Pricing question - Wuest

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Posts 29
RMC | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Jul 5 2011 5:23 AM


I'm brand new to all this - I found Logos when getting ready to do Precept Bible studies, and I'm loving it.  I'm still working on building my library, using some resources I've been made familiar with.

Right now I have the Bible Study library, and I'm adding a few things that have been recommended to me - one of them is Wuest's word studies.

I see that Logos has a couple of options for purchasing these -

Separately - for $125 for $39.95

or together - for $79.95


I guess I'm confused as to why if I can get both together for $80, it is $125 for me to get the one resource separately?  Are these the same resources, or is there something more to the separate resource that's missing in the bundle?  Don't get me wrong -I'm not complaining at all about the discount for the bundle and I'm sure that's what I'll end up buying Smile, but I just want to make sure I'm not missing something by purchasing the bundle.  In my logic, why would the separate resource even be offered when the bundle is so much cheaper - unless there's something more to the separate resource that's not there in the bundle.  

My other question - I am hoping to eventually (not any time really soon - but within the next year or two) upgrade to the scholar's library.  I know that these resources are included in that library - will the fact that I already own the Wuest resources be taken into consideration when I purchase the scholar's library, or will I essentially be paying an extra $80 for the use of these resources for a year or two before I purchase the library? Would I be better off just saving my pennies and being patient and waiting until I can afford the full upgrade Cool?

Thanks so much!


Posts 10177
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 5 2011 5:40 AM

The odd pricing of the combination is not that unusual. Indeed, Logos seems to thrive on good package prices, with individual resources not as attractive. A single item can be more than the combination of several.

Regarding the upgrade, Logos doesn't have a 'credit' for what you already bought, if it's in the upgrade. However, their sales folks often looking to get you to upgrade and sometimes offer you a credit, especially if you bought the item recently.

I don't know your finances; if you were serious about the upgrade (and if needed can spread the payments out), that'd be the smarter route. I'd bet the upgrade has a lot more resources that you want anyway.

Hope this helps.


Posts 979
Tom Reynolds | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 5 2011 5:48 AM

It's not very clear is it :) But on the page for it states that this resource is included in the which would lead you to think they are the same thing.

However, you would be best to save your pennies. It will be included when the calculate how much to charge you for the upgrade but the discount will be less than $80. On a related note, although I don't know how much it will cost for you to upgrade to the scholar's library I hope that it doesn't take you two years. It's definitely worth having more resources. Perhaps you are waiting for Logos 5 ;)

Posts 6483
Forum MVP
Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 5 2011 5:51 AM

Rachel, if DMB has not answered your question, then give Logos a call and ask your quesiton. One of the sales rep can also give you the most bank for your buck.

Everything ever written in Religion and Theology formatted for Logos Bible Software.Logos Youtube Channel

Posts 8967
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 5 2011 8:38 AM

Rachel Collins:
I'm brand new to all this - I found Logos when getting ready to do Precept Bible studies, and I'm loving it.

Hi Rachel,

When a product description page says "this resource is included in the following collections.."

  it is the exact same resource and you will get the same content.

Most collections are offered at big savings off the individual prices. Strange though it seems, sometimes the whole collection is cheaper than one included title. Such is the case with Wuests and many more. Look at these collections and the individual prices.  You save a lot when you buy in bulk.

Violence and the Bible Collection (2 vols.)   $69.95   vs  $219.95
   Violence in the New Testament   $39.95
   Sanctified Aggression: Legacies of Biblical and Post-Biblical Vocabularies of Violence  $180.00

Theology and Doctrine Collection (16 vols.)  $209.95     vs    $1454.85
    God and the Future: Wolfhart Pannenberg's Eschatological Doctrine of God $156
    Aquinas on Doctrine: A Critical Introduction  $168
    Faith in the Millennium $180
    Forgiveness in Context: Theology and Psychology in Creative Dialogue  $156
    Captured by the Crucified: The Practical Theology of Austin Farrer $32.95
    Ascension and Ecclesia  $72
    The Gift of the World: An Introduction to the Theology of Dumitru Staniloae $41.95
    Justification: The Heart of the Christian Faith  $72
    Barth's Moral Theology: Human Action in Barth’s Thought  $84
    The Shape of Pneumatology: Studies in the Doctrine of the Holy Spirit  $72
    Naming the Silences: God, Medicine, and the Problem of Suffering  $49.95
    Creatio Ex Nihilo: The Doctrine of ‘Creation out of Nothing’ in Early Christian Thought  $72
    Resurrection  $70
    Studies in Early Christology $84
    The Future as God's Gift: Explorations in Christian Eschatology  $72
    The Doctrine of Creation: Essays in Dogmatics, History and Philosophy  $72



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Posts 29
RMC | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 5 2011 8:54 AM

Thanks so much.  Crazy that its even offered as a separate purchase when the collection is cheaper than the individual resource lol - makes me wonder why on earth anyone would buy it separately lol.

