Wits end: Word study result brings Logos to its knees.

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Posts 524
Stuart Robertson | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, Oct 24 2011 4:41 AM

What shall I do with thee, O Logos 4 ??!! So much promise, so tantalizing the reports, so close, and yet failing consistently at the last mile... :-(

I just did a word study on YHWH (right-clicked on LORD, selected YHWH - can't type Hebrew into this forum post... - and selected word study). Expanding the nodes in the resulting screen became slower and slower and scrolling up/down became sluggish in the extreme. Eventually I got a spinning pizza and after a minute or so had to Force Quit Logos.  Same results each time I try to dig into verbs of which YWHW is the direct object.

I'm truly at my wits end. Each time I try to use Logos for serious study it gets in the way. The focus-related and other keyboard issues, UI bugs, etc I can deal with. But when Logos simply hangs and is unable to present the results I'm sooo close to (I can actually see them, just can't scroll the results or interact with them), then I want to throw my hands up.

I've been trying to work with Logos 4 on Mac for more than a year now, trying really hard, telling myself "it's getting better, it's getting better... give it time". But today I'm at my wits end. Simple Bible searches (in English) are fine, reading a book or Bible is fine. Anything else seems to run into issues where Logos simply gets in the way of serious study... I want to focus on the text, not on Logos, spinning pizzas, force-quitting, restarting, force-quitting, restarting, waiting while results scroll jerkily into view and then Logos hangs before I can expand the results I'm interested in...

Am I just using Logos badly? Am I truly unable to make this thing work? Or am I simply expecting too much when I expect Logos to work the way it's advertised?

Is it too late to ask for a refund after more than a year of battling with Logos?  I cannot even apply highlights to single words in the Bible without 15 second delays (which bug has been known by Logos for more than 10.5 months).

This morning I have truly had enough with Logos 4.  Logos holds so much promise, offers such rich and powerful reports, search abilities, etc etc etc. And yet it's execution is so poor that I cannot bear the irritation of trying to actually do any serious searches with it any more.

 

 

Posts 757
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 24 2011 5:01 AM

Dear Stuart: I'm in the boat within you, only difference is I have had Logos less time.

Cannot use it for serious study, just too unstable, really tired of them acting like there is something wrong with us or, our computers.

I just don't think the company cares, I really don't.

Years ago ,back in my Pc days, I invested in Biblesoft, they did the same thing, came out with an unstable, slow, quirky program and would not fix it. Just interested in selling modules.

Alas, I have Accordance which is incredibly fast, stable , they just don't have the Library Logos has. I may just chunk it in as well and go back to buying books for the things I cannot get in Program. I am losing more study time fiddling with the software than I gain from the software.

I too find this incredibly sad as Logos has the titles, has some good ideas, it's just too unstable, too slow.

If you have not called Tech support, you might try that, I am going to try it again this week though, I called a couple of weeks ago and even though I showed them bugs they had not seen ( according to the guy I got ) there has been no follow up, and no fixes.

Funny thing is, they have had no trouble getting my payments on time, I have been keeping my end of the agreement-smile.

If you have a year invested already, another call might be worthwhile.

Blessings,

Posts 549
Shawn Drewett | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 24 2011 6:56 AM

I must say  that "hanging" is a common problem with me also. My pc processor probably cringes every time I start L4 because it runs incessantly,  as does the cooling fan.  I truly regret that I ever chose Logos as my sole bible study program, but it's too late now so I try to make the best of it. 

Posts 524
Stuart Robertson | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 24 2011 9:48 AM

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:
If you have not called Tech support, you might try that, I am going to try it again this week though, I called a couple of weeks ago and even though I showed them bugs they had not seen ( according to the guy I got ) there has been no follow up, and no fixes.

I have not called Tech support, but I have logged numerous, carefully documented bugs via this forum. I've created videos demonstrating problems, uploaded logs, etc and generally provided free testing support. All to no avail - the vast majority of the bugs I've reported almost a year ago are still not fixed.

