REQUEST: Make middle mouse button autoscrolling work in L4

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Posts 8644
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 13 2009 6:42 AM

Bradley Grainger:
Even Microsoft has yet to release a major application that uses WPF; Visual Studio 2010 (coming in March next year) is the only one I can think of.)
Seriously though, I can readily see why this will lead to broader adaptation by fall of 2010.  Once the programmers see it, they'll use it.

Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

Posts 8681
LogosEmployee

Thomas Black:

Seriously though, I can readily see why this will lead to broader adaptation by fall of 2010.  Once the programmers see it, they'll use it.

Agreed; and from what we've heard, having a powerful "client" inside Microsoft has really helped motivate the WPF team to fix a lot of bugs and performance problems. (Unfortunately, we have to upgrade to .NET 4.0--which won't be ready till next year--to take advantage of these improvements.)

Posts 347
Mitch Davis | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 13 2009 7:34 AM

My mouse wheel worked from as early in the Beta as I can remember...and even remember noting how simply scrolling in each window pane (without the need to click on that pane to give it focus) worked when hovering over that pane.

Posts 8644
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 13 2009 7:48 AM

Mitch Davis:

My mouse wheel worked from as early in the Beta as I can remember...and even remember noting how simply scrolling in each window pane (without the need to click on that pane to give it focus) worked when hovering over that pane.

Right you can roll the mouse, but you can't CLICK the center button to bring up automated scrolling.  (So you can just lean back and absorb)

Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

Posts 8644
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 3 2009 7:17 AM

Bradley Grainger:

Autoscroll is already implemented (in internal builds) for resources; it should be in 4.0a.

It appears to be working in b2, which I just discovered this morning, (http://community.logos.com/forums/p/6292/48737.aspx#48737)

Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

Posts 273
Ken Avery | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 3 2009 7:20 AM

Bradley Grainger:

Bohuslav Wojnar:

Will we be able to scroll also on the touch pads on the notebooks?

I don't think anyone has looked into that yet, but we do have a notebook with a (non-functional in Logos 4) touchpad here, so we have the environment to reproduce the problem and test a fix.

The OS should not know the difference between the mouse scroll and touchpad scroll; in other words, it will work Smile

Posts 8644
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 3 2009 7:20 AM

Ken, I suspect that's contingent on how WPF handles this.  I believe that's the problem, else it never would have been an issue.

Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

Posts 273
Ken Avery | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 3 2009 7:24 AM

Thomas Black:

Ken, I suspect that's contingent on how WPF handles this.  I believe that's the problem, else it never would have been an issue.

Interesting, I have never seen a difference between my HP Portable and my mouse using any program, they both function the same.

I just read thru the issue; it sounds like the touchpad is working fine; though, WPF is detecting the scrollpad and then throwing away the WM_MOUSEWHEEL event; bad Microsoft WPF!

Posts 18899
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 16 2009 1:08 PM

Bohuslav Wojnar:

Bradley Grainger:
Non-scrolling with touchpads is actually due to a WPF bug (https://connect.microsoft.com/VisualStudio/feedback/ViewFeedback.aspx?FeedbackID=453632&wa=wsignin1.0) that we can't fix. It may be fixed in .NET 4.0 (expected to be released in March 2010); if so, an upgraded version of Logos 4 (that runs on .NET 4.0) would be able to deliver that fix to you.

Thanks Bradley. How I said it, you always have some good news for us? well, not this time. Sad I use the touch-pad all the time. I don't understand guys who has to carry a mouse with the notebook. Hmm... It looks I will have to change my attitude.

You can use PageUp & PageDown as a workaround.

Posts 2744
Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 21 2009 10:53 AM

Rosie Perera:
You can use PageUp & PageDown as a workaround.

I like your optimism Rosie Smile You know, I am so used to do scrolling with the touch-pad that to remember not to do it in Logos is really difficult.

But, hey, I just wanted to update on that:  If you use the Logos 4.0a RC, you can use the auto-scrolling function. That's good news. In my notebook (Dell XPS) I have to click both left and right touch-pad button and this way I get to the auto scrolling mode. Good job Logos.

P.S. Of course regular scrolling/sliding with the touch-pad is very much needed, but apparently it is a problem of Microsoft, not Logos.

