New Interpreter's Bible treatment of Psalm 44

The NIBs price has been reduced greatly, to a normal pre pub pricing. Here is a sample from volume 4. Psalm 44
http://www.logos.com/product/8803/new-interpreters-bible
PSALM 44:1-26, LIKE SHEEP FOR SLAUGHTER
COMMENTARY
Psalm 44 is the first communal lament or complaint in the psalter. Two major issues have dominated the scholarly discussion of the psalm: (1) the circumstances in which it arose, and (2) the identity of the speaker(s). As for the first issue, a wide variety of proposals has been offered. The origin of the psalm is sometimes placed during the monarchy (see 2 Chr 20:1-12) and is often associated with Sennacherib’s campaign of 701 BCE (see 2 Kgs 18:13–19:37; Isa 36:1–37:37). Then, too, Psalm 44 is clearly reminiscent of the exile, which involved the scattering of the people (see v. 11). Since vv. 17-22 seem inconsistent with the dominant OT view that the exile was a deserved punishment (see 2 Kgs 17:19-20; 24:4-5), other dates have also been proposed, including the second-century BCE Maccabean period, when the Temple was desecrated by Antioches IV Epiphanes. The very fact that these proposals cover a range of over 500 years suggests the difficulty of dating the psalm. As John Calvin suggested long ago, almost any date after the exile would fit, “for after the return of the Jews from the captivity of Babylon, they were scarcely ever free from severe afflictions.”191
The second issue is related to the first. Noting that vv. 4, 6, 15-16 depart from the predominant first-person plural, several scholars suggest that this speaker must be the king, who speaks as a representative of the nation during the crisis.
<Page 856 Ends><Page 857 Begins>
Obviously, this view necessitates a pre-exilic dating of the psalm. Craigie, for instance, argues that Psalm 44 originated during some unknown pre-exilic crisis and was used during subsequent crises throughout the history of the nation.192 But as Gerstenberger points out, the alternating of plural and singular speakers can be attributed to the liturgical use of the psalm, and he suggests that the origin and use of Psalm 44 are to be associated with “Jewish worship in Persian times,” the purpose of which in part was to encourage and strengthen congregations in a threatening environment.193
Perhaps more accessible than the question of the origin of Psalm 44 is the issue of its final placement. There are striking linguistic links between Psalms 42–43 and 44 (see Commentary on Psalms 42–43), which open Book II. While Psalms 42–43 seem to be the prayer of an exiled individual, Psalm 44 is the prayer of a scattered people. Together, they set the tone for hearing the rest of the psalms in Book II, and thus they reinforce the ability of the collection to address the perpetually threatened people of God (see Introduction). This recognition allows Psalm 44 to be heard not simply as a historical artifact but as an ongoing theological resource for the people of God as they confront their vocation and the suffering that it inevitably involves (see Reflections below).
Psalm 44 can be divided into four major sections. Verses 1-8 have the character of a profession of faith that is motivated by historical recollection. In view of v. 8b, the section of bitter complaint in vv. 9-16 is unexpected, thus increasing its rhetorical impact. The vehemence of the complaint is perhaps more understandable in the light of vv. 17-22, the people’s protestation of innocence. The psalm culminates in the petition of vv. 23-26.
44:1-8. The book of Deuteronomy directs that children be told of God’s deliverance of the people from Egypt and of God’s gift of the land (Deut 6:20-25), and Psalm 44 begins by affirming that this has happened (see Judg 6:13; Ps 78:3-4). The “you” that begins v. 2 is emphatic. God’s power—symbolized by God’s “hand” (v. 2), “right hand,” (v. 3; see Exod 15:6, 13), and “arm” (v. 3; see Exod 15:16; Ps 77:15)—has been operative in the people’s history. The latter is specifically contrasted in v. 3 with “their own arm.” As in the exodus and holy war traditions (see Exodus 15; Joshua 8–12), God is portrayed as a warrior. The result is “victory” (h[wvy yusû (â, v. 3; lit., “salvation”; see vv. 4, 6, 7; and Exod 15:2 NIV); the nations have been driven out (see Deut 7:17) and the people “planted” (see Exod 15:17; Jer 24:6; 32:41). Whereas in Ps 42:2, the psalmist could not see “the face of God,” Ps 44:3 attributes victory to “the light of your face” (see also Ps 4:6). The section concludes with the observation that Israel’s past has been evidence of God’s love (see Deut 7:7-11, where the same observation is made with different vocabulary; see also Ps 149:4, where the NRSV’s “takes pleasure” translates the same verb here translated “delighted” [hxr rAzâ] and where it also accounts for the people’s “victory”).
