16 tons, and what do you get?

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Bill Moore | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Sep 9 2011 1:31 PM

About to pull the trigger on a large Logos order (NICOT/NT, AYBD, ISBE, Greek NT Discourse Bundle), but anything including the NICOT/NT would have to be a 12-month payment plan for me, and if I'm going to do the payment plan, I may as well add some prime resources to take advantage of the $5/month administrative fee for the entire purchase.

But it's not too late. I haven't given my sales rep the go ahead (yet!), though there are good discounts on everything, and we know about the NICOT/NT discount through September 12. In the meantime, this song keeps running through my mind. Smile

Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 9 2011 1:49 PM

The YouTube video that runs through my head when you say "16 tons" is this one:

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Bill Moore | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 9 2011 2:01 PM

Hilarious, Rosie. Actually, it's the "I owe my soul to the company store" that was on my mind, but your image makes me even more hesitant to follow through with the order. Wink

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 9 2011 3:26 PM

Bill Moore:

About to pull the trigger on a large Logos order (NICOT/NT, AYBD, ISBE, Greek NT Discourse Bundle), but anything including the NICOT/NT would have to be a 12-month payment plan for me, and if I'm going to do the payment plan, I may as well add some prime resources to take advantage of the $5/month administrative fee for the entire purchase.

But it's not too late. I haven't given my sales rep the go ahead (yet!), though there are good discounts on everything, and we know about the NICOT/NT discount through September 12. In the meantime, this song keeps running through my mind. Smile

I have all of these. If you're looking to save, you may not want both AYBD and ISBE (I assume that's the revised 1979 version, not the older one, right?), though they are both good resources.

Despite the promises, I've not found the Discourse stuff much help. I just don't get it. I know it's supposed to be something really great, innovative, etc., and I'm trying to figure out why, but so far, it just seems to state the obvious. Maybe it's just me, or the way I work with the text.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Bill Moore | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 9 2011 3:41 PM

You know, Richard, you may have a point about the Discourse material. I'm trying to decide whether working with it will improve my biblical languages that I have let languish or will simply further complicate the matter. I may drop that. I wish I could get others to chime in, but I didn't get much response to a thread on the forthcoming Introducing NT Discourse Grammar: Video Series, the release of which has been delayed to 9/13.

And, yes, the ISBE is the 1979-95 version. Adding it increased the monthly payment by only $8.33, and I think it will prove useful.

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 9 2011 4:13 PM

Bill Moore:

You know, Richard, you may have a point about the Discourse material. I'm trying to decide whether working with it will improve my biblical languages that I have let languish or will simply further complicate the matter. I may drop that. I wish I could get others to chime in, but I didn't get much response to a thread on the forthcoming Introducing NT Discourse Grammar: Video Series, the release of which has been delayed to 9/13.

I hope I'm not the only one who has anything to say about this. I know some find it very helpful. Discourse grammar uses some different terms than 'normal' grammar, so I'm not sure if it will or won't help you with Greek. I just opened my Discourse Greek NT again and don't see anything there that's particularly complex or subtle, but it's not a Greek grammar in the classic sense either (at least not that I can see).

Discourse analysis is a bit of a new way of talking about communication. But I don't know enough about it to make any really intelligent comments. Neither do I know enough about it to evaluate whether it's worth the price or not. As it stands for me now, I don't see the point.

I've asked for help in understanding how to work with these resources, particularly how they might benefit my message preparation. So far, I'm still at a loss, though I wish I weren't.

 

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Is Mebin | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 9 2011 6:33 PM

Bill Moore:
"I owe my soul to the company store"

Bill, my friend, I totally understand.  I have just finished all my repayments...which included NICOT/NT.  I paid $1200 at the X-mas sale though...that is so annoyingAngry

And I have been praying about starting another plan to get some of the more expensive products.  I am leaving AYB at the moment, but it will be the next on my list.  The 3 things I want now are all bundles:  http://www.logos.com/product/4655/early-judaism-bundle http://www.logos.com/product/4654/hebrew-bible-bundle & http://www.logos.com/product/4653/ancient-near-eastern-bundle.

And it was such a relief when my last plan(s) were finished...lol!

I already own the Greek Discourse bundle (I don't really understand it yet), and am hoping the video series coming out will shed some light on it...allbeit, for my hobby purposes (I'm no scholar or preacher).

Blessings in your decision.

