Ambassador Program Needs Revamping

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JR Woods | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Sep 20 2011 12:43 PM

This program needs some serious revamping. I have led over 20 people individually to purchase Logos library base packages and thousands of dollars of other books while I have been attending seminary. One seminary professor has made Logos mandatory for all his expository preaching students because of my sheer persistence in working beyond his false impressions about "bible software". 

I was excited to sign up for the ambassador program because the operators at Logos told me about the ability to offer the same discounts as the website as well as receive book credit for these purchases. The prospect could not be a better option for a seminary student! However, only after these purchases was I then told that I could not receive book credit if they are students using the academic discount. To which I then have to ask, do my efforts in seminary deserve nothing? After the countless hours I've spent training these students in all the wonderful benefits of having their own library and never needing to scrap for library resources and all the benefits from the features of the program itself, do I deserve no reward?

I understand the ins and outs of running a business and how the company needs to make money. With two degrees in business, I'm well aware of that fact. I also understand that the academic program is the deepest discount possible for people seeking an education. Got it. Logos will not go broke by rewarding book credit to those who are working hard to sell thousands of dollars worth of their product in seminaries and churches. Logos has made, and will continue to make a lot of money from my efforts. Literally tens of thousands of dollars (no exaggeration) have been generated in sales for their company because of guys like me. I don't even request to get paid in real dollars like any other salesman. Book credit in this  instance is the right thing to do.  This ambassador program NEEDS to change.

I will never stop recommending the software because it's the right thing to do for students. I will never stop leading people, professors, students, church members, and librarians (they are the hardest ones to deal with) to Logos' website, products, and services because it is the right thing to do.  I cannot possibly be the only one in this boat and it is simply wrong to deny simple book credit to people who work this hard to promote, sell, and train for Logos.

All I ask of anyone is to do the right thing. Do the right thing Logos: revamp this program.

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 20 2011 1:38 PM

JR Woods:
After the countless hours I've spent training these students in all the wonderful benefits of having their own library and never needing to scrap for library resources and all the benefits from the features of the program itself, do I deserve no reward?

I certainly hope not. While Logos may make little through academic pricing, you are still introducing students to Logos Bible Software and they will most likely become life-time buyers, generating many thousands of dollars of purchases well after they no longer qualify for academic pricing.

JR Woods:
However, only after these purchases was I then told that I could not receive book credit if they are students using the academic discount.

Very surprised at this policy and at it not having been made clear at the outset. If there is anywhere I'd want to do it, I'd want to encourage promoting Logos at seminaries.

I hope something can be worked out not just for you but for anyone who is 'working' for Logos.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 20 2011 3:51 PM

JR Woods:
I understand the ins and outs of running a business and how the company needs to make money. With two degrees in business, I'm well aware of that fact. I also understand that the academic program is the deepest discount possible for people seeking an education. Got it.

Don't get me wrong but I can sell a whole lot more Logos to everyone if they could buy it at academic discounts of 25% or more. I assume you bought your Logos through academic discounts while most users I know pay considerably higher prices for the same resources. I would agree with you that Logos should reward you if the new buyers you recommend actually paid regular prices for their software. But when a seminary requires Logos the discounts are so unbelievably deep, it sells itself.

A similar analogy would be selling a professional mechanic on the quality of Snap-On or Matco tools, or convincing an electrician to buy Klein tools.  Most students at seminary recognize the value of Logos as a profession-enhancing tool and would purchase it if they can afford it. The discounts they receive probably sway them as much as recommendations.

I have considered going back to seminary just for the discounts (really.) In the past I have enrolled in my local community college for the sole purpose of qualifying for academic discounts on software. A student can buy a $10,000 AutoCad suite for $500. It makes tuition look like a coffee break. Coffee

If you are willing to make 20 presentations a year and your buying customers will settle for only a 15% discount, you can become a Logos Ambassador and get 10% cash payment or 20% book credit. But when your fellow seminarians discover they could have had a 25% discount by purchasing through the academic discount, they may not be that happy with you.

If you use the Refer-A-Friend program you qualify for a $25 gift certificate but have no obligation to make "presentations." I hope you are at least getting a little referral credit on your account.

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Scott A. Lindsey | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Sep 20 2011 9:10 PM

JR, what church do you go to in Springfield?