The emphatic pronoun “you” opens v. 4 as it did v. 2, focusing attention on God. God’s control of the destiny of nations and peoples—God’s victory—is evidence of God’s sovereignty; so God is addressed as “my King” (see Pss 5:2; 68:24; 74:12; 84:3; see also Exod 15:1-18; Pss 98:1-3; 149:1-7, where God’s “victory”/“salvation,” God’s control of the nations, and God’s reign are explicitly associated; see also Psalm 2; Introduction). In addition to the repetition of “victory,” vv. 4-8 are linked to vv. 1-3 by the repetition of “sword” (vv. 3, 6). While the participation of the people is somewhat more evident in v. 5 than in vv. 2-3, the victory still belongs to God (the word translated “tread down” [swb bûs] is used elsewhere of God as warrior; see Pss 60:12; 108:13; Isa 14:21; 63:6). The people’s trust (v. 6; see Pss 4:5; 9:10; Introduction), boasting (v. 8; see Ps 34:2; cf. Pss 52:1; 97:7), and gratitude (see Pss 75:1; 79:13) are properly directed to God.
44:9-16. Nothing in vv. 1-8 has prepared for the complaint in vv. 9-16. Suddenly, delight has become rejection (v. 9; see v. 23 NIV; see also Pss 43:2; 60:1, 10; 74:1; 77:7; 88:14; 89:38; 108:11); victory has become retreat and defeat (v. 10). God is no longer the good shepherd of the “sheep” (see Pss 74:1; 79:13; 95:7; 100:3). Rather, the sheep are either being killed (v. 11a ;
<Page 857 Ends><Page 858 Begins>
see v. 22; Jer 12:3) or scattered (see Ezek 5:12; 12:14; 20:23). The word “sold” (rkm mAkar, v. 12) recalls former times that were not so auspicious (see Judg 2:14; 3:8; 4:2). The language of vv. 13-16 is similar to that of other individual and communal complaints. The people are taunted (v. 16; see Ps 22:6), derided (see Ps 22:7), and scorned (see Ps 79:4, where all three words occur). The word “byword” (see Ps 69:11) occurs in Deut 28:37 as part of the curses for violating the covenant, thus preparing for the people’s defense in vv. 17-22.
44:17-22. In vv. 20-21, the people suggest that they could accept their misfortune if they had worshiped a “strange god” (see Ps 81:9; Isa 43:12). But they have neither forgotten God (vv. 17, 20) nor violated the covenant (see Deut 4:23; 2 Kgs 17:15). They have not “turned back” (see Ps 78:57), yet they suffer (v. 19; on v. 19a, cf. Isa 34:13; Jer 9:11; 10:22; on v. 19b, cf. Pss 23:4; 107:10). Thus all they can conclude is that their suffering is “Because of you” (v. 22). Verse 22 recalls v. 11a, although the Hebrew words translated “slaughter” differ in the two verses (lkam ma )akAl, v. 11a ; hjbf tibhâ, v. 22). The one in v. 22 occurs also in Isa 53:7 (see Ps 69:7), which is part of the climactic Suffering Servant song, another text that pushes toward new and deeper understandings of suffering (see Reflections below).
