What to do?

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jameslacy8 | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Dec 9 2011 5:00 PM

I am in the market for a new laptop.  I have never used a Mac but am considering a Macbook Pro.  One of the main reasons for a laptop was that I wanted to get started with Logos software as it looks phenomenal.  I am also wanting to move to a Mac since I am getting a little tired of PC.  I have a home PC but would likely use Logos strictly on the laptop.  That said, I hopped into this forum and was frightened to see the problems many are having with the Mac version and am now completely unsure.  I am sure PC has plenty of problems as well, but it seems there are more working features on the PC version.    So should I be scared away back to getting a PC laptop instead? 

Posts 302
John Graves | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 9 2011 5:09 PM

personally for me the Mac version is almost unusable.  it even scrolls through a book slowly, i don't have any crashing problems its just slow.  my mac is just the white late 2009 macbook with 4gb ram, but i have a 2008 toshiba with about the same set up and win 7 and it runs logos way faster than my mac.  The toshiba is slower on others things than my mac but it runs circles are the mac when i use logos.

Posts 450
Alexander | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 9 2011 5:09 PM

I wouldn't be. I use two MAC's and both perform well on Logos. I do suggest you have 8 GB of RAM - just buy a default base line and then buy a cheap RAM upgrade ($50 typically). If you are going for a MB Pro - I'd suggest the 15" at least. I have the 13" and it's harder to read and to do in depth-study just because of the size. I suggest on the MB's you get a dedicated graphics card and at least the i5 (again the 15" books).

Posts 382
Sacrifice | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 9 2011 5:53 PM

We just transferred to Macs (including a 17" MBP). We have 8 RAM in each machine and the faster processors. Everything is working fine. There are some articles related to running Macs which are outlined in the support section - and some known issues which hopefully Logos will address ASAP, but overall ' at this time' we are fairly satisfied ....Everyone here has been very helpful as well ... and of course Macs are fantastic computers  ......

Yours In Christ

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 9 2011 8:53 PM

jameslacy8:

I am in the market for a new laptop.  I have never used a Mac but am considering a Macbook Pro.  One of the main reasons for a laptop was that I wanted to get started with Logos software as it looks phenomenal.  I am also wanting to move to a Mac since I am getting a little tired of PC.  I have a home PC but would likely use Logos strictly on the laptop.  That said, I hopped into this forum and was frightened to see the problems many are having with the Mac version and am now completely unsure.  I am sure PC has plenty of problems as well, but it seems there are more working features on the PC version.    So should I be scared away back to getting a PC laptop instead? 

Welcome Big Smile

Wiki => Logos 4 Mac includes: "Logos 4 is resource intensive on Mac & PC – benefits from fast processor, graphics, and disk along with adequate memory (i.e. newer hardware since Logos 4 being designed for use over 5 to 8 years)."

For Logos 4 use on Mac and PC, suggest 2nd generation Intel Core i5 or i7 with dedicated graphics plus 4 GB (or more) RAM.  For hard disk, a 7200 rpm disk drive is up to 30 % faster than 5400 rpm while Solid State Disk (SSD) can be much faster.

For longer battery life, default hard drive in MacBook Pro's are 5400 rpm.  Other World Computing offers Do It Yourself drive upgrade kits => http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/hard-drives/2.5-Notebook/SATA/DIY/

Wiki Logos 4 Mac => Mini FAQ includes: " New to Mac OS X?

 Apple has Mac OS X Applications and Utilities plus hundreds of How-To Tutorials. Apple Support includes Mac 101Switch 101 and Keyboard shortcuts. For OS X Lion, Apple Support includes Recovery (with how to install on a new drive) "

Comparing Logos 4 on Mac and PC; wiki Mac and PC User Interface Differences => Feature Parity lists many features working on PC that are not yet on Mac plus many Logos 4.5 Beta feature parity improvements.  After stable Logos 4.5 ships, appears feature parity list shrinking by 50 % (from 24 to 12).  Am aware of several Logos 4.5 Beta bugs on Mac (see => Mac Beta forum)  so anticipating more Beta release(s) before a stable release candidate.

Apple pricing for MacBook AIr models and 13" MacBook Pro models are competitive with PC.  In fact, Intel has subsidized other manufacturers so competitively priced ultrabook models could be produced.  However, the 17" MacBook Pro has premium pricing since similar hardware for PC can be purchased for much less.  Caveat: MacBook Air RAM is surface mounted on the motherboard so cannot be upgraded after purchase.  MacBook Air is light and easy to carry.