 I'll try to be patient and wait until I can upgrade to the scholar's library.  I'm just getting the hang of using Logos for study (thanks to whoever had posted the inductive study layouts - they were VERY helpful!), and trying to discover which resources I actually use and which ones end up being forgotten - I'm trying to figure out if I really need to upgrade or if my desire to upgrade is just feeding my book-buying habit lol.

Thanks again!!  Big Smile

Posts 846
Eric Weiss | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 5 2011 9:12 AM

Rachel Collins:


I'm brand new to all this - I found Logos when getting ready to do Precept Bible studies, and I'm loving it.  I'm still working on building my library, using some resources I've been made familiar with.

Right now I have the Bible Study library, and I'm adding a few things that have been recommended to me - one of them is Wuest's word studies.

Take this for what it's worth, but Wuest may not be the best or wisest investment for your Greek word studies $$. His NT translation misrepresents Greek verbal aspect - e.g., Romans 12:1:

"I therefore beg of you, please, brethren, through the instrumentality of the aforementioned mercies of God, by a once-for-all presentation to place your bodies at the disposal of God, a sacrifice, a living one, a holy one, well-pleasing, your rational sacred service, [rational, in that this service is performed by the exercise of the mind]."

Schreiner (BECNT, Romans) rightly says:

"The summons to present (παραστῆσαι) oneself wholly to God (cf. 6:13, 19), therefore, must not be severed from the prevenient grace of God, for it is based on it and flows from it. The infinitive following παρακαλῶ functions as an imperative and should be construed as a command. The aorist form of the imperative is occasionally adduced to support the idea that such total commitment to God is a definitive once-for-all act that should never be repeated, or is the process by which one attains entire sanctification (see the helpful article by Maddox 1981; cf. D. Peterson 1993: 281). This is a gross misreading of the aorist tense, which does not inherently denote once-for-all action. Whether the aorist signifies an action that occurs only once is indicated by other contextual factors (see Stagg 1972). No such contextual factors are present here."

Wuest also presents now-discredited distinctions between words - e.g., agapaô ("Do you have a love for me called out of your heart by my preciousness to you, a devotional love that impels you to sacrifice yourself for me?") vs. phileô ("Do you have a friendly feeling and affection for me?") in John 21. D. A. Carson (Pillar NT Commentary, John) explains:

Some expositions of these verses turn on the distribution of the two different verbs for ‘love’ that appear. When Jesus asks the question the first two times, ‘Do you love me?’, the verb is agapaō; Peter responds with ‘I love you’ (phileō). The third time, however, Jesus himself uses phileō; and still Peter cannot bring himself to use more than the same. Commonly it is argued that agapaō is the stronger form of ‘to love’, but so powerfully has Peter had his old self-confidence expunged from him that the most he will claim is the weaker form—even when Jesus draws attention to the point, using the weaker form himself when he asks the question for the third time. This accounts for the distinction the niv maintains between ‘truly love’ and ‘love’.18

This will not do, for at least the following reasons:

(1) We have already seen that the two verbs are used interchangeably in this Gospel. The expression ‘beloved disciple’, more literally ‘disciple whom Jesus loved ’, can be based on either verb (cf. notes on 20:2). The Father loves the Son—and both verbs serve (3:35; 5:20). Jesus loved Lazarus—and again both verbs serve (11:5, 36).

(2) No reliable distinction can be based on the lxx. For instance, Jacob’s preferential love for Joseph is expressed with both verbs (Gn. 37:3, 4). When Amnon incestuously rapes his sister Tamar, both verbs can be used to refer to his ‘love’ (2 Sam. 13). Despite one verb for ‘love’ in the Hebrew text of Proverbs 8:17, the lxx uses both agapaō and phileō.

(3) Convincing evidence has been advanced that the verb agapaō was coming into prominence throughout Greek literature from about the fourth century BC onward, as one of the standard verbs for ‘to love’. One of the reasons for this change is that phileō has taken on the additional meaning ‘to kiss’, in some contexts.19 In other words, agapaō does not come into play because it is a peculiarly sacred word.