44:23-26. Given the people’s conclusion in v. 22, all that they can do is desperately plead for God to wake up (see Pss 7:6; 35:23; 59:4-5) as they bombard God with questions. God is not supposed to sleep (see Ps 121:4); God is not supposed to hide God’s face (see Pss 13:1; 22:24; 27:9); God is not supposed to forget affliction (see Pss 9:12, 18; 10:12; 42:9). A final complaint (v. 25; the NRSV’s “sinks down” translates a verb [hjv sAhâ] that is very similar to “cast down” in Pss 42:5, 11; 43:5) precedes the threefold petition of the concluding verse: “Rise up” (see Pss 3:7; 74:22), “help” (see Pss 22:19; 38:22; 40:13), “redeem” (see Pss 25:22; 34:22). The appeal is to God’s fundamental character: steadfast love (see Exod 34:6-7; Pss 5:7; 6:4; Introduction). While God is the problem, God is also the solution. As Mays suggests, “the last hope of a faithful people is the faithfulness of God.”194
REFLECTIONS
The unexpected movement from vv. 1-8 to vv. 9-16 reveals the pathos of Psalm 44; God’s faithful people suffer, even when they do not deserve it (vv. 17-22). Thus they are left to appeal for help (vv. 23-26) to the one who is apparently the source of the problem (vv. 11, 22). This is the paradox of the individual complaints and of the book of Job as well. For the psalmists and for Job, every experience of life is somehow an experience of God. Like Psalm 44, for instance, Psalm 13 moves from bitter complaint (cf. Ps 13:1 to 44:24) to petition and to the psalmist’s taking a stand on God’s steadfast love (cf. 13:5 to 44:26). The paradox of the complaints pushes toward a profound understanding of suffering (see Commentary on Psalms 13; 22).
Crucial in this regard in Psalm 44 are vv. 11 and 22. In commenting on v. 22, Mays concludes:
“For your sake” meant they could see no other meaning and purpose in their confession and trust [see vv. 1-8] than that they were accounted as sheep for slaughter. But that minimal and doleful interpretation of their suffering opens on the prospect of an understanding of suffering as a service to the kingdom of God. The prospect leads to the suffering servant of Isaiah 53, to Jewish martyrs, and to the cross of Calvary.195
For Israel, the experience of exile and the ongoing afflictions of the post-exilic era necessitated a reconsideration of suffering. While it is not clear that the origin of Psalm 44 can be related to the exile, it is certain that Psalm 44 and other complaints assisted Israel to reach in the
<Page 858 Ends><Page 859 Begins>
post-exilic era a new and profound understanding of its suffering and its vocation. In this regard, the similarity to Isaiah 53 is not surprising (cf. Ps 44:11, 22 to Isa 53:7). Israel came to understand its mission to the world in terms of a suffering that is somehow redemptive.
This understanding of suffering, election, and vocation makes comprehensible the life and death of Jesus Christ. Jesus could even pronounce his followers blessed when they experienced the kind of rejection and derision described in Ps 44:13-16 (see Matt 5:10-11). In his consideration of “the sufferings of this present time” (Rom 8:18 NRSV) that are experienced by “God’s elect” (Rom 8:33 NRSV), the apostle Paul quoted Ps 44:22 (see Rom 8:36) to illustrate the nature of the Christian life. Suffering is not a sign of separation from God or from God’s love; rather, it marks those who have been chosen to follow Jesus Christ (see Mark 8:34-35).
Comments
-
Dan Francis said:
The NIBs price has been reduced greatly, to a normal pre pub pricing. Here is a sample from volume 4. Psalm 44
Thanks again, Dan.
Boy, I really hope we get to use our Logos Credit on this Pre-Pub.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
Dan Francis said:
Suffering is not a sign of separation from God or from God’s love; rather, it marks those who have been chosen to follow Jesus Christ (see Mark 8:34-35).
"Suffering", in and of itself, is not a sign of anything. It very well CAN BE "a sign of separation from God or God's love", but of course, it might not be. The context determines the cause, purpose, and/or meaning.