Posts 1680
Jerry M | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 24 2011 10:08 AM

Stuart, I do not mean to add to your frustration, this is just my opinion, and everyone has one, I would consider keeping Logos, selling the Mac and buying a really powerful Windows desktop.  I understand Mac loyalty, but when it comes to Logos use this is my opinion.  This may not be a financial option or one may feel the benefits of owning a Mac surpass any other thing.  From what I have heard, the complaints of Logos use on Macs surpass the benefits of web security in my opinion.  Of course many would be unwilling to learn another operating system, and that is understandable also.

"For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power"      Wiki Table of Contents

Posts 757
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 24 2011 10:11 AM

Dear Stuart: Understand frustration and, share it.

Will still recommend calling Logos, allowing screenshare.

They were not able to fix/repair all my issues ( I showed them some they were not even aware of such as: Some buttons not working when using outboard screens) , however, they were able to solve some issues and at least get the thing somewhat usable.

That said, it still has problems and the more I use it in one session, the slower it gets, the more bogged down it gets.

It does have coding PROBLEMS , do not know if they will get it fixed.

If it is not better by the end of the time to get refund, Personally, I will send it back.

I would not buy a new car and keep it that would not drive properly, I would not keep a defective computer, I would not keep tires if they would not hold air.

Thus, I will not keep software the company cannot fix.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Again, I would call them, give them a chance to make it right.

The Forums "Are Not" Authorized Tech Support.

There may be Tech support people on here, but that does not constitute the Company looking directly at the Problem.

In your case, I would think ( as patient as you have been ), they would give you the highest level of tech support- level two or three, something like that.

There may be something they can do.

Hope I have not discouraged you more, just wanted to affirm that you are not alone in this frustration and others are pressing them to fix this as well.

Please let us know if they are able to help.

Posts 524
Stuart Robertson | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 24 2011 10:11 AM

Shawn Drewett:
 I truly regret that I ever chose Logos as my sole bible study program, but it's too late now so I try to make the best of it. 

I had Bibleworks (on Windows) for many years and have now come to regret the day I sold it and switched to Logos. I truly don't know where the problems lie with Logos 4 technically but I have a very powerful computer on which every other application I have performs superbly. It's just Logos that constantly hangs.  The irony of all of this is that Logos, being a Bible study tool, is the one program I want to use more than any -- due to a desire to study the Bible, not a desire to subject myself to daily irritation when it crashes / hangs, and yet it is the one tool that I can no longer bring myself to keep on using. 

Is anyone at Logos listening...? Please pay attention... there are serious issues with Logos and it's inability to handle even modest search results, Bible word studies, etc is really sad -- it's sooo close and yet completely unusable for serious, sustained Bible study.  A program with memory leaks, hangs, etc necessitating constant restarts of both Logos and my computer, etc do not constitute good workmanship. 

Is there a desire within Logos to address these issues and produce a product that honors both the LORD and as the spirit in which the product was sold? I hope and pray the answer is 'yes'.

Posts 524
Stuart Robertson | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 24 2011 10:16 AM

Hi Charles,

I hear you - I will take time out of my day today call tech support (here's hoping tech support is open after hours). Even if only to get closure and be able to say "I gave it my best shot". I don't hold out much hope they will be able to fix this, though. I suspect Logos 4 is fundamentally broken somewhere deep down in its .NET / Mono guts. But one call to tech support can't hurt much more than the last year of frustration has.

Posts 757
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 24 2011 10:18 AM

Jerry: You probably mean well, but your post is like a big slap in the face.

That would be like going to the tire store, buying new tires for my car, them not being able to balance them, my car shaking and the tire store telling me that I need to buy a different car to match the tires- that's just nuts.

Logos has advertised a Product, to be used on this platform, Logos has not deliver a product that runs correctly on this platform.

Logos needs to fix what wrong "On Their End", we do not need to change our end.

There was nothing dysfunctional about our money.

If the food is rotten at the restaurant , you are not going to allow them to say you need to change your bodily functionality so you can safely eat rotten food.

If Logos runs well on Windows, thats great, so glad for all you Windows users, thats wonderful!