(4) Even in the New Testament, agapaō is not always distinguished by a good object: Demas regrettably ‘loved’ the present age (2 Tim. 4:10).

(5) Nor does it help to argue, with Hendriksen (2. 494–500), that because the total range of meaning of each verb is not the same as that of the other (e.g.agapaō never means ‘to kiss’), therefore there is necessarily some distinction to be made here. But this conclusion is invalid. All agree that synonyms enjoy differences of association, nuance and emotional colouring within their total semantic range. ‘But within any one individual passage these differences do not amount to a distinction of real theological reference: they do not specify a difference in the kind of love referred to.’20

(6) Amongst those who insist a distinction between the two verbs is to be maintained in each verse, there is no agreement. Thus, Trench21 insists agapaō is philanthropic and altruistic, but without emotional attachment, and therefore much too cold for Peter’s affection. That is why the apostle prefers phileō. By contrast, for Westcott (2. 367) agapaō denotes the higher love that will in time come to be known as the distinctively Christian love, while Peter cannot bring himself to profess more than ‘the feeling of natural love’, phileō. Bruce (p. 405) wisely comments: ‘When two such distinguished Greek scholars (both, moreover, tending to argue from the standards of classical Greek) see the significance of the synonyms so differently, we may wonder if indeed we are intended to see such distinct significance.’

(7) By now it has become clear that the Evangelist constantly uses minor variations for stylistic reasons of his own (cf. Morris, SFG, pp. 293–319). This is confirmed by the present passage. In addition to the two words for ‘love’, John resorts to three other pairs: boskō and poimainō (‘feed’ and ‘take care of’ the sheep), arnia and probata (‘la0mbs’ and ‘sheep’), and oida and ginōskō (both rendered ‘you know’ in v. 17). These have not stirred homiletical imaginations; it is difficult to see why the first pair should.22

In other words, if you rely on Wuest, you will find yourself at times learning and making false assumptions about the meaning of the Greek text, or being presented with exaggerated or incorrect meanings or significances.

If you yourself can't work directly with the Greek text and use modern lexical tools (e.g., BDAG) or Logos to do word studies of occurrences and uses in the NT, LXX, Philo, Josephus, and the Apostolic Fathers, etc. (see, e.g., Heiser and Cisneros Learn to Use Biblical Greek and Hebrew with Logos Bible Software for doing such studies without relying initially on lexicons) - i.e., contemporary and Koinê literature - you won't know whether Wuest is making a valid statement or an invalid one, and you'll end up believing and repeating and propagating the same errors that people who depend on Strong's and Wuest make when they teach "what it means in the original Greek."

A popular book that IMO and from my perusal has instances, like Wuest, of what one should NOT claim about what "the original Greek" says/means is Rick Renner's Sparkling Gems From The Greek: 365 Greek Word Studies For Every Day Of The Year To Sharpen Your Understanding Of God's Word.

Optimistically Egalitarian (Galatians 3:28)

Posts 767
Alan Charles Gielczyk | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 5 2011 9:13 AM

I am guessing it will cost you in the range of $300+ to upgrade, to pay $80 for one resource seems not to make sense. Why pay a quarter of the upgrade price? You can upgrade and break the cost into payments up to 12 months. There is a $5 a month fee but if you are willing to do this you can start enjoying your new resources immediately. I did some quick calculations and if you make payments for 6 months it will cost you about $60 a month. Doing it over a year will be about $32 a month. I encourage you to upgrade and make payments. Just FYI, you can upgrade to the silver package for about $65 a month over 12 months. I don't work for Logos but strongly believe in the value of the base packages.

Posts 4625
Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 5 2011 2:05 PM

Peace to you, Eric!


                 Thanks for your post!    I think it was well-spoken and that it will be helpful to many.

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 28
Fred H. | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 6 2011 10:03 AM

Sorry but I don't believe streching out payments over a year is very wise.  $300 over 12 months would be a good deal without the fee.  However, if you are going to pay the $5/month fee that would cost you $60 for the year.  How much sense does it make to spend $60 in fees when the original product you are looking at is $80.  You can call it a fee if you want but that comes to 20% interest....some people get arrested for charging that much.

Logos has been a very good tool.  But I have to say their marketing and pricing seems to be a bit deceptive and confusing.  Just put good, fair prices out there instead of running gimics and games.  Who has the time for those things?  Even looking at their upgrade option today.  "We can't reveal the secret sauce" for coming up with your upgrade price.  Really??  I've often put product in my cart and then just have a really bad taste in my mouth and I don't buy it.  I thank God for this tool, but I'm sorry they sell and market their product the way they do.