Odd that an editor didn't deal with this--it's a pretty significant inaccuracy.
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
0 -
David Paul said:
Odd that an editor didn't deal with this--it's a pretty significant inaccuracy.
David Paul, you know the rules of the forums. Please refrain from arguable (theological) assertions. I don't recall if you were around when the some individuals on the forums felt that making a suggestion was running a gauntlet of argument over whether or not a source was useful/correct. We reached an agreement that when others recommended or suggested a resource we would not speak unless we supported the resource. I know this is an unwritten rule that we hope others learn by example. I've taken this offer to make it explicit again.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
MJ. Smith said:David Paul said:
Odd that an editor didn't deal with this--it's a pretty significant inaccuracy.
David Paul, you know the rules of the forums. Please refrain from arguable (theological) assertions. I don't recall if you were around when the some individuals on the forums felt that making a suggestion was running a gauntlet of argument over whether or not a source was useful/correct. We reached an agreement that when others recommended or suggested a resource we would not speak unless we supported the resource. I know this is an unwritten rule that we hope others learn by example. I've taken this offer to make it explicit again.
I will keep this in mind, but it seems a strange rule, especially if one is asking for honest opinion about a resource. I don't know if this NEW Interpreter's Bible is related to the Interpreter's Bible, but I bought a multi-volume copy of the latter from a used book store years ago and was thoroughly unimpressed, to state it as positively as I can.
I will keep in mind not to ask resource evaluation questions on the forum unless I desire to receive only a rose-tinged reply.
FWIW, I don't see how my first comment was "arguable"...there are multiple extended passages that illustrate suffering being intentionally inflicted at times as a result of God's wrath. My comment was intended to draw attention to the writing (i.e. use of grammatical and semantic logic) and editing of the resource.
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
0 -
David Paul said:
I will keep this in mind, but it seems a strange rule, especially if one is asking for honest opinion about a resource.
Ah, I wasn't clear. If someone requests information about a resource then give your honest opinion - an you are free to ask others opinions. It's when a resource is suggested or pushed for purchase that silence is the best form of disagreement.
David Paul said:I don't see how my first comment was "arguable"..
I've only had one course in theodicy but wikipedia lists the following proposed answers - so I suspect any position is arguable.[:)]
Contents
[hide]- 1 Detailed arguments
- 2 Answers and theodicies
- 2.1 Lacking omnibenevolence, omniscience, or omnipotence
- 2.2 Free will
- 2.3 Consequences of sin
- 2.4 Soul-making or Irenaean Theodicy
- 2.5 Afterlife
- 2.6 Humanity's limited knowledge
- 2.7 Definition of evil as absence of good
- 2.8 Evil is an illusion
- 2.9 Evil is complementary to good
- 2.10 "Evil" suggests an ethical law
- 2.11 No best of all possible worlds
- 2.12 Satan
- 2.13 God's nature is freedom and/or agency giving love
- 3 General criticisms of all defenses and theodicies
- 4 By religion
- 5 By philosophers
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
I think the so-called "problem of evil" stems mostly from the fact that people think God can't do things He clearly does. Sovereignty and the inability to sin provide Him that luxury.
That, and general ignorance of the fact that the word "evil" is literally a RELATIVE term in the Bible. According to the Bible's own usage, Satan can rightly call "evil" YHWH's attempts (and eventual ultimate success) in thwarting his adversarial will. The word means nothing more than "that which one doesn't want to happen." While evil CAN BE equated to sin in certain situations, it is NOT always the case. About 2/3 of the time this word-idea is mentioned, YHWH openly proclaims Himself to be the author of evil, though He often makes use of agents.
A simple search on the word in Logos will confirm this.
Replacing the (inherently relative) phrase " the problem of evil" with "the problem of sin" (a better and more Biblical approach), one must still recognize that sin isn't (as is often assumed) something that we consider unacceptable...it is something (by definition) that God considers unacceptable. He may well have no problem at all with allowing many of the things we find unacceptable. Any "perceived" problem is ours, not His.