But we are NOT Windows users, we bought this product for Mac, so it needs to function properly on the Mac.

Posts 757
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 24 2011 10:24 AM

I agree Stuart and Yes, Logos is the only program giving issues on mine as well.

Logos Tech support was Very Nice, They tried really hard, they did not feel rushed, did seem to care.

They were as stumped as we are on some issues, but over-all were helpful, kind, understood my frustrations and did all they could to help.

Did get me back to running and as long as I don't push it, can be patient for results, it works. I do restart it from time to time to keep it from crashing.

I also found just minimizing and then pulling it back up seems to help some, for some odd reason.

Hope you can get in touch.

 

Posts 524
Stuart Robertson | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 24 2011 10:25 AM

It's ironic that Logos' announcement of a Mac version of Logos was what finally made me switch to Mac. There were various Mac applications that I've long wanted to be able to use, Scrivener and DEVONthink being two in particular. But more than a year of putting up with Logos 4's bugs, crashes, hangs and memory leaks is enough. Perhaps I need to buy Parallels 7 and run Logos for Windows on my old Windows XP installation.

Funamentally, though, Logos has failed to deliver on promises made to its customers. Yes, hindsight is a perfect science, and your suggestion is probably the right way to go (apart from spending more money and buying Accordance 9 to stay on Mac). But I am saddened (and a touch angered, to be truthful) about what the reality behind the promises has turned out to be.

Posts 757
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 24 2011 10:38 AM

Don't know how to private message on this and do not want to be rude to Logos, thus want to be careful what I say and how I say it.

I have the other Mac Bible Program and it does indeed run extremely well, extremely fast, very small footprint on processors and ram.

However, they do not have as large a library selection as Logos ( which seems to have every book ever written-smile ).

I got Logos for the resources that the other program does not have, I use both right now, but will have to see how things develop with Logos to know if I am staying or not.

My point is that you are not without options.

Emulation is an option, not sure if Logos runs as well on XP as Xp cannot see as much memory as Win 7.

It is certainly not unchristian or ungracious of us to ask for high standards of value from these companies. 

At what they do, they should be seeking to deliver the very best, for we should never offer to God or His people second best, leftovers or anything like that, we should seek to offer the very best we are capable of.

Hopefully support can help and, to be fair, the tech support I received did indeed, in my opinion, try to give his very best.

Posts 524
Stuart Robertson | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 24 2011 10:48 AM

Thanks for the encouragement, Charles. I downloaded the "other Mac" trial and it looks promising for my study needs.

I wonder if there is any way to ask Bob Pritchett to respond to these (and other) concerns and provide his take on where we are and what's being done to fix this?

Posts 19039
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 24 2011 10:52 AM

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:
Don't know how to private message on this

You can click on a person's name in any one of their posts to get to their profile, and then click Add Comment at the bottom of the page. This will end up sending the person an email (if they've left the default of send notifications by email when someone posts a comment on your profile ON). It'll be open for public viewing for the short term, if anyone else does happen to go visit that person's profile, so don't say anything *extremely* confidential, but you can ask them to delete the comment once they've read it if you'd rather it not sit up there forever.

Stuart Robertson:
I wonder if there is any way to ask Bob Pritchett to respond to these (and other) concerns and provide his take on where we are and what's being done to fix this?

He often browses the forums and replies, or people internally will sometimes bring a thread to his attention if it needs a response from him. I have emailed him asking him to take a look at this thread.

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 24 2011 10:57 AM

Jerry M:
Stuart, I do not mean to add to your frustration, this is just my opinion, and everyone has one, I would consider keeping Logos, selling the Mac and buying a really powerful Windows desktop.  I understand Mac loyalty, but when it comes to Logos use this is my opinion.  This may not be a financial option or one may feel the benefits of owning a Mac surpass any other thing.  From what I have heard, the complaints of Logos use on Macs surpass the benefits of web security in my opinion.  Of course many would be unwilling to learn another operating system, and that is understandable also.