Bohuslav

Posts 3704
BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 21 2009 11:08 AM

Bohuslav Wojnar:
I like your optimism Rosie Smile

Yes +1

Grace & Peace,
Bill


MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
Samsung S9+, 64GB
Fire 10HD 64GB 7th Gen

Posts 10
David M. Hunt | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 6 2010 1:02 PM

I know that this topic may have been, all but, "written off" since the last words seemed to be more of a "Dear John" abandonment letter than anything else, and reads like this:

Dear User,

"Don't look at us; it's not our fault, it's a bug in Microsoft's WPF, that we chose to build Logos4 upon, so standby ... but DON'T hold your breath. We've heard that help might be on its way ... Next Year ... in the spring ... perhaps ...

Maybe ... Possibly ... Eventually ... We'd imagine ... We think, or at least Hope ...?

Anyhow ... going to Vegas to find ourselves, don't forget to feed the dog, Bye!"

Signed,

Logos4

BUT

I would like to correct this apparent flaw in the logic here, and if nothing else is  done by Logos, or "can" be done, (something can always be done), at least I will have attempted to bring clarity to the issue.  Let me give a simple reminder, posed as a question and as a means to illuminate the essence of Logos4's conclusion to this topic:

Of the 2 Companies  that could be said to be "responsible" for this (i.e. Microsoft and Logos4) which of them did I make my payment to, and which of them accepted, and benefited from it?!?

My point, in the case that it was missed: I am concerned little with WHAT it is,  WHOSE fault it is, or that it might even, very well, be an MS problem; nor do I need confirmation of that ... it would change little, since I didn't pay to use MS's WPF software, I paid to use Logos4's software. So, the only thing that identifying the "responsible party" would change is that my purchase of Logos4 would be a disappointment, thus far to me, because its developers chose a foundation, upon which to place their software, that could not deliver to me the most basic of my needs/expectations. i.e. The NAVIGATION of that software. Rather than it being a disappointment to me because its developers chose an adequate tool, but implemented it poorly. The difference between those two conclusions is all that changes.

Either way, to someone like me, who is unwilling to spend time unlearning and 'regressing' in their software navigation, it comes back to the fact that, Loogos4's response is unacceptable and flawed (especially in a day of rampant blame-shifting, while we're stuck here sojourning with a people incapable of taking responsibility) my inability to use this new purchase, is a burden laid squarely at the feet of Logos4, I am not angry, hostile, bitter, etc., that's just the facts of the matter. Therefore a response like "it's not our fault" is unacceptable, and in like manner, a response such as "we can't do anything about it, it's out of our control - but be patient, without holding your breath, it will be fixed at some point.", is equally unacceptable.

Let's step back a few feet and take a look at the larger picture:

If the purchase can't do what it is supposed to, and the problem cannot currently be fixed by Logos4, but instead creates a situation, for a handful of its customers, where avoiding the use of their software purchase is the preferred solution, then at the very least, a more becoming response by royalty like ourselves, who have been called to that which we've been called to, might possibly be something along the lines of: sincere apologies ... acceptance of responsibility for the product that we sold - (and *gasp* THE ENTIRE PRODUCT, at that) ... and perhaps even some form of compensation, or consolation offering to the handful of effected users (i.e. those who have been, diligently and hopefully, tracking this thread in hopes of soon being able to endure the use of their new software). Any of those, or a combination thereof,  would be much more noble, and fitting responses for royalty like us (i.e. us and our family members at Logos4, as I would confidently assume there are)

Furthermore, if my payment, to Logos4, for Logos4 "bounced" I would feel pretty silly blaming someone else who I may rely on (even if I could, and it were the truth). I was the one who clicked "Buy Now", not them. Likewise, to say "I'll pay you eventually, just be patient ... the check will be in the mail, someday ..." is not something I could do either. Not only would I not be able to leave it like that, in good conscience, Logos4 WOULD NOT ALLOW ME TO LEAVE IT LIKE THAT, right?

So, regardless of "who is responsible for" this SIGNIFICANT shortcoming in a very basic feature within the software that I purchased. I am letting YOU know (Logos4) that YOUR product does not meet even the most basic expectations of mine; navigation of the software, to the point that I have yet to use it for more than 10 minutes before frustration overwhelms the desire to use the software. This expectation is indeed a "basic" feature of any software, in this day and age, but it would MORE ACCURATELY be referred to as a FUNDAMENTAL feature for software like Logos4 ... software which lends itself to multiple small reading panes being simultaneously opened and used.