The problem with nearly all "examinations" of this subject, such as the one you provided above (not that it's your opinion) usually begins at outline step 1.1--the logic in presenting the "logical problem" is flawed and illogical.
Since that is the case here, and with most other issues, I suppose you are right. Virtually anything can be fodder for an argument. Starting with wrong premises will rarely lead to contented agreement.
I wonder what the NIB says about this??? (Actually, not really...I'm just trying to steer back to the OP).
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
0 -
There is a danger here to blame all "evil" (sorrow & suffering & decay) on sin. John 9:2-3 supports both your assertion and mine. Our perception of suffering makes us demand an answer from a higher power for justification for allowing such to happen. I find it interesting Muslims teach Allah reserves the right to condemn a faithful follower if he chooses. They say Allah has more sovereignty than the God of Christians because Allah is not bound by his own promises. At least that is what a Muslim told me. I have not studied Islam in earnest.David Paul said:Replacing the (inherently relative) phrase " the problem of evil" with "the problem of sin" (a better and more Biblical approach),
{ I'm looking forward to the latest two Community Pricing collections. Samuel Zwemer , Islamic Studies }
David Paul said:I wonder what the NIB says about this???
No one resource is going to deal with every approach to a subject. My solution to their limitations is to just buy more resources.
edit: I am not discussing the Fall or effect of sin entering a perfect creation. (That would be theological discussion.) I am only questioning man's ability to truly determine what is "evil."
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
Are we playing good cop, bad cop today?
MJ. Smith said:Please refrain from arguable (theological) assertions.
Super Tramp said:There is a danger here to blame all "evil" (sorrow & suffering & decay) on sin. John 9:2-3 supports both your assertion and mine. Our perception of suffering makes us demand an answer from a higher power for justification for allowing such to happen. I find it interesting Muslims teach Allah reserves the right to condemn a faithful follower if he chooses. They say Allah has more sovereignty than the God of Christians because Allah is not bound by his own promises.
Super Tramp said:I am not discussing the Fall or effect of sin entering a perfect creation. (That would be theological discussion.) I am only questioning man's ability to truly determine what is "evil."
Denying the fact that one is making arguable (theological) assertions does not change what they are. Attempting to convince others that your dog is a cat, will not stop it from barking.Brad Fry said:The reminders that these forums are to discuss Logos Bible Software would have greater credibility if this was done across the board and on a consistent basis.
0 -
I think this comment keeps in line with discussion of the resource, not discussion of the theological topic.
Keep in mind that this is a commentary on a specific passage that deals with suffering, not a comprehensive theological treatment of the topic of suffering as a whole. I would say that, in the context of this psalm, everything the commentator says is justified and to say more would be go to beyond the scope of this passage.
0 -
Is there more than one conclusion that can be reached when reading the passage? If so,Stating one view is an arguable assertion.Mitchell Ebbott said:I think this comment keeps in line with discussion of the resource, not discussion of the theological topic.
MJ. Smith said:Please refrain from arguable (theological) assertions.
MJ. Smith said:I've only had one course in theodicy but wikipedia lists the following proposed answers - so I suspect any position is arguable.
(Emphasis Mine)Super Tramp said:John 9:2-3 supports both your assertion and mine.
0 -
Do you need a list of Logos resources that address your study focus today?
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
Very true. It is not a theological dictionary. Addressing the whole subject would go way beyond the scope of the commentary since the text itself does not.Mitchell Ebbott said:Keep in mind that this is a commentary on a specific passage
For a broader treatment of the "problem of evil" here are just a few Logos resources:
- The Problem of Evil and its Symbols in Jewish and Christian Tradition
- Problems in Theology 2: Evil
- The Roots of Evil
- Biblical Counseling Keys on Evil & Suffering...Why?
- Evil and the Justice of God by Wright, N. T.