Option: run Logos 4 Windows in a virtual machine on Mac.  Wiki Logos 4 Mac => Need Logos 4 PC feature? includes virtualization and native boot options.  Oracle's VirtualBox is free; only need a Windows license.  Currently, Logos 4 Mac feature parity needs more improvement; see wiki Mac and PC User Interface Differences => Feature Parity  For Logos 4, can use Method # 3 => Quick Installation onto multiple computers (since resource files are platform agnostic).  If solely using Windows to run Logos 4, can ponder if want to install other programs in Windows (e.g. Anti-virus).  Virtualization has clipboard integration option so can copy and paste.

Stuart Robertson:
I just did a word study on YHWH (right-clicked on LORD, selected YHWH - can't type Hebrew into this forum post... - and selected word study). Expanding the nodes in the resulting screen became slower and slower and scrolling up/down became sluggish in the extreme. Eventually I got a spinning pizza and after a minute or so had to Force Quit Logos.  Same results each time I try to dig into verbs of which YWHW is the direct object.

Observation: for forum posting, can copy lemma in Logos 4 and paste: יהוה

Wonder about using a couple Bible Word Study Guides ? (collapsing sections not in use)

By the way, understand frustration, learned Bible Word Study (BWS) cannot have 2 guides open to same word יהוה (crashed Logos 4.5 Beta 3 once).  Thankful can open different Guides for same word; had to wait for spinning wheels in Logos 4 to complete so could collapse sections.  Created custom guide "BWS - Grammatical Relationships" for Word Study use that only has Grammatical Relationships section.  Also experienced spinning beach ball when expanding or collapsing "Subject of" entry with 612 occurrences (after few seconds could scroll list; personally prefer moving scroll indicator, which is faster than wheel mouse).

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 757
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 24 2011 11:02 AM

Thanks Rosie: Your very kind.

I don't think anyone is complaining , just to be complaining. Just frustrated is all.

I usually check the forums twice a day to find out if there are any updates. Reason for that is I cannot leave internet and auto-update on, in Logos, because if I do it crashes on opening and on re-opening it comes up with little box screen or long skinny one-smile.

So, just come here. 

Probably posted too much, but share frustrations others have-smile-perhaps it's group therapy!

Blessings and Thanks

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 24 2011 11:11 AM

Stuart Robertson:
I just did a word study on YHWH (right-clicked on LORD, selected YHWH - can't type Hebrew into this forum post...

יהוה   Hmm  Hmm..

Could it be there are better ways of doing what you are trying? Maybe someone who is having success will share what they are doing different. I just added Mac to my Logos world and have found it close in performance to the Windows version. I still have my PC running both Libronix 3 and Logos 4..I do what I need to to get done what I need to.

Hope you get some helpful advice from experienced L4Mac users. I'm obviously not doing as heavy a study to see any problem.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 757
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 24 2011 11:44 AM

Good Points S.T.: Your comments are quite valid , however, does this not provide further insight into the issues?

Why is it logos will run pretty good on one machine, not as well on another?

I know of people with newer andy more powerful Macs than my own who actually have the same and, in some cases, more issues than my own. ( mine are pretty common though).

It almost seems like there is some coding issue that make the program really susceptible to any little variation in machines, even ones that are of the same specs.

Fragile might me a good word to use here, something like: The Program is very fragile and thus easily broken by even slightly different Osx installs, preferences, other software, etc.

I think your comment is valuable to the conversation and worth a lot of thought.

Posts 757
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 24 2011 12:14 PM

Dear Stuart: I tried your test case from the other thread.

The first case was repeatable on my machine.

The second one ( search ) did not crash my machine, scrolling became unpredictable, runs on, etc, but did not crash.

Notes: my machine is only a macbook Alum. 5.1 4 gig memory.

Hoever, I see you are still on Beta copy, this could well be an "issue"

I am on 4.3 SR-5.

Don't know how you get off of Beta Channel but that may help you some.

That said, Bible Word study crashed for me as predicted using your steps.

Hope this helps.

 

 

Posts 524
Stuart Robertson | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 24 2011 12:19 PM

Thanks Charles. You have been a great encouragement to me today.

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