Posts 101
JR Woods | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 21 2011 5:58 AM

Why? are you in Springfield as well?

I don't live in Springfield anymore now, I moved to VA on an Army transfer to process as a chaplain.

 

 

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JR Woods | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 21 2011 6:20 AM

I appreciate you reply,

The comparison you make about the software to mechanical tools, though does not follow only because many seminarians have misconceptions about the term "bible software". They think of a simple, closed system like Bible works that's not going to apply to much of their Christian education. Mechanics recognize the value of the tools you mentioned before I could even suggest them, giving similar discounts on these tools they would not need the coaxing, coaching, and mentoring that people need when they come to Logos.

When I say, "Logos" they always retort. . . "how much is it?" because all they know from a "bible software" (e.g.--illumina, Bible works, etc.) is that it somehow might help them understand the original language (which research shows that many Pastoral seminarians are turning away from anyway) and so do not understand the value they are receiving. I have had to come against the same misconceptions even from many professors who are recommending Bible Works (e.g.--AGTS's greek professor, some of Liberty's NT professors, Regent's many professors in the New Testament biblical studies, et al) who are actually telling students that Logos is slow, expensive, and difficult to use in comparison (i.e.--they are not trained with it). Then they have the gumption to emphasize the importance of a consistent reading plan to further their faith after school, which Bible Works cannot do.

Bottom line, Logos cannot compare to the mechanical tools because mechanics recognize the value of these tools, most of the people I have met in seminary (at least the three I've been to--AGTS, Liberty, and Regent) have too many misconceptions about us to bridge that gap.It has taken a level of persistence just to get through their assumptions and fear before I ever even get to actually train them in using it. But the payoff of doing this is tremendous.

Regarding the discounts, its similar to a retail store's "loss leader" for the company: people get huge discounts on the items discounted in school, but then become life-time customers afterwards at full or sale prices. The issue is never the money, it's always been about gaining new customers. So long as that continues to happen, the company can offer any discount they want and continue to earn a strong income. Therefore, assigning a little 20% book credit to the people who are bringing in this life-long business does little-to-nothing to their bottom line and exercises good company eithics while keeping their ambassadors happy and encouraged maintain the customer flow. I have actually had many suggest I should put on a clinic for Regent seminary. A few years of seminary translates into a lifetime of purchases--a profitable tradeoff every time.

It's never about the money, or the discounts, its always about the new customers. Money doesn't keep companies in business, contrary to pop. belief, taking care of people does, as Logos has been in the general habit of doing up to this point.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 21 2011 10:38 PM

JR Woods:
most of the people I have met in seminary (at least the three I've been to--AGTS, Liberty, and Regent) have too many misconceptions about us to bridge that gap.It has taken a level of persistence just to get through their assumptions and fear before I ever even get to actually train them in using it. But the payoff of doing this is tremendous.
I guess I took it for granted everyone preparing for the ministry already knows all about Logos.  That was an erroneous assumption on my part.

I used to live on Riberia Street in St. Augustine , Florida just a couple blocks from the Castillo de San Marcos. The smell of salt in the air is just a given. To someone in Aspen, Colorado it would be a very strange smell. My daily exposure to Logos is probably not the norm for those training for the ministry.

You have opened my eyes to a great need among the seminaries, colleges and Bible schools. Keep up the good work and maybe Logos will revamp the program. I agree with you, my initial (Libronix 3) base package purchase was small compared to everything I have added since I learned what Logos 4 can do. And I am still learning, and still buying. Big Smile

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JR Woods | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 22 2011 3:48 PM

Not only unusual, my friend, by quite privileged.

There are still people out there who are spending hours and hours just tracking down resources in

a library before they even begin research!! Let's pray for their acceptance of Logos.

Blessings,

Justin

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 23 2011 9:55 PM

JR Woods:

There are still people out there who are spending hours and hours just tracking down resources in

a library before they even begin research!! Let's pray for their acceptance of Logos.

I worked in my Bible college library when I was a student (late 1970's) and felt privileged to be surrounded by books. I had always been a bibliomaniac. Today I took my son to our local Mardel's Christian book store for a job interview. As I walked around the store looking at the books I kept seeing titles that grabbed my interest. Every time I saw one, I recognized I already have it in my Logos library. It was a strange feeling. I have traded my addiction to hard copy books for an obsession with digital books. The latter is more socially acceptable because they fit on a tiny drive I can carry in my shirt pocket. I am blessed to be living in these times and have Logos to enhance my studies. I wish all professors, students, preachers and laity could discover it too.