- Naming the Silences: God, Medicine, and the Problem of Suffering
I really appreciate Dan's original post for what it is. Another great sampling of a resource people should know about. An informed customer is a smart customer.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
That's the whole point There is no consensus among the referees.Super Tramp said:Funny, I missed the part where someone promoted a theological view.
MJ. Smith said:We reached an agreement that when others recommended or suggested a resource we would not speak unless we supported the resource. I know this is an unwritten rule that we hope others learn by example.
MJ. Smith said:Please refrain from arguable (theological) assertions.
Funny, I assumed that the forum was made up entirely of men ( humans). Have you been promoted to a loftier status?Super Tramp said:I will agree that in the reasoning of men one can argue for a flat earth
0 -
Believe Paul nailed another one. He's good. That's unfortunate, since the thread simply encourages a very good resource and one that would benefit Logos as well.
But the theological discussion is interesting; I didn't know the relativity of evil; will have to do a search/study on that.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
0 -
Please don't get me wrong. I strongly encourage discussion. I am, However, offended when only Some discussions are allowed. And it seems the allowable discussions are the ones the MVP's choose to participate in. (until it is obvious they are losing the debate...then they invoke the forum guidelines or lose interest in the discussion)DMB said:But the theological discussion is interesting
Super Tramp said:I am no longer interested in engaging off-topic negativity, even with people I agree with.
0 -
Paul Oertly said:
That's the whole point There is no consensus among the referees
We are not here to form a consensus. (That would be impossible) We are here to help Logos Bible software users.
I am no longer interested in engaging off-topic negativity, even with people I agree with. [;)]
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
When a group of individuals is responsible for officiating a game...it is imperative that they all read from the same playbook, or pandemonium erupts. Oh wait ! That is what is happening here.Super Tramp said:Paul Oertly said:That's the whole point There is no consensus among the referees
We are not here to form a consensus.
0 -
Paul Oertly said:
here is no consensus among the referees
As I say frequently, I can only take responsibility for my own actions.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
Then, who is this We you speak of?MJ. Smith said:Paul Oertly said:there is no consensus among the referees
As I say frequently, I can only take responsibility for my own actions.
MJ. Smith said:We reached an agreement that when others recommended or suggested a resource we would not speak unless we supported the resource.
0 -
<deleted>
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
Another boring thread that has nothing to do with Logos Bible Software.[|-)]
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
(in reply to MJ's post which she deleted)
If you read what I wrote above, I think you could identify the issue....An individual who reprimands others for discussions/debates/arguable assertions, then cheerfully discusses, debates, and asserts. You called David Paul on the same issues. Why shouldn't S.T. be challenged?
MJ. Smith said:"We" refers to a consensus of forum users
Obviously, S.T. is not part of your consensus, which further supports my premise.Super Tramp said:We are not here to form a consensus. (That would be impossible)
0 -
Paul, MJ, Super Tramp: hey, why don't you all go out to the park and play. it's a nice day. possibility of snow tomorrow.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
0 -
Dan DeVilder said:
Paul, MJ, Super Tramp: hey, why don't you all go out to the park and play. it's a nice day. possibility of snow tomorrow.
Maybe mommy won't let them out [;)]
0 -
It would be my luck that we would all end up at the same park.Dan DeVilder said:Paul, MJ, Super Tramp: hey, why don't you all go out to the park and play.
0 -
MJ
You are getting faster at deleting your posts...But I saw both of them. Can you see how making allowances for extenuating circumstances can be misinterpreted by common folk? How can you know that David Paul, nor I do not have extenuating circumstances of our own? In the future, If I want to ignore the rules, Can I play the extenuating circumstances card?
0 -
Another boring thread that has nothing to do with Logos Bible Software.[|-)]
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
Paul Oertly said:
Then, who is this We you speak of?
In the midst of a former forum implosion many forum members (including but not limited to several MVP's / Emphasis: other non-MVP's too!) determined that we were guilty of fanning flames and determined to try not to continue doing that. We (all) are only moderately successful in the ongoing attempt. But this is a software forum, not a theology forum.