Apple offers refurbished MacBook Pro models => http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/specialdeals/mac/macbook_pro (including previous generation models that were refreshed in February 2011)

Mac Rumors has Mac Buyer's Guide => http://buyersguide.macrumors.com/ that includes rumors (e.g. Ivy Bridge CPU's for  MacBook Pro estimated for May 2012).  Also reading rumor about 15" MacBook Air for next year => http://www.macrumors.com/2011/11/28/updated-macbook-air-line-with-new-15-inch-model-coming-in-1q-2012/ (anticipate 15" MacBook Air having a screen resolution similar to 17" MacBook Pro).

From reading Logos 4 Mac forum threads, am aware of Logos 4 Mac being bit more crash prone on OS X Lion.  Personally wondering about hardware commonality with associated drivers that provides more opportunity to crash.  Logos development is aware of many OS X Lion issues and actively working to improve Logos 4 Mac (along with Sync v2 framework plus feature parity improvements plus develop XCode 4 replacement for interface plug-in previously used).

For Logos 4 Mac using a MacBook Pro, one option is purchasing a February 2011 model that includes Snow Leopard with free upgrade to OS X Lion (via App Store purchase).  Before installing OS X Lion, create an external bootable disk with Snow Leopard.  In contrast to PC's, a Mac can boot from internal or external storage; also can easily clone and migrate between models.  OS X Lion installation includes a recovery partition with Disk Utility (have used with OEM OS X Lion models to copy original distribution before configuring OS X Lion for customer use).

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 757
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 9 2011 8:58 PM

Dear James: First: The problems you read about here "Are Not The Fault of Macs" at all, in any way. Mac's are much better computers overall than Pc's. You don't have to run virus software, you don't have to defrag, you don't have to run anti-spyware programs , any of that type stuff that uses up resources, money, time. You don't generally have to "work on your Mac", you just do your work on your Mac.

Next: The Problems you read about here are due to Logos not being a mature program on the Mac platform. It's getting better little by little, but it is not yet what one would call a normal Mac application.

Logos is "The Only" program that gives any issues on my Mac . ( as a for instance).

If one reads the Pc forum, one will see they are having some stability issues over there as well, not as many , but some. The reason they have less is not because Pc is better, but because Logos has been writing code for the Windows Operating system much longer than it has for the Mac Operating system.

Unless you are not going to do anything else with this computer other than Logos, then I would look to make my decisions on more than simply how well it will run Logos.

One of the differences between Pc's and Macs is "total value over time of ownership" (which few people today factor into any purchase, but we all should-smile)

A 1000 Pc is worth very little in 4 years, my 4 year old macbook is worth right around 700.00, thus it cost me about 100.00 to own a Mac, but every Pc I ever owned ( which is many, own two now, on desktop, one laptop) was nothing more than a straight expenditure. By that I mean, they were worth pretty much nothing after a couple of years. Never able to sell one for even half my investment , even as soon as two years.

My suggestion is to make a wise computer decision based on "all" your needs.

I bought my last two Pc's based on needing one for the Bible Program I had, thus could not change to a Mac, it was a mistake. That company did not even keep up with Windows development, thus, I speak a lot of money on resources, lot os money on computers all for naught because that company did not stay current. So, I bought the computer platform that "I Needed" for my life and, adapted my software to meet it.

This is easily done with Emulators such as Fusion etc.

So, get the computer you need and want, something that has value, gives value and has great service connected to it. Then, get the software you need, run Windows and Mac Programs ( if you get the Mac). 

Just know it's not Apple or Microsofts fault that Logo's is having some issues, that's on Logos, they are working on it.

 

Blessings

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 9 2011 10:43 PM

From a random source. Whether PC or MAC is a better choice depends on what you want in a machine. Give me a university and I can tell you which departments lean which way in their choice of computers:

MAC

+ Safe (Supposedly)  ---- Since fewer people use MACs, there are less hackers and virus-writers out there, meaning less people trying to break it.

+ Easy (Very much so)  ---- Can't argue here.  Plug and play, but this is more because its much less customizable.

+ Fast (Supposedly) ---- Uses Intel Core2 processors, but system software architecture may allow faster operation.

+ Good programs come bundled  ---- Microsoft bundles and gets sued.

- Small amount of freeware avaiable  ---- Gotta pay to play in Apple's world (from a developer side of things too).

- Not upgradeable (Excluding the G4 and G5 desktops) ---- Apple is the most proprietary company out there.  From connectors to peripherals, they decide how they want their system to behave, and don't let anyone else play in their sandbox.