 

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JR Woods | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 29 2011 9:19 AM

Hey guys,

Just sold another Gold library with no book credit as a Logos Ambassador, along with about $500 of additional resources besides.

I have informed my customers of the "policy" the ambassador program has in place currently and

they will be chiming in on this forum as well.

Hope we can start assigning book credit to seminary student ambassadors pretty soon.

Hopeful,

Rev. Justin Woods

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W.M. Shelton Sr. | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 29 2011 10:06 AM

Hello Logos,

I am a product of Justin's enthusiastic obsession with the Logos system.  After spending 3 hrs in class one night, Justin spent another 90 mins, and could have gone longer, introducing those who will listen to him concerning the benefits of this software.  As a military veteran, it doesn't take me long to see the benefits of a product.

The reason, I am replying to this post, is to give a plea on behalf of people like Justin for consideration for looking into providing some incentive to those who promote your product.  I've just completed my first year of seminary school and have been a minister of the Gospel for years and I have never heard of Logos until I met Justin.  I was one who purchased a Gold base package that he referred to. 

I don't know what else to say.  I'm a customer for life as a result of Justin.  Should he and others like him be penalized for marketing this product to their friends who are seminary students. I see this as a win, win situation for everyone...more life customers for Logos and more book credit for Ambassadors.  Please consider.

Pastor Wayne

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JR Woods | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 29 2011 10:11 AM

You bring up an excellent point--the social penetration of the market.

As far as "socially acceptable" goes, I can tell you that either one depends on the crowd you're speaking to. I have been to a number of seminaries and most of the charismatic ones (e.g., AGTS, Regent) have the predominant bent (currently, anyway) toward actual books with a minority of those appealing to Logos. Other seminaries have it switched.

As believers begin to experience the benefits that come from having your personal "intranet" of library resources, with 24/7 access, and portable, they will never go back to regular book reading. The only objection I'm given to those who persist with their "book" desires are those that simply emotionally refuse to learn the new ways of the electronic resources. But once they see your persistence with getting them to experience the benefits, I have seen a marked change in orientation toward the digital format.

I too enjoy seeing books on shelves that are in my Logos. I have noted this to countless Professors, Pastors, and preachers and always with their interest in the Logos digital library. That's really the key word too, Library. If I say, "Bible Software," I have always had to work through fighting their prejudices against other, non-professional "software packages" (e.g., Illumina, Bible Works, etc.)

But I found if I replace "software" with "Digital Library" that REALLY peaks their interest quickly, cause their picture changes from "some software" to "a library of resources on my computer" and, let me tell you, I have had some SUPER conversations about that with instant success.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 29 2011 2:09 PM

Wayne M. Shelton:
I am a product of Justin's enthusiastic obsession with the Logos system.  After spending 3 hrs in class one night, Justin spent another 90 mins, and could have gone longer, introducing those who will listen to him concerning the benefits of this software

Pastor Wayne, I am happy you have crossed paths with Justin and his enthusiasm. Big Smile If you qualified for an academic discount I rejoice that you saved even more and that Justin did not hesitate to spend the time sharing, even though present policy does not reward him for doing so. I just spent some time talking with someone about the current Logos specials and I believe I had a lot to do with that person making a substantial upgrade (about 2x the Scholar Gold price.) I am not in the Ambassador program and doubt I will receive any compensation for my referral. I shared the good news because it was good news.

There was an occasion once where I received an unexpected account credit for my part in convincing someone to get Logos 4. It was highly appreciated by me and definitely not owed to me. I guess you could take a small portion of the Logos Credit you will receive for your purchase of the Scholars Gold package and toss it Justin's direction as a token of appreciation. After all, Justin just tossed a little over $500 of Logos Credit your direction. Devil And it only cost him 4.5 hours.