Fact is it's hard to be dispassionate when you have an opinion. I think everyone here loves theology, the Bible and Christ. (Yes it's a generalization, please grant it to me.) With that many passionate people in one place it becomes even more difficult to not stray into theological territory. The MVP's are supposed to be here to answer questions according to our varied expertise with the tools and the resources. No matter who we are, we (MVP's) mean the best - even when we can't perfectly deliver it.The guidelines here are a bit like a photoshop forum asking it's participants not to debate digital art - but only to discuss the tools they provide. Yeah.
Back to the tool discussion.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you.
0 -
Paul Oertly said:
It would be my luck that we would all end up at the same park.Dan DeVilder said:Paul, MJ, Super Tramp: hey, why don't you all go out to the park and play.
now that gave me a good chuckle. [:D]
peace.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
0 -
Thomas;TCBlack said:we were guilty of fanning flames and determined to try not to continue doing that. We (all) are only moderately successful in the ongoing attempt.
My issue is certainly not with you. You are not even on my list of heavy handed, dictatorial, hypocritical individuals who are wolves in sheep's clothing. They fan the flames in one thread, then run next door and chastise others for the same thing. I pointed out what I believe to be a perfect example of that. As of yet, no one has changed my mind. God Bless
0 -
Paul Oertly said:
MJ
You are getting faster at deleting your posts...But I saw both of them
Paul, I . . . ummm, I'd just let it go. I see people locking horns (and I am not assigning blame nor trying to take sides) and it seems like a no-win situation. MJ gives a lot of help on these forums. I appreciate her for that. I'd sure like to get to know you more, too. But the back-and-forth stuff really won't be helpful. As for deleting it, I don't see what is wrong with that. I wish I could delete some of the words that come out of my mouth. I also hope for some grace from others, and sometimes, I am surprised with it. that is very refreshing.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
0 -
Dan;Dan DeVilder said:MJ gives a lot of help on these forums. I appreciate her for that.
Thanks for your attempt at peacemaking. However, you seem to misunderstand the situation. My issue was not with MJ. We were just having a calm discussion about an issue I had with another individual. She said she didn't understand the issue. I suggested she go back and re-read my posts. That's when she deleted the second post and apparently decided to end our discussion. She had said that she had to treat this individual differently because of extenuating circumstances...that she had hoped that he would edit or delete the posts on his own. I can't see that it has happened. If you truly want to understand what went on, I invite you to read the whole thread as well. Thanks again for your concern.
Edit: Now he has edited some of the inflammatory posts. Guess he just needed a nudge.
0 -
Paul Oertly said:
If you truly want to understand what went on, I invite you to read the whole thread as well. Thanks again for your concern.
you've caught me. i generally am more hit-and-run.
Paul Oertly said:Edit: Now he has edited some of the inflammatory posts.
[Y]
THanks for your words, Paul. But you are correct that I might be more helpful if I was more engaged and thorough. At the same time, these threads take a lot of work and sometimes things seem to get out of hand over a lot of threads. Having been around on the forums since L4 rolled out in 09, I usually come here looking for interesting threads or looking to see where I can be of help (which is much less help than a lot of MVPs can give, because my tech expertise is far beneath theirs.) I generally don't want to wade through arguments. none of us really do.
whoops. my wife's boy scout den leader mtg is over, and we are leaving McD's. Peace out.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
0 -
Paul Oertly said:
She said she didn't understand the issue. I suggested she go back and re-read my posts. That's when she deleted the second post and apparently decided to end our discussion. She had said that she had to treat this individual differently because of extenuating circumstances...that she had hoped that he would edit or delete the posts on his own. I can't see that it has happened. If you truly want to understand what went on, I invite you to read the whole thread as well. Thanks again for your concern.
Edit: Now he has edited some of the inflammatory posts. Guess he just needed a nudge.