Thank you for receiving my counsel,

David M. Hunt

Posts 10
David M. Hunt | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 6 2010 1:16 PM

(I wanted to break my post up, so it wasn't so overwhelming looking, and reduce the cahances it were even read - so here are my other thoughts on this)

Unfortunately, (or I should probably say - "Fortunately") - I am not afforded the same liberties that the sheer-toting overseer of  a wealthy flock  may enjoy. Even though I have been provided with the desires of my heart, I do not have, at my immediate disposal, the monetary resources which even less-wealthy sheep, but a multitude of them, might provide. I do not draw a salary or any other benefits, we do not have a mortgage and, ultimately, every dollar that we collect goes to a number of true missionaries; we hold the rope, they climb down it.

Therefore, after much consideration and prayer, since it is by no means a necessity per se, we (my wife and I) made the difficult decision to sink a few hundred dollars into the Logos4 software. Months have passed and I have yet been able to use it, despite dozens of attempts. I feel a little sheepish now, since the purchase was driven by my belief that Logos4 would effectively help me optimize the never-quite-enough-time syndrome that I am afflicted with while preparing messages, and based on the infinite depth of God's Word. So, while not the result of poor design or substandard software, in and of itself, the fact still remains that the exact opposite is true ... my preparation with Logos4 is more grueling and tedious than it's ever been. Instead of increasing efficiency I have reverted back to the tried and true "freebies", that I've come to know and love, and that just seem to work. They may be less powerful than Logos4, but I haven't the desire to compare resources, since I get frustrated navigating without scroll. You might be surprised at "why", I prefer not to use L4, but regardless of any criticisms or scoffing at the seemingly "trivial" nature of my inability to endure it, the truth still remains to be the truth.

Every time that I decide to give it a try again, since it's killing me to have it just sit there idle (or perhaps 'idol' - still praying about that one!), I get 5 or 10 minutes into it, and am ready to shave ALL of the hair off my head with a razor!!!

(OK, confession time - - That "shaving all of my hair off" part - was nothing more than Oscar-Worthy dramatics, since I do that every other day anyhow - - But, while typing that I had the BACK of my right hand firmly pressed against my FOREHEAD, my head TIPPED BACK and my eyes CLOSED - yeah, it was sweet, I know!  ... but you get my point!!)

It is too painful for me to try to intentionally "unlearn" the efficiency of scrolling that I've come to appreciate over the years, in using the center scroll button on my laptop.

I have installed the latest Beta (Or Release Candidates) and keep trying to update regularly ...

(I use a Lenovo Thinkpad ((IBM)) XP Pro - Here is a picture, to avoid confusion about what my expectations are - I use the middle BLUE scroll button in the picture - http://media.laptoplogic.com/data/reviews/images/73/ultranav.jpg )

I have no desire to 'go backwards'; the year is 2010, and my expectations surround technology that has been seamlessly available for many years; I am referring to scroll wheels, not necessarily WPF ... although WPF has been around for MANY years ALSO. To use Logos4 I need to constantly transfer the mindless, sub-conscious, act of scrolling through a pane , to my conscious mind, reminding myself, every time, to use the "arrows" instead ... "use the arrows" ... "use the arrows" ... "use the arrows" - (Since even the vertical scroll bars are incapable of working very well in "real-time" i.e. they can't keep up with the cursor - annoying latency ... and my laptop is in the upper echelon, as far as system resources, and especially as far as its Front Side Bus goes (FSB) - This  leaves the arrows the only "pseudo-solution" available to me So, until this issue is resolved by Microsoft, Logos or a combination thereof, I will remain eager to actually test drive my investment, while also remaining a little disheartened by it all. By the time a solution is provided, more than half a year or maybe even year  (by then) will have gone by since forfeiting ownership of my money to Logos.


*steps down from soap box, and returns to battle*


Thank you for entertaining my rant,


David M. Hunt

Posts 3704
BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 6 2010 1:21 PM

Bohuslav Wojnar:
click both left and right touch-pad button and this way I get to the auto scrolling mode

Obviously, YMMV. Mine doesn't. Crying

Grace & Peace,
Bill


MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
Samsung S9+, 64GB
Fire 10HD 64GB 7th Gen

Posts 2720
DominicM | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 6 2010 1:22 PM

I hope we can help you resolve your issues.. is it just scrolling issues?