- More expensive than a cheap PC

 

PC

+ Very customizable/ lots of choices (Many manufactures make them, you can build one yourself) ---- Yes, though this adds to complexity.

+ More freeware and game support ---- game support comes from that fact that more people use it.  freeware comes from the fact that there are more tools to program with, again, because more people use it.

+ Cheap ---- starts cheap yes, gets expensive fast.

- Low-end pcs are slower than low-end macs ---- well, what do you want it to do?  email and Word don't need a lot.  You get what you pay for, but sometimes it's too much.

- More vunerable to bad-things (easily fixable though) ---- more people hacking away at Windows means more vulnerabilities are discovered.  Apple is just as proprietary and comes with even more stuff bundled in.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1955
Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 9 2011 11:17 PM

The old Mac versus PC debate has countless numbers of web pages devoted to it, so I don't suppose it would do any good to add yet another through this forum... Geeked

I think your concern about using Logos for Mac is a valid one and you are right to examine the forum posts here. What comes to mind is that you are counting the potential cost. 

My take on it is this... you will undoubtedly get the best performance on new hardware. The new Mac you get will serve you well and many will assert it will do it's part. The question is will Logos for Mac do it's part in terms of trouble free operation? Most likely... at least one of the gripes that you will hear on these forums it's the 'most likely' that is troublesome. Many come to the Mac platform because they want a hardware/software combination that 'just works'. Logos for Mac is not up to some of our expectations in this regard. The developers are working hard and it is getting better and better all the time, so I believe you should know that up front.

No software is perfect. Even on the Mac. Go search the Apple forums and you will find problems. Some of them are hardware, some of them are software, some of them are user, some of them are a combination of the three.

OK, so you shell out a bunch of clams for a new Mac and buy Logos, what are your options if it doesn't meet your expectations?

1. Logos has a 30 day money back guarantee. You can at least get your money back and then invest in another Mac Bible software program. Some of us on this forum by private email can discuss other options which we enjoy.

2. You could use Fusion or Parallels to run Windows on your Mac and use the Windows version of Logos. Up until 4.5 (which is in beta), the Windows version has more features and some would argue is more mature because of the years of experience in Logos in developing Windows software.

3. You could run Logos for Mac and if you encounter problems, just hang in there, installing updates whenever they are released and helping by submitting bug reports when you encounter problems. From what Bob indicates, they are committed to the Mac platform and there is already significant momentum. I really, really hope the upcoming release of 4.5 is a water mark of development in the long story of Logos on Mac.

Probably if I were in your shoes, I would go for it if you really like Logos and it meets your needs. That being said, if you want to contact me on email for my experiences on another mac Bible program, let me know. I will say the other product is virtually flawless in terms of bugs, is very fast, but has it's own strengths and weaknesses. I'm not blindly loyal to any product. These are just tools that I ruthlessly use to accommodate my purposes. If you need to and can afford it, you could even consider owning more than one.

Hope this helps. I don't know what we will be using in 20 years, but for now, the Mac computing platforum serves my purposes and I have high hopes for Logos for Mac..

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 10 2011 2:42 AM

MJ. Smith:
+ Safe (Supposedly)  ---- Since fewer people use MACs, there are less hackers and virus-writers out there, meaning less people trying to break it.

With Mac sales increasing globally, economic incentive for malware is increasing (with hacker development kit improving).  However, do not (yet) need additional anti-virus add-on; Apple's included protection is currently adequate.  Also helps that Mac users do not run as administrator (root); easy to teach if you are being prompted for a password and did not start installation, then do not enter password.  Likewise, Mac OS X network sharing items are disabled by default.

MJ. Smith:
+ Fast (Supposedly) ---- Uses Intel Core2 processors, but system software architecture may allow faster operation.

What's your benchmark? thread includes => http://community.logos.com/forums/p/24555/255412.aspx#255412 from a 2.93 GHz Intel Core i7 iMac with a score of 1457, decent hardware for running Logos 4 Mac.  Enabling Mac OS X 64-bit kernel is noticeably faster.

All of the current Mac models offered by Apple have significantly faster processors than Intel Core 2.  Noticed Intel Core 2 is available in refurbished Mac models that were originally released in 2010; refreshes in 2011 changed processors to 2nd Generation Intel Core i5 and i7 (except Mac Pro models, which have multi-processor Xeon's).  The 2011 Mac models are much faster.  Mac Mini 2011 review => http://www.macworld.com/article/161414/2011/08/mac_mini_mid_2011_review.html includes performance chart comparison.