God bless you all, Fred

In His Peace, Fred

 “We love because he first loved us.” (1 John 4:19, ESV)

Posts 29
RMC | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 6 2011 11:04 AM

I agree - the base packages are wonderful, and a fantastic value.  And I do think there's enough in the Scholar's package that I would find useful to make it worth the investment. This was the package I had originally wanted, but settled for the more affordable Bible Study library until I could see how I would actually end up using Logos - I didn't want a $600+ piece of software sitting on my computer that was more complex than I could use.  I'm with Fred about the payment plans though.  I'd much rather just wait and pay for something when I can afford it than pay an extra $5 a month.  Of course, I'm no pastor or scholar or anything - just a mom who loves to study the Bible and has unbelievably by God's grace been given opportunities to facilitate Bible study discussions every so often - so there's no rush for me to acquire resources. Admittedly, so much in Logos is far above my head for now, although I'm learning quickly.  And I'm quickly becoming addicted to adding resources LOL - these sales recently have been very, very tempting :)

I should be able to save my "allowance" LOL and get the basic scholar's library within the next 6 months to a year or so - I have enough in my current library to get me through until then Geeked.  I really do appreciate the feedback on Wuest.  This was a resource I became familiar with during a training, which is why I was interested in it. I used Wuest alongside other word study resources, and this is actually the last of those resources that I've been taught how to use that I haven't already purchased.  Someday, by God' grace, I'd LOVE to learn Hebrew and Greek.  I can tell you that just doing basic word studies in comparing translations has made me want even more to see for myself what the Greek really means (Such as artios in 2 Timothy 3:17 - perfect vs. adequate vs. complete - all of which give a different sense in English). Maybe once the kids are in school I'll have a chance to get into language study Smile.  

Thanks so much to everyone for your feedback - it's been very helpful :)

Posts 8967
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 6 2011 12:40 PM

Rachel Collins:
 I can tell you that just doing basic word studies in comparing translations has made me want even more to see for myself what the Greek really means (Such as artios in 2 Timothy 3:17 - perfect vs. adequate vs. complete - all of which give a different sense in English). Maybe once the kids are in school I'll have a chance to get into language study Smile

I don't know if you are familiar with the Community Pricing and Pre-Pub programs but click on these links and see how you can save on new Logos resources.

Logos is about to release a new video series that shows how a user can do word studies without knowing Greek or Hebrew. The Scholar's base packages include several resources that can make your study efforts really pay off. You do not have to become an expert in Greek or Hebrew to begin gleaning. You can pre-order the video series for $79.95. Check it out here:

Learn to Do Word Studies with Logos Bible Software    watch some of the sample clips.

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Posts 846
Eric Weiss | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 6 2011 1:36 PM

Rachel Collins:
Someday, by God' grace, I'd LOVE to learn Hebrew and Greek.  I can tell you that just doing basic word studies in comparing translations has made me want even more to see for myself what the Greek really means (Such as artios in 2 Timothy 3:17 - perfect vs. adequate vs. complete - all of which give a different sense in English). Maybe once the kids are in school I'll have a chance to get into language study Smile.  

Thanks so much to everyone for your feedback - it's been very helpful :)

BDAG: ἄρτιος, ία, ον (Hom.+; Epict. 1, 28, 3; IG XIV, 889, 7 ἄ. εἴς τι; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 12 [Stone p. 18]; Ath., R. 77, 4 ἀρτίως; Philo) pert. to being well fitted for some function, complete, capable, proficient=able to meet all demands 2 Ti 3:17.—DELG s.v. ἄρτι. M-M. TW.

NIDNTT: ἄρτιος G787 (artios), suitable, complete, capable, sound; καταρτίζω G2936 (katartizō), put in order, restore, make complete, → prepare; καταρτισμός G2938 (katartismos), preparation, equipment; κατάρτισις G2937 (katartisis), being made complete, completion; προκαταρτίζω G4616 (prokatartizō), get ready, arrange in advance; ἐξαρτίζω G1992 (exartizō), finish, complete, equip, furnish.

CL artios and its derivatives come from the root ar-which indicates appropriateness, suitability, usefulness, aptitude (cf. ōarty, to arrange, season; ōartyn, to put in order; Lat. aptare, adaptare, congruere). artios accordingly means suitable, appropriate, fitting a situation or requirements; hence also respectively, normal, perfect, sound in physical, intellectual, moral and religious respects. In mathematics it is used to describe what is straight and to denote even numbers (as against perissos, odd).