Have you didcussed your frustrations with Customer Services?  If you are really unhappy you do have the 30day money back guarantee, but hope we can work through you issues?

Bob Pritchett ( CEO/President) reads all thes posts, and is humble enough to stick his hands up and so "we got it wrong", if he believes it was

Speaking Personally as a Software engineer (for a moment) rather than a User. I think Logos have made the right choice in choosing WPF/mono, but respect your decision to disagree

..

Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have

Posts 3704
BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 6 2010 1:38 PM

Hi David,

I don't even have a middle button with which to engage auto-scrolling (scroll bars on a synaptics touchpad eliminate the need in every other app). And I have RSI in both wrists, after a long career on the keyboard in Info Systems. I'm constantly optimizing my work to eliminate keystrokes. Having to page instead of scroll is a hardship, not an inconvenience. All this is to say I feel your pain...

I won't try to sell you on L4's benefits, as you seem to be keeping your toes in the waters & increasing your use as it permits / you are productive.

Have you thought about installing L3 & using your L4 library in back in L3, in the interim? L3 is tried & true... scrolling works... and you'll still have L4 for what it does better. Many of us have both going (me included).

Here's a link to installation for L3: http://www.logos.com/support/downloads/ldls 

And here's a link to use your L4 resources back in L3: http://blog.logos.com/archives/2009/12/using_your_new_logos_4_resources_in_logos_3_or_logos_for_mac_1.html

Blessings!

 

Grace & Peace,
Bill


MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
Samsung S9+, 64GB
Fire 10HD 64GB 7th Gen

Posts 10
David M. Hunt | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 6 2010 5:40 PM

I am encouraged by your reply, and was not aware of options other than this forum - and am not looking for any "grease" for this squeaky wheel, anyhow ... just want to voice my view ...

I ALSO agree with your stance as WPF being the right call - DEFINITELY ... I didn't mean to suggest that there was a better solution available, just that more than a "Sorry guys, it is what it is" conclusion should be offered ... I will tip a litlte more of my hand (haven't yet, because I didn't want anything to muddy the waters and divert attention from the fundamental issues I'm having. Either way however, I know a number of WPF gurus, and have dear friends who are actually on Micro$oft's payroll as WPF programmers ... and COMPLETELY understand that WPF is "it" ... but as I tried to layout, that is not the point ... but rather the point, in a nutshell, is that I paid for software that, at the present, prefer not to use, due to it's inability to meet my most BASIC needs (and not 'an inexpensive, run of the mill, $50 hobbyist developed software - but a well-respected, "industry" standard software, which touts a fairly significant initial investment.

I am not trying to be contrary to your quick, and VERY appreciated response ... once again, just laying out things as I see them "from my end"


David M. Hunt

Posts 10
David M. Hunt | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 6 2010 5:46 PM

 My last post was to Dominic, sorry for not clarifying ... also, I wasn't aware of another option than these forums ... Thank You!!

 

Bill s - Thank you for the heads up about L3 ... wasn't even aware that was an option ... not ideal, but is anything ever; I may give that a shot - Thank You!!!


David M. Hunt

Posts 3704
BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 7 2010 5:17 PM

David M. Hunt:

Bill s - Thank you for the heads up about L3 ... wasn't even aware that was an option ... not ideal, but is anything ever; I may give that a shot - Thank You!!!

Thank Logos, not me.... Smile

I was a beta tester & got to see the strategy rolled out... It was part of Bob's STRATEGY for an early rollout to ensure that L4's incompleteness couldn't hold us back. As PART of the rollout strategy, they provided those scripts to ENSURE we could use all our new resources.

For me, the biggest hurdle for Logos to overcome for full acceptance of L4 has always been how good L3 already was--and still is. Yet I still find myself drawn to the power & richness of L4... so I keep my toes in the water, too, using it more & more as they finish it. 

Many blessings to you!

Grace & Peace,
Bill


MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
Samsung S9+, 64GB
Fire 10HD 64GB 7th Gen

Posts 18899
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 22 2010 7:11 PM

David M. Hunt and others: here is some good news for all of you who have had the Synaptics touchpad problem. Windows appears to have fixed it in the latest update (Windows 7 anyway; if you're still on Vista, you will have to check to see if there has been a comparable fix released for Vista): http://community.logos.com/forums/p/16042/141059.aspx#141059

I hope Logos is now finally vindicated that this wasn't their fault.

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