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Bill Moore | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 9 2011 6:52 PM

Is Mebin:

Bill Moore:
"I owe my soul to the company store"

Bill, my friend, I totally understand.  I have just finished all my repayments...which included NICOT/NT.  I paid $1200 at the X-mas sale though...that is so annoyingAngry

And I have been praying about starting another plan to get some of the more expensive products.  I am leaving AYB at the moment, but it will be the next on my list.  The 3 things I want now are all bundles:  http://www.logos.com/product/4655/early-judaism-bundle http://www.logos.com/product/4654/hebrew-bible-bundle & http://www.logos.com/product/4653/ancient-near-eastern-bundle.

And it was such a relief when my last plan(s) were finished...lol!

I already own the Greek Discourse bundle (I don't really understand it yet), and am hoping the video series coming out will shed some light on it...allbeit, for my hobby purposes (I'm no scholar or preacher).

Blessings in your decision.

Wow! You put me to shame with all my dithering about my "little" bundle. Smile Seriously, this is where the $5/month administration fee which Logos has is really generous on their part. A lot of sets would be otherwise unafforadable. Then, too, the fee works out well for Logos by selling sets that would have gone unbought.

Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC

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Michael Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 9 2011 7:08 PM

Bill Moore:
You know, Richard, you may have a point about the Discourse material. I'm trying to decide whether working with it will improve my biblical languages

Bill,

You make me jealous.  I am paying off monthly my last Logos debt.  When I finish I am sure that I will order more, but not until.  I want that Anchor yale Bible Dictionary badly.  Personally, I want the ICC too.

Hope you enjoy and benefit from all your purchases.

I am not negative about the Discourse material, but I agree with Richard.  I have found two things that really work with keeping up with Greek.  First, I try to memorize a verse from the Greek NT regularly - one or two a month.  Second, I try to set aside 30 minutes three days a week to study and refresh Greek Grammar.  I am not sure there is a shortcut for Greek.

Mike

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

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Bill Moore | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 9 2011 7:19 PM

Thanks, Mike. More shame. Embarrassed

I deleted the Discourse video from my pre-pubs and am not going to order the Discourse bundle. It will just sit unused on the virtual shelf in my computer for a good while, I am sure. I still haven't gone through the Learn to Use Biblical Hebrew and Greek in Logos videos, so that's next on the agenda.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 9 2011 7:47 PM

Lexham Discourse Greek New Testament (and Lexham High Definition New Testament) include Emphasis highlighting (shows Greek words that have been moved from nominal word order for Emphasis).  Likewise background highlighting shows clauses with relevant background information. Currently not have Greek paradigms memorized so lack ability to sight read Greek with correct word parsing; thus parts of Greek New Testament are Greek to me.

Wiki Extended Tips for Visual Filters => Examples of visual filters includes a screen capture showing 10 visual filters, including 1 for Discourse Analysis and 5 for Logos Greek Morphology.  Thankful Logos can combine visual filter highlighting showing discourse and grammatical usage.

Personally working on My LDGNT Glossary personal book, follow-up to Suggestion: Discourse Greek NT more customizable discussion with reminders and questions about Discourse Analysis markings (for one line pop-ups):

Keep Smiling Smile

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Alan Macgregor | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 9 2011 8:09 PM

Folks,

I think you'll find the videos very useful if Steve Runge's blogs are anything to go by.

However, the best resource to read first is A Discourse Grammar of the Greek New Testament. It really helps to give you a handle on Discourse Analysis as it sorts the myriad features into a workable taxonomy.

Discourse Analysis is a useful approach to handling and understanding the New Testament at the micro-level. And the Lexham series does all the painstaking analysis for you!

Have a look at how it works in Mark 5 with the interleaved narrative of Jairus' daughter and the woman with the issue of blood. Discourse analysis really helps you to see how the narrative structure works and helps Mark's audience follow and understand what is happening with the use of participles and verb tenses.

I just hope that the OT series will go into production soon!

Every blessing

Alan

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Bill Moore | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 9 2011 8:18 PM

Thanks, Alan, for your perspective. Always appreciated. After I go through the using biblical Hebrew and Greek in Logos videos, I'll give the Lexham material another look. I'm not writing it off, and I'll look forward to yours and others' input as questions about it arise in the Logos forums.

Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC

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GregW | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 10 2011 2:12 PM

Michael Childs:
I have found two things that really work with keeping up with Greek. 