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JR Woods | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 30 2011 1:08 PM

Super Tramp, I appreciate your eagerness to work a solution by recommending Wayne to toss his credit my way. It kind of misses my point a little bit though. Logos employees are advertising to their customers that the ambassador program is "a great way to sell logos and get credit for it," when this is not true for seminary students--one of the biggest up-coming markets they will gain. It's not about the credit itself, per se, its about the director of the program simply categorizing this as good, Christian, business ethics to reward those who work for them, as the Scripture says, "the laborer is worthy of the wages." Paul did not intend for this to apply to employees only, as he later affirms the OT principle to prove support for those inside the church--"do not muzzle the ox while it treads the grain," making compensation a matter of Christian ethics. Taking Wayne's credit would accomplish the opposite, ethically, from this standard.

Here's the rub--I'm not requesting actual monetary gain here, but simply the same reward all customers recieve on the Christmas special--simple, book credit. Book credit is assigned to academic pricing for every seminary student purchasing this Christmas so clearly it does not break the bank to do so for Seminary Ambassadors. But at the same time, it's the company's decision.

Look, I know I seem like I have been all worked up about this.   I apologize to the Logos team formally   if anything I have written on this has offended, or been taken the wrong way. Making sure everyone has a Logos Digital library has simply been a passion God has set for me because it is the right thing to do for people and, to be honest, it is already producing the next wave of scholars to impact the world for Jesus. I simply have never been the same since this company has entered my life, (yea, I know that sounds sappy) from Runge's Materials, to the software, additional resources, capabilities, events, Morris Proctor--the whole works--I cannot imagine the person and Christian I would have become without this trek. I'd like to stay motivated, that's all.

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Praiser | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 30 2011 2:05 PM

JR Woods:
Making sure everyone has a Logos Digital library has simply been a passion God has set for me because it is the right thing to do for people

I understand your zeal and your desire to receive something for your evangelizing the use of Logos to seminary students. Those should be the easiest to sell to, since they will benefit the most from it during seminary and Logos offers a substantial academic discount to them. Many seminaries require the use of Logos.

The point here is not the laborer is worthy of his wage (which I copied the full verse below), it is that you agreed to those terms when you signed the contract to become an Ambassador, that it did not include academic sales. Now you want to rewrite that contract. You agreed to those wages when you signed up, and now you are posting your displeasure here on the forums.Your contract is between you and Logos and now you are taking it to the forums to get outside support for your position. That is wrong.

This reminds me of Matthew 20:13  "But he answered one of them and said, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius?"

Then there is Luke 10:7 which I believe you were referring to "And remain in the same house, eating and drinking such things as they give, for the laborer is worthy of his wages. Do not go from house to house."

 If God has set this passion to share your excitement for Logos as you shared, He will reward you in His time and way.

Blessings & Peace to you...

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William | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 30 2011 4:26 PM

Praiser:
it is that you agreed to those terms when you signed the contract to become an Ambassador, that it did not include academic sales.

 I believe you are incorrect here it states nothing about what kind of sales.........this is from the FAQ's

 Ambassador can schedule as little as five presentation per quarter and make a 10% commission on net sales! If building a comprehensive digital library is your desire, you can receive a 20% commission (in Logos credit) for Logos book purchases!

 

It says nothing about what you must sell....there was a statement to say the new buyer gets 15% off.  but nothing that I read in a short look about types of purchases needed for credit....

 

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JR Woods | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 30 2011 4:43 PM

Praiser,

I appreciate your candor, and quoting the materials. Indeed, the contract does say that, and in light of the contract, the scripture out of Matthew is similar (though Luke is out of place since my quote is Paul's letter) but is not what I was quoting (1 Tim 5:18) (reread my reference about Paul saying it). The problem, however, is two-fold--1) your assumption that I am accusing them of wrong doing as the parable says of the workers (which was a misquote anyway) and 2) pointing out Logos to believers is some type of "evangelizing," which it is not.

On the former, my creating this whole forum was to spur them beyond the base ethic of appealing to the contract and remaining unwilling to realize the advantages which the higher level would reap--the fundamental economic concept that "people respond to incentives". Limited market penetration (my experience of your comment, "many seminaries require it" is quite the opposite)  is overcome by incentivizing advocates. When others see the results, multiplication follows. This policy cuts this off at the neck, so I spur them on to better works. Not to mention the fact that when I signed up for this, I was assured by their employees that this would not happen, if they knew nothing about the details of the program, then promises are out of place. (and you can't cop-out by appealing to the "recruiters-are-always-liars theme either, if a christian org is promising this (and many of Logos employees have, whom I have come to correct over phone conversations) then it would be in their best interest to resolve the training issue.)