To avoid speculation, I will confirm that you have correctly described the deleted post. I try hard to be even handed. On the other hand, that doesn't always mean that my approach is identical. As an extreme case, I did not treat my foster daughter (now adopted) who was coming out of her 3rd failed adoption in 10 years of foster care the same way I treated my foster son who had been in foster care for 3 years and has cerebral palsy (he's back in my home at 35). So, yes, the way I try to guide behavior into the forum guideline is different for different people just as foster teens need to be treated differently to mold them into competent adults. And, yes, outside this thread, I have come to understand where ST & I misunderstood each other.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
So, I ask again...Do you you not see that a casual observer ( without benefit of what you just told us) might construe Your actions as unfair/preferential treatment?MJ. Smith said:So, yes, the way I try to guide behavior into the forum guideline is different for different people
I refuse to ignore the elephant in the room. Before an individual can recover, they must admit they have a problem. Allowing them to escape the consequences of their actions only prolongs the agony. God Bless
0 -
Paul...were you invited to correct MJ? I ask because you present yourself as having some kind of appropriate place to do so, over a rather insignificant issue. I'm not sure why you feel you ought to or have place to?
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
0 -
MJ and I were having a conversation, Until you Butted In. Are you sure you even know what we are discussing? MJ is quite capable of speaking for herself. She has shown no indication that she is offended. If/when she does, I will apologize/answer to her... Not you. Have a good day.David Paul said:Paul...were you invited to correct MJ?
0 -
Actually, pal, you are doing it in my face...and the face of every single person on this PUBLIC forum. Don't pretend it's a private conversation...er, correction, that you are engaged in.
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
0 -
Paul Oertly said:
Edit: Now he has edited some of the inflammatory posts. Guess he just needed a nudge.
To keep you from inflating your misrepresentation I now include snapshots of what you are calling "inflammatory posts." Let the readers decide for themselves if I have been out of line in dealing with the juvenile behavior in this thread.
The last post I made was unfairly critical of MJ for being too nice to you when you did not deserve it. There was nothing inflammatory in it either.
I am not here to amuse posters who don't care to discuss Logos Bible software. I just don't have time for it. I want to help real Logos users any way I can. That is who the forums belong to, not to some stand-up comedy troupe.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
MJ. Smith said:
And, yes, outside this thread, I have come to understand where ST & I misunderstood each other.
And I have finally come to understand our misunderstanding. You are an intelligent and classy lady. Thanks.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
0 -
Super Tramp said:
Another boring thread that has nothing to do with Logos Bible Software.
Hey "Super Tramp" don't get too bored! I may have to paint another crazy portrait of you!
0 -
agreedSuper Tramp said:Let the readers decide
0 -
Paul Oertly said:
Do you you not see that a casual observer ( without benefit of what you just told us) might construe Your actions as unfair/preferential treatment?
You are correct. It is easy to forget that people new to the forums+ or making rare appearances can easily misconstrue the response to individuals. In my case I can think of at least 4 people that get a wider berth than others because I know enough about them to know that they mean no harm. And regulars on the forums know that their crossing outside forum guidelines will not lead to a flare up in the forum. No one wants their posts deleted.
It is also true that the forum guidelines are more apt to be referenced when a thread has been locked, pruned or deleted because it got out of hand. Especially when the thread features posters who've had more than their share of posts/threads removed.
It also probably follows that much of the joking around among regulars may be misconstrued. I will try to remember this lesson the next time the forums go on a bashing binge.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
I will revert to observing. I hope the regulars enjoy chatting with one another. God BlessMJ. Smith said:And regulars on the forums know that their crossing outside forum guidelines will not lead to a flare up in the forum.
0 -
Nina Jones said:Super Tramp said:
Another boring thread that has nothing to do with Logos Bible Software.
Hey "Super Tramp" don't get too bored! I may have to paint another crazy portrait of you!
wow, I LOVE that painting!! Great fun!
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
0