 

I know the problem.  I set up a Reading Plan on the SBLGNT to read 20 verses a day, five days a week, then increased it to 30 verses a day, and am going to up to a chapter a day before too long.  I just find it more heartening (and edifying) to deal with the text directly than to plough through grammar.  At the moment I'm within a week of completing all the gospels, so there is also a sense of achievement in it that I never got from studying participles (although I've had to go back and read up Wallace on participles to deal with the text as well!)

The other advantage of using the Reading Plan on Logos is that you can get the parsing, lexical information, etc by hovering if you are struggling with a particular word.


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Bill Moore | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 10 2011 4:11 PM

GregW:

Michael Childs:
I have found two things that really work with keeping up with Greek. 

I know the problem.  I set up a Reading Plan on the SBLGNT to read 20 verses a day, five days a week, then increased it to 30 verses a day, and am going to up to a chapter a day before too long.  I just find it more heartening (and edifying) to deal with the text directly than to plough through grammar.  At the moment I'm within a week of completing all the gospels, so there is also a sense of achievement in it that I never got from studying participles (although I've had to go back and read up Wallace on participles to deal with the text as well!)

The other advantage of using the Reading Plan on Logos is that you can get the parsing, lexical information, etc by hovering if you are struggling with a particular word.

Good points, Greg. Thanks for sharing.

Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC

Posts 101
JR Woods | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 16 2012 8:32 AM

Richard DeRuiter:
Discourse analysis is a bit of a new way of talking about communication.

Richard, I realize I'm on the outside of this conversation looking in, but I realized that I had the same questions about the discourse materials when I first started studying the issue too, that's why I thought it best to share what I've found, if it helps, great.

After many conversations with Runge, his collegue Dr. Levinsohn, along with Dr. Porter in McMaster Divinity, Ontario and reading their materials while applying their concepts to the Greek NT (for e.g., Runge, Discourse Grammar; Levinsohn, Discourse Features of Greek NT, Porter, Verbal Aspect of The Greek NT, and a few of Porter's source materials--MAK Halliday, Functional Grammar, Language as Social Semiotic) I can identify with your statement about it being a new way of talking about communication, yes, but only as applied to the Greek NT. Discourse methods of studying communication have been used for decades when it comes to issues of Linguistics when translating one language to another (check out SIL's website, Summer Institute of Linguistics http://www.ethnologue.com/show_catalog.asp?by=all), and since the last 50 years of Bible study have been inundated with Theologians rendering the Koine Greek of the NT, Linguistics has only had its fair shake for a short while now. For me, I have come to trust the conclusions of Linguists much more than those of theologians, only because the Linguist's are more consistently explainable across the board, and always have their conclusions firmly grounded in how the text would have hit the audience, rather than theology informing the text what it should be saying.

For a short (10 page), excellent, simple, and straight-forward approach to the actual benefits of discourse methods on the exegesis itself of the Greek NT (he calls it "discourse critical methods") I could refer you to Robert Bergen's article, "Text As A Guide To Authorial Intention: An Introduction To Discourse Criticism," JETS 30, no. 3 (Sept 1987): 325-335. This very brief, but powerful, article really will open your eyes, as it did mine. Also, the IVP dictionaries have this topic all over the place (just set them as a collection and search for "discourse analysis" to see the 72 results in these dictionaries alone) The deepest and most valuable of these I found to be DJ Watson's section (and bibliography) on "Structuralism and Discourse Analysis" (no pages), where he discusses the trends of recent scholarship's shift away from the "inadequacies of the historical-critical methods," and toward an "interdisciplinary" approach that takes more of the first-century variables into account to render the text from a linguistic (rather than theological) origin.

I only recommend these to you because they have helped me so much in understanding the criticality of understanding the NT materials as a social discourse between participants in the first century Palestinian/Greco-Roman environment who were trying to build, and handle a vastly expanding socio-religious innovation--i.e., Christianity. Discourse studies have deepened my understanding of the text beyond what I thought possible by informing me how that audience would have received the words of our NT docs.   

Hope that helps.  

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 16 2012 9:10 AM

JR Woods:
Discourse studies have deepened my understanding of the text beyond what I thought possible by informing me how that audience would have received the words of our NT docs. 

Can you give any examples?

I don't have access to JETS and I'm not sure which, in that list of books you point to at ethnologue would be helpful.