Several Logos 4 Mac replies about sluggish performance have Intel Core 2 processors, which do feel slower since menus take a longer time to appear (have learned to click and wait a lot on older hardware).  Newer hardware is more tolerable, but menu responsiveness still needs improvement on Mac and PC, hence Logos User Voice suggestion => Improve Logos 4 Menu Responsiveness that has 24 votes.

MJ. Smith:

- Small amount of freeware avaiable  ---- Gotta pay to play in Apple's world (from a developer side of things too).

Observation: many open source projects have free Mac OS X versions: VirtualBox, LibreOffice, Firefox, Opera, Gimp, ... => http://opensourcemac.org/

Apple is committed to open source development => http://www.apple.com/opensource/

With Oracle's VirtualBox (or commercial alternatives), can run Linux and Windows in virtual machines on Mac so an Intel Mac can run more software than a PC since Mac OS X is licensed only for Apple hardware.

MJ. Smith:
- Not upgradeable (Excluding the G4 and G5 desktops) ---- Apple is the most proprietary company out there.

For Mac upgrades and repairs, can refer to "I FIx It" web site => http://www.ifixit.com/Browse/Mac

Many Mac models use laptop components, including industry standard SO-Dimm's and Sata connections so memory and hard drives can often be upgraded, which is similar to many PC laptops.  Notable exception is MacBook Air that cannot upgrade RAM.

By the way, have used an Apple Mini Display Port to DVI adapter on a Dell XPS L702X laptop for external monitor display.

Apple enhanced the Mini Display Port for Thunderbolt connections.   Found a web site with Thunderbolt devices => http://www.thunderbolt-resources.com/ (personally bit surprised by paucity of devices almost a year after Apple starting shipping Mac's with Thunderbolt).

MJ. Smith:
- More expensive than a cheap PC

Depends on model.  The 2011 MacBook Air, 13" MacBook Pro, Mac Mini, and 27" iMac models are competitively priced.  In fact, many PC manufacturers complained about lack of profitability to match 2011 MacBook Air model pricing; Intel provided $ 300,000,000 in assistance to fund PC ultrabook startup production.  In contrast, the 17" MacBook Pro has premium pricing (cheaper to buy a 17" PC laptop and Mac Mini compared to a 17" MacBook Pro, then use VNC software on PC laptop to control screen on Mac Mini after initial configuration on Mac Mini to enable screen sharing).

MJ. Smith:
- More vunerable to bad-things (easily fixable though)

The level of malware sophistication is increasing, including subtle modification of master boot record (MBR) to boot a hidden partition then boot windows so detection is much more difficult since malware can be loaded into memory before Windows and protection add-ons => http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9221084/World_s_most_sophisticated_rootkit_is_being_overhauled

Kaspersky Labs has a support page that mentions six bootkits already in the wild => http://support.kaspersky.com/viruses/solutions?qid=208280748

Considering rootkits or bootkits can necessitate Windows reinstallation => http://www.spamfighter.com/News-16410-Rootkit-Contamination-Reparable-With-Windows-Reinstall-Microsoft.htm personally disagree with easily fixable assessment.

Mac models are typically not vulnerable to MBR malware because Apple uses newer Extensible Firmware Interface (EFI) with different disk partitioning scheme.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 762
Patrick S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 10 2011 5:08 AM

jameslacy8:

I am in the market for a new laptop.  I have never used a Mac but am considering a Macbook Pro.  One of the main reasons for a laptop was that I wanted to get started with Logos software as it looks phenomenal.  I am also wanting to move to a Mac since I am getting a little tired of PC.  

Don't buy a Mac because you want Logos 4, buy a Mac because you want a better computing platform and user experience.

  • The Mac OS platform is far superior to Windows - which is only going to go further downhill with Windows 8. 
  • Mac machines in almost all cases are better quality than roughly equivalent Windows machines. Windows machines are typically not cheaper — as in better value, they are typically cheap — as in cheap and nasty. They may, in some cases, be lower cost — but that is because they are lower quality. When Windows computer manufacturers try to build up to Mac quality level they either can't, or have subsidiaries from Intel to be able to compete (boy that should be illegal).

Having chosen a Mac for the right reason you can then run Logos on it, either the Mac version or the Windows version via Parallels.