The oldest derivative in cl. Gk. (apart from the Homeric ōarty) is the vb. ōkatartiz, to put in order, restore, furnish, prepare, equip. These various meanings have a common origin in the basic meaning to make suitable, make fitting. katartismos and katartisis mean → restoration.

OT The LXX uses ōkatartiz 19 times, and it stands for no fewer than 9 different Heb. words. On 7 occasions the vb. renders the Aram. kelal, to complete. It is found in this sense only in Ezr. in connexion with the building of the wall and the temple by the post-exilic community (Ezr. 4:12f., 16; 5:3, 9, 11; 6:14). The various meanings of the vb. range from to set up, establish, in a literal sense (Ps. 74:16 [73:16]; Heb. kûn); and of the righteous man’s steps to hold fast to Yahweh’s paths, human “goings” (Ps. 17:5 [16:5]; Heb. tāmaḵ); to sayings about God’s activity, to equip (Ps. 40:6 [39:6] RSV), to restore (Ps. 68:9 [67:9]; Heb. kûn). Frequently Yahweh is the subject of sentences which refer to his work of establishing and founding. Other instances are Exod. 15:17 (Heb. pā‘al, make); Ps. 8:2 (Heb. yāsaḏ, found, establish); Ps. 11:4 (10:4) (Heb. šāṯh, foundation); Ps. 18:33 (17:33) (Heb. šāwâhh, make like); Ps. 29:9 (28:9) (Heb. ḥûl, whirl); Ps. 68:28 (67:28) (Heb. pā‘al); Ps. 80:15 (79:15) (Heb. kānan, cf. kûn); Ps. 89:37 (88:37) (Heb. kûn). artiōs is used in the LXX only as a temporal adv. meaning until now (2 Sam. 15:34).

NT Of this group of words only ōkatartiz is used at all frequently in the NT (13 times), while artios (2 Tim. 3:17), katartisis (2 Cor. 13:9), and katartismos (Eph. 4:12) occur only once each.

1. At Matt. 4:21 and Mk. 1:19, ōkatartiz is found in the secular sense of repairing fishing nets. In addition to this, the NT also uses ōkatartiz in the same way as the LXX: the meaning here is to → prepare (Heb. 10:5, a citation of Ps. 40:6; Matt. 21:16, citing Ps. 8:3 LXX; Rom. 9:22), to establish, to form (Heb. 11:3), to equip (Heb. 13:21; 1 Pet. 5:10). As in the OT, God is the subject of sentences which express his power to strengthen and establish.

2. Of particular importance are those passages in which artios and its derivatives are used in connexion with the preparation and equipment of the believer and the church, for the service of God and their fellow-men. The adj. artios occurs only at 2 Tim. 3:17, together with the perfect pass. participle exērtismenos. In the OT → scriptures the church of the New Testament has an indispensable, God-given guide to living, through which the man of God may achieve an appropriate state, viz. be equipped for every work of love: “so that the man who belongs to God may be efficient and equipped for good work of every kind” (NEB). artios here does not imply perfection, as was originally thought, doubtless because of the variant reading teleios, perfect, in Codex D. Rather it refers to the state of being equipped for a delegated task. So too, in Eph. 4:12 katartismos refers to the preparation of the church for becoming perfect, but not to this perfection itself, as can be seen from the use of teleios (complete, mature; → Goal), hēlikia (stature; → Age, Stature), and plērōma (→ fullness) in v. 13 (cf. also 1 Cor. 1:10). The terms artios and katartismos thus have not so much a qualitative meaning as a functional one. This standard, hortatory use of artios and its derivatives arises from the fact that all imperatives are founded on the one indicative, i.e. the firm promise of salvation. The life of the saints is to correspond to the grace given, and this itself is the standard to which they are to aspire. It is on this ground that in Gal. 6:1 and 2 Cor. 13:11 ōkatartiz can mean to restore; in 1 Thess. 3:10 to make up, to put in a fit state, to perfect. katartisis in 2 Cor. 13:9 also comes into this category. Like the verbal form in v. 11, it should be translated with the NEB, “that all may be put right with you”, as a reference to the restoration and perfection of the church.

3. At 2 Cor. 9:5 ōprokatartiz is used of arranging or gathering and making ready the collection (→ Poor, art. πτωχός NT 4); and at Acts 21:5 we find ōexartiz in egeneto hēmas exartisai tas hēmeras, “our time was up” (Arndt, 273), or ended as prescribed (cf. G. Delling, TDNT I 476).

R. Schippers

Optimistically Egalitarian (Galatians 3:28)

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