, the problem is feeding the trolls, Bob. Let me suggest something to you: by trotting out the most-offensive polemic of internet "Catholics" against Protestants, and then trotting out what can only be called talking out of the side of one's ecumenical mouth to Protestants about the Catholics who are allegedly using Logos (the Bible-readers, people: not the Mariolators and Indulgence-collectors), you have taken sides in the debate you are trying to squash.

I realize I'm not the life-long entrepreneur you are, Bob, but I am a bit of an intermediate blow-hard here in the bandwidth.  Here's one way you could have approached this:

Dear Logos Users and Forum Community:
It is a long-standing policy of Logos not to let the forum expand its scope from a vehicle to generate support and community relationships regarding the use of our product families. For that reason, we do not allow theological debate to blossom on the various forums.
Logos is the leading publisher of multilingual Bible software on Mac, Windows and mobile platforms -- and we don't foster debates as to whether one computing platform is superior to another. Logos partners with more than 130 publishers to make more than 12,000 electronic books available to customers in more than 180 countries -- and we don't foster debate over which is the most influential or most important among them. The company serves church, academic and lay markets, bringing the best in software innovation to Christians worldwide -- and that marketplace has many needs.
Logos now produces high-end tools for studying biblical texts in their original languages along with the largest electronic libraries for study of the Bible. The combination of tools and texts within the software now make it possible, for the first time ever, to perform in-depth biblical language research from the same software application that holds the largest and most advanced electronic Bible reference library available. The unified, integrated research platform reduces the cost and learning curve associated with having to own and maintain a separate software package for each style of study.
Projects underway include the development of exclusive new databases with the help of scholars from around the world. Data creation is a new area for Logos, but we're confident that the databases and morphologies being built will pave the way for the next revolution in electronic Bible study.
To that end, please keep these forums about these subjects and not others -- which are right-minded subjects for the church to consider, but which will also never be resolved in a forum which is not intended to solve them.
Thanks for your help, but be aware that our forum administrators will continue to block and delete posts which violate our rules for forum use.

Right? You could have said it that way -- mostly-objective, somewhat-pointed, and strictly about the subject you really wanted to promote here: Logos products.

Instead, something else happened here -- and I want to give you my take on it since I have your attention. As a former CBA member (almost 10 years as an independent retailer), one thing always stunned me about CBA: the idea that somehow being averse to any apologetic or theological distinction was not actually, in and of itself, a kind of apologetics. The eye-rolling that ICRS/ECPA/CBA people do when someone makes a theological point toward a liberal who is torturing orthodoxy or when someone trots out Mormons as Christians is its own sort of apologetic - the kind which wants to flatten all differences out to matters of taste rather than important places where the Christian faith actually makes itself different than other ideas and religions.

And let's face it, Bob: the Catholic/Protestant split really has never been deeper than it is today -- it just has the problem of actual Protestants being almost completely not in evidence. This is not my opinion, but David Wells' opinion, which he has documented over the last 2 decades for us all so well. Instead we have uncolored, flavorless Evanjellos jiggling in the public square, pressing themselves into all manner of relevant moulds in the hope that someone will at least squirt some canned whipped cream on them for some kind of savor.

What you did was the classic ECPA play of alleged objectivity girding itself up against sectarianism -- by ignoring and minimizing real differences and issues for the sake of what we have to admit is only one thing: selling our stuff to the largest demographic we can statistically size up.

See: there's nothing wrong with selling any morally-credible product to anyone who will buy it. Bill Mays was not a bad guy for being a huckster. You're not a bad guy for selling Logos and finding books and documents to digitize to grow your market.

But there is something wrong with intentionally minimizing issues of truth to appeal to an audience. There is something wrong, when you say you have a reformed statement of faith, in essentially tossing it off when it comes between you and your product for the sake of silencing debate. You don't need anyone to sign off on your convictions in order to sell them a product -- but running down your own confession, and the confessions of like-minded people, in order to quell the concerns of potential customers, is wrong.  That's what your statement did, and it is this broad and common error which makes your approach a bad one.

You're a clever guy, and you could have done better -- you can still do better. You can overcome the rookie mistake of dipping into the internet as a combatant rather than as a marketer.

Thanks for decades of innovations which have benefitted thousands globally is their use of the Bible and all manner of theological resources. Remember your business mission and your confession as you tread out into the internet where someone, invariably, is wrong.

To that end, I am praying for you.

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