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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Oct 22 2011 10:57 PM

George Somsel:

David Paul:
both within the letter and within the NT, sohma virtually ALWAYS means "body".

But not the physical body of Christ

 “Τὸ ποτήριον τῆς εὐλογίας ὃ εὐλογοῦμεν, οὐχὶ κοινωνία ἐστὶν τοῦ αἵματος τοῦ Χριστοῦ; τὸν ἄρτον ὃν κλῶμεν, οὐχὶ κοινωνία τοῦ σώματος τοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐστιν; ὅτι εἷς ἄρτος, ἓν σῶμα οἱ πολλοί ἐσμεν, οἱ γὰρ πάντες ἐκ τοῦ ἑνὸς ἄρτου μετέχομεν.” (1 Corinthians 10:16–17, NA27)

 “Ὑμεῖς δέ ἐστε σῶμα Χριστοῦ καὶ μέλη ἐκ μέρους.” (1 Corinthians 12:27, NA27) 

πρὸς τὸν καταρτισμὸν τῶν ἁγίων εἰς ἔργον διακονίας, εἰς οἰκοδομὴν τοῦ σώματος τοῦ Χριστοῦ,” (Ephesians 4:12, NA27)

Yes, on this point I agree, and it is this usage that I assert is used in Col. 2:17--the "body" of disciples who does His (the Head's) will and walks as he walked (1 Jn. 2:6).

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 23 2011 12:03 AM

David Paul:

George Somsel:

David Paul:
both within the letter and within the NT, sohma virtually ALWAYS means "body".

But not the physical body of Christ

 “Τὸ ποτήριον τῆς εὐλογίας ὃ εὐλογοῦμεν, οὐχὶ κοινωνία ἐστὶν τοῦ αἵματος τοῦ Χριστοῦ; τὸν ἄρτον ὃν κλῶμεν, οὐχὶ κοινωνία τοῦ σώματος τοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐστιν; ὅτι εἷς ἄρτος, ἓν σῶμα οἱ πολλοί ἐσμεν, οἱ γὰρ πάντες ἐκ τοῦ ἑνὸς ἄρτου μετέχομεν.” (1 Corinthians 10:16–17, NA27)

 “Ὑμεῖς δέ ἐστε σῶμα Χριστοῦ καὶ μέλη ἐκ μέρους.” (1 Corinthians 12:27, NA27) 

πρὸς τὸν καταρτισμὸν τῶν ἁγίων εἰς ἔργον διακονίας, εἰς οἰκοδομὴν τοῦ σώματος τοῦ Χριστοῦ,” (Ephesians 4:12, NA27)

 

Yes, on this point I agree, and it is this usage that I assert is used in Col. 2:17--the "body" of disciples who does His (the Head's) will and walks as he walked (1 Jn. 2:6).

OK, as I understand you, you are asserting that rather than having someone else judge the believer regarding matters, he is to be judged by the church

David Paul:
The whole sentence, minus the superfluous prepositional phrases and subordinate clause, is "Let no one judge you...but the body of the Messiah."

We can stipulate that if the final section of the section is to be understood to assert that the Church (the body of Christ) is to judge then σῶμα in σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ would need to be nominative — which I agree it is.  If, on the other hand, σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ is to be understood as an appositive to σκία τῶν μελλόντων it would likewise need to be nominative.  Our disagreement then is not regarding the accidents of the text (i.e., the cases and numbers) but rather regarding the overall structure of the sentence.  I would contend that σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ is too far removed from the main verb κρίνετω to function as its subject without having the verb repeated.  You would leave the average Greek scratching his head wondering what you were trying to say if that were your meaning.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 4818
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 23 2011 1:39 AM

George Somsel:

OK, as I understand you, you are asserting that rather than having someone else judge the believer regarding matters, he is to be judged by the church

David Paul:
The whole sentence, minus the superfluous prepositional phrases and subordinate clause, is "Let no one judge you...but the body of the Messiah."

I would contend that σῶμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ is too far removed from the main verb κρίνετω to function as its subject without having the verb repeated.  You would leave the average Greek scratching his head wondering what you were trying to say if that were your meaning.

LOL...we are talking about the same Greek language and the same apostle Paul, aren't we? I don't perceive either of the aforementioned as being particularly accustomed to behaving with the kind of concern for "nearness" that you are suggesting. Of the languages I am familiar with, Greek is by far the least concerned with such things. But the sentence is not that unusual, even in English. It is a bit "run-on", but that's par for Paul's "course of habit". As an English teacher, I teach students to do exactly what I have suggested should be done to this sentence: remove the "helpful" but "unnecessary" prepositional phrases, and the subordinate (relative) clause that gives further details of those phrases, leaving the core thought--in essence, "Let no one but the body of Messiah judge you." Could it be phrased in a less cumbersome way? Sure, if someone other than Paul were speaking. But on that note, the better word to use rather than σῶμα, in order to suggest "tangible substance",  would be ὑπόστασις. (cf. Heb. 11:1) I acknowlege the fact that the sentence is awkwardly phrased, whether one looks at it as I suggest or as you suggest. But the amount of "construction" needed to arrive at the conclusion you and Runge (and most others) settle for makes me confident that my take (as literal as it can be) is the correct one.

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 23 2011 5:31 AM

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree, but you are still wrong.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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