On the latter, my efforts for Logos are nothing like evangelization, nor analogous to it, since my efforts have brought in thousands of dollars of business and continue to do so. As I said, this is a Christian business ethic--even if Christian ethics originate from the church, the application is rooted in business not evangelism, and therefore calls for a business resolution, not an eccleseistical one, driven out of and by Christian ethics, indeed, to which I have appealed.

I realize whether or not they decide to apply this is up to them. It's clear that your intensions were to correct who you thought was a "displeased worker", clearly you would be in the right to do so. But try not to judge too quickly, on too little, before you know the whole story, Praiser, cause it often leads to misunderstanding, misquoting, false assumptions, and misapplied ethics.

Blessings to you and yours Praiser,

JR 

 

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JR Woods | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 30 2011 4:51 PM

Thank you, I read the same as well, and found that only in back-room conversations over the telephone was this secret of "but academic sales don't count" revealed to me, especially quite the opposite over the phone--where it is confirmed that academic sales count.

I'm not disgruntled, I only feel a bit misled, and appealing to Logos team to revamp the policy, as doing so will only help their bottom line.

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fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 30 2011 5:10 PM

Praiser:
The point here (...) is that you agreed to those terms when you signed the contract to become an Ambassador, that it did not include academic sales. Now you want to rewrite that contract. You agreed to those wages when you signed up

I guess you never have and never will ask (or even wish) for a pay rise, since according to your logic it would be wrong to want to 'rewrite the contract' signed when you were first employed.

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 30 2011 5:52 PM

JR Woods:

Thank you, I read the same as well, and found that only in back-room conversations over the telephone was this secret of "but academic sales don't count" revealed to me, especially quite the opposite over the phone--where it is confirmed that academic sales count.

I'm not disgruntled, I only feel a bit misled, and appealing to Logos team to revamp the policy, as doing so will only help their bottom line.

I am sorry to say, but in the business world your contract is a lot better base from which to guide your expectations. Nowhere in the Ambassador program does it say Academic program sales will qualify. It does say the price is 15% off retail. How much is the Academic pricing? Did Pastor Wayne get more than 15% off retail?  I think Academic discounts are 25%, no? If so, he was undercharged. Did you fax his order to Kirsten? If not, I think you are not complying with the Ambassador Program but in fact only meeting the Refer-A-Friend requirements. Check out the yellow highlighting I added to the FAQ portion for key aspects I think you are ignoring. I see why you would like to unilaterally re-write the Ambassador program. Here is a portion of the FAQs for the Ambassador's program:

"What can I sell the product for?

The order form will feature the discounted pricing that you are to sell the packages for. The pricing is 15% off of our retail price. There are no quantity discounts.

What is the difference between the Ambassador program and the Refer-A-Friend program?

For the individual who purchases a base package, there is no difference. Both programs feature a 15% discount on base packages. The difference is what the seller gets. The Ambassador program features the option of a 10% (check) or 20% (Logos credit) commission, whereas the Refer-A-Friend program issues the seller a $25 gift certificate to use toward Logos.com purchases.

How do I complete the order form?

The header information of Name, Address, City, State, Zip, Email, etc., needs to be completed for the recipient. Place a quantity of which package the customer desires, then check the DVD box and the “ship” box, for we will ship it directly to your customer. Complete the credit card information at the footer of the form, have them sign the form, and if they wish to use the Installment Plan, check the box and place a number of months, up to 12, that they wish to use.

How do I get the order forms to Logos?

Fax the order form with a cover page to Kirsten Radke at 360-685-2311.  "   

Bottom line is, If you did not collect 85% off the retail cost from Pastor Wayne and fax the order form and a cover sheet to Kirsten, you did not do your job. Why expect Logos to compensate you? I would have no trouble selling Portfolio for 50% off regular price but I would have a hard time getting paid by Logos to do it.

Maybe Logos would sell more to students if they sweetened the Ambassador program to include Academic sales. But that argument holds true for retail sales too. Logos would sell a lot more if everybody always got a 25% discount off all other sales going on. I am sorry if this seems too cold and impersonal but it looks like a fellow washing car windshields on a street corner and then demanding money from drivers who never agreed to pay for the service. You can ask Logos and they can say "Yes" or they can say "No." I hope they give you something. You have helped Pastor Wayne greatly.

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