I do understand that the Bible is primarily social communication, what I don't understand is how the discourse NT helps me understand a particular passage, beyond the other tools available? In other words, what's unique about discourse grammar that is helpful for Bible study and sermon preparation?

Don't get the idea that I'm opposed to discourse grammar. I'm not. I just don't understand how it's helpful. I'd like to know.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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JR Woods | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 16 2012 10:18 AM

Richard DeRuiter:
understand how it's helpful.

You have access to JETS through the theological Journals Logos sells, that is the best source. Also, many JSNTS articles touch this issue.

As far as the SIL resources, you're getting into some actual linguistic resources there. The IVP dictionary article is also great for not only a background and usage of it, but also a super bibliography of resources. Just as a side, Discourse analysis is predominantly a "top-down" approach to Scripture as communication, not a "bottom-up" approach. The difference is that bottom-up approaches try to build up the meaning of the discourse (i.e., Mark's gospel, or Paul's letter to Romans, et al.) out of the combination of individual word, and clause meanings. That's the reason you'll find many of the historical-critical approaches asserting that "this or that element is out of order," or they'll assert that "this certain author doesn't use this word very well." But the bottom-down approach sees the whole of discourse first, and works out the parts and pieces from the panoramic view. That's why Runge's material (Discourse Grammar, not Discourse Analysis, see his blog site) helps readers see how the pieces function in the whole, because he has already worked out "the whole" in his background research, how they fit in the bigger picture. So the real communication for any exegete comes from telling your audience not what "this, or that" word means by a detached, historical study of word definitions that may have nothing to do with how the author is using that specific word, in that specific context, for his specific purpose (en route to his bigger picture goals), but you would communicate to your audience how what word/phrase functions within the author's frame of use (i.e., Runge's, LDGNT) .That way, your congregation sees the NT for what it is--how the words/phrases on that page functioned to accomplish the author's goals.

It helps with understanding authorial intent (linguistic based, not theological based) and communicating that to your people, a good example is in John's record of Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus. (Jn 3) Lots of commentaries spend a great deal of time on the Theologically prominent theme of "the kingdom". (but was this John's prominent issue?) Most commentators get the sense that there is some type of argument, or debate here, but struggle to verify this linguistically, and so are left to convey this through descriptive impressions.

The ABSOLUTELY most helpful discussion of this from a discourse perspective is Levinsohn's, Discourse Features of the Greek NT, check Amazon, (along with my review there) where Levinsohn outlines how certain phrases, "ἀπεκρίθη ... (O εἶπεν O) αὐτῷ" (as opposed to the usual, " Normal 0 false false false EN-US X-NONE AR-SA MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 εἶπεν" for reported speech, (Check Runge's "Redundant Quotative Frame") are John's way of communicating the bigger picture of Jesus' "taking control" of the conversation with material (about the second birth) that challenged Nicodemus and his later rebuke. As only one example, this allows OUR readers to process rightly the kind of tone, intent, and placement John is using for each part and piece that make-up the whole of his discourse without spending time down individual word-study rabbit trails that assert something about the word which the author is not using in context. Runge's material, when consulted with his Introduction material help us see the depth, gives us this Functional linguistic sense. 

Because shifting our exegetical methodology from bottom-up, to a top-down approach changes everything, there is no easy answer, because we have been filled with easy answers for so long (easy, bottom-up approaches) that our mindset struggles with even acknowledging there is a bigger picture of discourse. Discourse studies reveal what the AUTHOR is doing, by separating us from what our THEOLOGY wants it to do.

In conclusion, you really need to read the JETS article. I cannot hope to accomplish in a single blog entry, what a scholar studies in over ten pages of material and others through entire volumes. It just speaks to how much we need to humble ourselves in allowing God to challenge our entire methodology and start over research-wise. I've done it, countless others have also, and with tremendous rewards.

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 16 2012 10:25 AM

Richard DeRuiter:
I don't have access to JETS

You do, at least if somebody did the research work and gave you a quote with volume number, quarter and page AND you can live with bad-quality pdf: http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/30/30-3/30-3-pp327-336_JETS.pdf  

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JR Woods | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 16 2012 10:36 AM

Oh, and I almost forgot, S.E. Porter has some great material in these collections:

Sheffield Reader collection (STELLAR!! for this topic, and very easy to read)

McMaster Collection.

Check these out and you'll begin to see the issues that Discourse studies are raising through Socially Functional Studies of the Greek NT text.

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