Logos 4 Mac is not up to the Windows version — yet — but as more and more people run Macs Logos will have to put more resources onto the Mac version. Who knows, maybe even one day Bob Pritchett may switch to a Mac as his primary machine Stick out tongue

 

p.s. re: the machine, as you say you want a laptop think about the size. The MacBook 15" is very popular, you should not exclude the MacBook Air from your deliberations even though it maxes out at 13" currently. The MacBook Air is a brilliant machine and can drive huge external monitors. Do the research. I would only say get the best specced CPU processor MacBook you can — HDD including SSD drives & RAM can be beefed up later.

"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein

Posts 2
jameslacy8 | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 10 2011 5:30 AM

Wow...thanks for all the replies.  First off I am wanting a Mac over the PC because I am wanting a better computer.  Since I am tired of PC and wanting a PC I am 100% leaning to Mac.  But another of my primary uses for it would be logos.  However, I had not previously seen what other software comparable to Logos until seeing one the replies in here.   So I looked up a little and saw there is another good option out there.  I guess my main question would now would be whether Logos is working hard towards fixing the Mac issues, or will it always be second rate to the PC version?  Either way, I think I am going to get the Mac and see what happens on Logos or go with other options on similar software.  Again thanks for all the replies

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 10 2011 5:39 AM

jameslacy8:
I guess my main question would now would be whether Logos is working hard towards fixing the Mac issues, or will it always be second rate to the PC version?

It appears that Logos is serious about development on the Mac platform. Having been an observer/participant in this development since its beginning (2006, I think), I am encouraged with the progress. Still somewhat impatient, but expecting full parity within the next year—or sooner.

Posts 248
Daniel Arnott | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 10 2011 7:25 AM

I have gone back to Logos on my PC as the mac version was clunky. Slowness was the biggest problem when Macs are alot faster than PC's. So agree that it isnt a mature Mac program and also isnt written in native Mac code. PC version more stable with more features. I have removed the mac version for now. Will install again in a few months if this forum isnt so full of complaints about it

Posts 248
Daniel Arnott | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 10 2011 7:26 AM

You could always get the mac and run Logos through Parallels which may help you make your decision

Posts 248
Daniel Arnott | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 10 2011 7:27 AM

You could always get the mac and then run Logos through Parallels which may help you make your decision

Posts 607
John Fugh, Jr. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 10 2011 8:30 AM

I've left the PC worlds and haven't looked back.  For the last 2 mos I have been using a MB Pro 15" with 8GB RAM and i7.  I have not had any issues with speed.  In fact, it seems to be a lot smoother than my PC version.  I don't really use the Logos library to do heavy syntax searching or other heavy duty stuff and it works fine.  There are some quirks, but I believe the wiki has them spelled out.  It really depends how intense you use Logos.

 

j

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 10 2011 10:29 AM

Jack Caviness:

jameslacy8:
I guess my main question would now would be whether Logos is working hard towards fixing the Mac issues, or will it always be second rate to the PC version?

It appears that Logos is serious about development on the Mac platform. Having been an observer/participant in this development since its beginning (2006, I think), I am encouraged with the progress. Still somewhat impatient, but expecting full parity within the next year—or sooner.

On 12 May 2011, Bob Pritchett posted => What Logos development is doing that included:

Bob Pritchett:
Windows has more users than Mac, but Mac is behind and needs improvement, and it is gaining market share on the way to 50%. We consider it equally important to Windows, and already are at the point where some new work is Mac first, then ported to Windows.

Logos 4.5 Beta already has more Mac feature parity improvements compared to Logos 4.3; personally encouraged by Logos 4 Mac development.

One indication of Logos 4.3 on Mac usability is Logos User Voice voting that shows OS X Lion full screen and multi-finger gesturing is more desired than completing feature parity:

# 17 => Logos 4 Mac Enhancements has 227 votes (Logos 4.5 Beta added many multi-finger gestures for Mac)

# 36 => Improve Logos 4 Mac Feature Parity with PC has 73 votes (Logos 4.5 Beta has a dozen improvements for Mac)

# 46 => Floating window layouts has 57 votes

# 73 (tied) => Improve Logos 4 Menu Responsiveness has 24 votes

# 76 (tied) => Improve Logos 4 Mac Note Positioning has 23 votes (Logos 4.5 Beta has improvement on Mac)

# 91 (tied) => Logos 4 Mac Program Scaling and Font Sliders has 16 votes (Logos 4.5 Beta has added many Font Sliders on Mac)

Beginning with version 4.2a, Logos development combined Mac and PC fixes plus enhancements are released together.  For example, Personal Book tool was released on Mac and PC simultaneously.

Keep Smiling Smile

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